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RE: On Clingy Submissives - 12/28/2007 1:22:13 PM   
SeeksOnlyOne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

Edited to say I misunderstood...oops


lol-moi? misunderstood? say it aint so

have a great evening

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in those moments of solitude, does everyone sometimes think they are insane? or is it just me?

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RE: On Clingy Submissives - 12/28/2007 1:22:40 PM   
jakeskajira


Posts: 87
Joined: 9/19/2007
Status: offline 		I am a slave who is very content to entertain herself and be alone. My Master has intentionally put me in positions to make me feel and act clingly with him. he has pushed me emotionally and mentally until I was enslaved internally, in my heart and my head... and he encourages my clinginess... when I start getting distant with him, he tightens the reigns. Clinginess can be useful trait or tool for a Master or Mistress.. but also it comes down to personal beliefs and personality matches.  My Master will often put me in situations where I could ignore him, or I could cling to him, clinging to him is what he would wish of me and I do my best to predict his moods.


Master doesn't just "want" me to want him.. Master wants me to "need" him.. to rely, depend and need him as if he was the air I breath or the water to quench my thirst. and I thank him for that.


< Message edited by jakeskajira -- 12/28/2007 1:24:00 PM >

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RE: On Clingy Submissives - 12/28/2007 1:27:08 PM   
SeeksOnlyOne


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Status: offline 		owned, i get what you are saying about the abuse.....i was abused emotionally and it took me so long to figure it out, looking back i am amazed.

i think sexyred made a good point about in many ways its all semantics.....i wont allow me to need someone ever again, as needing them would indicate i cant live without them.

that doesnt mean i wont fall head over heels some day and desire and crave someone and end up in a pile of jelly on the floor.....just in my mind, not allowing it to become a need will let me know i will be all right, even if it doesnt work out.

again, thanks for all the different viewpoints.

and Merc, somehow i think you and beth do a lot of clinging all the time ya'll are together. and i find that adorable.  i said it before, the respect and love and joy ya'll get from each other shows in every word either of you type.

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it aint no good til it hurts just a little bit....jimmy somerville

in those moments of solitude, does everyone sometimes think they are insane? or is it just me?

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RE: On Clingy Submissives - 12/28/2007 2:31:26 PM   
velvetears


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SeeksOnlyOne

~FR~

to me, needing someone means i could not exist without them. i need oxygen. i thought i needed my ex husband, and was sure the day he left i would shrivel up and die.

but i didnt die.  i became stronger than i have even been in my life.  i could never go back to the mindset of needing another human being for my happiness.  my happiness and contentment is within me.  and i will always keep it there....i feel it is my responsibility to feed it and keep it healthy.  the thought of handing that responsibility to someone else just does not work.  for me.

i need to know that no matter what, i will be ok, alone or with someone.  that is the only way i am capable of giving all i have to someone else....knowing that if the relationship ends, i will be all right, and somehow richer for the experiences we had.

for me, thats how it is.


This has been a very interesting thread to read, and every reply has been of value to me, but i feel most in tune with this reply above.  Everyone needs but not everyone is needy - i think of needy as taking and not giving a heck of a lot back.  It is satisfying something insecure in oneself to be needy.  It means someone is so lacking, there is such a deficit that it has gone from needing (mutual) to needy (one sided).  i think of needy people as incapable of giving back because they are so starved.  An example - a man has  been locked in a room for 24 hours and youi let him out as opposed to a man in the desert for 3 days - if you give each a glass of water who will drink it faster?  Who would be more willing to share it with another? 

i think the biggest risk in being needy or clingy is in the partner you choose.  Some will use it against you and exploit this vulnerability.  Happens all the times in relationships.  i have heards doms say that subs should need their masters more or the dynamic won't work or flourish - this tells me they think using the subs vulnerabilities and emotional neediness to manipulte them.  This would not work well with me.  i will need you but if you ever try to use it against me to put me in a position of being afraid of loosing you - i'd rather cut loose then live in a relationship like that. 

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RE: On Clingy Submissives - 12/28/2007 2:45:10 PM   
ownedgirlie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: velvetears
i think of needy people as incapable of giving back because they are so starved. 


This was the best description I have seen, regarding the negative ways of being needy.  I just mentioned in another post, my views on life affirming versus life draining people.  I believe a person can need someone while still being life affirming.  I also understand a person can need someone while being life draining - they cling, take, and do not give back, much like a leech.  And I think that's the image people typically get when they hear "need" or "needy."  Your summary helped me sink my teeth into that - thanks!

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RE: On Clingy Submissives - 12/28/2007 2:51:40 PM   
DesFIP


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quote:

ORIGINAL: velvetears
i think of needy people as incapable of giving back because they are so starved. 


Really? I just think of a mismatch.

For example, both The Man and I like a lot of contact. He calls a couple of times a day while working. If he's out of town he calls a lot more. We email and chat whenever we can. But he doesn't consider that I'm starved for affection because he enjoys that same level of attention.

I have read posts on another site by a woman who only wants to speak to her dom on Thursdays for five minutes to confirm the weekend plans. She would consider The Man as needy and he would consider her as emotionally unavailable, cold, etc. Neither is necessarily true. They just aren't compatible.

Needy, like doormat, is just a way to put down everyone who isn't like you.

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RE: On Clingy Submissives - 12/28/2007 2:56:31 PM   
ownedgirlie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP
Needy, like doormat, is just a way to put down everyone who isn't like you.


I tend to agree with this in some cases, as I see the terms used in that way quite a bit in these forums.  While I agree that sometimes the descriptors used might accurately describe some people, I think they are used as descriptors far too often and for the wrong reasons.   I have had people like that in my life, and I have been that way to other people in my past, so I believe the "leeching" trait can apply to the words in some cases.  I don't think it applies nearly as often as the words are flung around here, though.

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RE: On Clingy Submissives - 12/28/2007 2:59:28 PM   
laurell3


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie

quote:

ORIGINAL: laurell3

I agree and I think now six pages later it's pretty apparent that what people are talking about are all sorts of different definitions of clingy, needing and dependence. 


I think it's good that so many views are being shared (not that I am implying you do not).  So often, someone says "Need" or "clingy" and everyone jumps the gun in an assumption that it's time to hit the reject button.  "Need" can encompass many levels.  It is refreshing to see so many multidimensional opinions expressed in this thread.


Agreed and certainly what works for me isn't necessarily true for others.  I do however feel there are people with an incredibly small sense of self and I can't agree when that results in allowing others to make unhealthy decisions for them that it's ever really a good thing.  However, what is healthy to one or another certainly will differ.

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RE: On Clingy Submissives - 12/28/2007 3:03:02 PM   
juliaoceania


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP
Needy, like doormat, is just a way to put down everyone who isn't like you.


I tend to agree with this in some cases, as I see the terms used in that way quite a bit in these forums.  While I agree that sometimes the descriptors used might accurately describe some people, I think they are used as descriptors far too often and for the wrong reasons.   I have had people like that in my life, and I have been that way to other people in my past, so I believe the "leeching" trait can apply to the words in some cases.  I don't think it applies nearly as often as the words are flung around here, though.


While I agree with celeste that mostly the term is used as an insult to people who have different needs from others, I see what you are saying too, owned...

Here is my take on it, only if it interferes with the functioning of the individual, causes them to have an inability to maintain relationships with anyone, and they are unhappy, could the "neediness" be a problem.

I have done some research on personality disorders, two that easily come to mind are "dependent" personality disorder and "borderline" personality disorder... while most people exhibit many traits of all the personality disorders, people are not diagnosed with these unless it pervasively impacts their lives...

I will also note that it is not how other people perceive you and your neediness that defines whether or not a person is diagnosed with one of these conditions, it is how it impacts the life of the person suffering from one of these disorders... so lets say to one person you seem BPD or dependent, it is just their opinion of you, not the fact of who you are or how you function in other relationships than the one you have with them....


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RE: On Clingy Submissives - 12/28/2007 6:06:32 PM   
sweetstorm


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quote:

ORIGINAL: KindLadyGrey

So I throw this question out to the forums: Is it such a terrible thing to be a clingy submissive when the very nature of submission encourages emotional dependence?



I disagree that submission encourages emotional dependence.  I think that's a perception that may not apply to everyone.

I take responsibility for my own emotions and encourage my sub-sisters not to let all of their emotions depend on His response or lack of one to any given situation or comment made to/by them. I don't think it is healthy for a sub to completely put the weight of responsibility for all of their emotions on someone else.

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RE: On Clingy Submissives - 12/28/2007 6:14:58 PM   
sexyred1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SeeksOnlyOne

quote:

ORIGINAL: sexyred1
snip
Those people usually are the ones who say they are fine alone. I do not believe for a moment that anyone who is alone actually wants to be so, it is a defense mechanism.
snip


i agreed with most of what you wrote until i got to the part quoted above. 

believe for a moment that it is possible to want to be alone, to even need it for some.  in my case, i was married my entire adult life, always being the wife, never really having the chance to see what i enjoyed doing....always following him and his interests.

at first, after we separated, i could not imagine being alone.   i was terrified.  but it was and is so healthy for me.  it has made me learn who i am, what makes me tick....and some day, when i do decide to get in to a relationship, i firmly believe it will make me a much better partner than i was before.

having lived alone for a good while now, i actually can not even imagine ever living with someone again.  i love being alone at home....my house, my castle.

so there are a few of us that are actually content alone, and have no desires to change that.  i may desire to change it in a month or 2, or a year or 2, but for now, it is just what i need and want. 

the only defense mechanism's i own that are a result of being alone is 2 pistols, a shotgun and a rifle.

 

I can see your point. I just find it hard to believe that anyone would want to be alone forever. And I do hear many people, men and women, who have been terribly hurt say that they would rather be alone. I feel that if you do like yourself and have developed into the best you can be, then it stands to reason that you would want to share yourself with another, right?

But, I do completely and totally understand how being alone is vastly preferable to being in a bad relationship and how being alone can really bring you in tune with yourself in the deepest way.

And for those who really do find fulfillment in solitude, I am happy for anyone who finds peace and contentment.

< Message edited by sexyred1 -- 12/28/2007 6:28:41 PM >

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RE: On Clingy Submissives - 12/28/2007 6:43:17 PM   
Leatherist


Posts: 5149
Joined: 12/11/2007
Status: offline 		I think it also depends on how much space people need. I like friends, but not the feeling of suffocation. I have had subs in the past who needed constant reassurance that they were not going to be abandoned-but thier negative views on everything made that a pretty much self fullfilling prospect. How can you expect someone to want to be with you-if you are just a constant downer?

The worst one just whined on and on about past Doms she was with-never a good thing to say about them. And was just totally annoying about the cling thing.......would blow up if you forgot to call her every day. I wonder how many people realize that this sort of behavior is self sabotiging?

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RE: On Clingy Submissives - 12/28/2007 6:46:12 PM   
angelic


Posts: 1807
Joined: 1/24/2005
Status: offline 		~fr~ In my opinion and speaking for myself only, unless the relationship is merely a 'play' relationship (and by that I mean where a person  has an occassional play partner), in an M/s relationship, it is absolutely essential that the slave/submissive be needy and clingy.  The lynchpin is knowing when it is appropriate and when it is not.   I will absolutely be needy because I will have given him so much of myself that I desperately need him.  That does not mean I become a raving lunatic if an hour goes by and I have not heard from him.  I will need him 24/7 and I will cling to the relationship as a whole and what it means to me.


< Message edited by angelic -- 12/28/2007 6:47:02 PM >

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RE: On Clingy Submissives - 12/28/2007 6:50:21 PM   
Leatherist


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quote:

ORIGINAL: angelic

~fr~ In my opinion and speaking for myself only, unless the relationship is merely a 'play' relationship (and by that I mean where a person  has an occassional play partner), in an M/s relationship, it is absolutely essential that the slave/submissive be needy and clingy.  The lynchpin is knowing when it is appropriate and when it is not.   I will absolutely be needy because I will have given him so much of myself that I desperately need him.  That does not mean I become a raving lunatic if an hour goes by and I have not heard from him.  I will need him 24/7 and I will cling to the relationship as a whole and what it means to me.



I would define that more as dedication.

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RE: On Clingy Submissives - 12/28/2007 7:07:05 PM   
taintedgypsy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

~ Fast Reply ~
 
I'm a bit surprised that there is a general negative reaction to being "clingy". It's also eye raising to see the characteristic applied only to the submissive side of the flogger.

I represent I am a clingy dominant. Within my relationship I am a VERY clingy Master. Why is that a bad thing? Should I be in a 12 step program?

I don't find being clingy excludes me from being confident or unable to function alone. I wouldn't want to be around a submissive and surely wouldn't take on a slave unless they had similar confidence and had equal strength and personal self worth. However being together with beth is a preferred state. Shouldn't everyone seeking a broad relationship of some permanence which is inclusive of conversation and activities that don't necessary include/involve/require nudity, or the props of WIITWD, have a similar preference? Is wanting to share conversation and social interaction considered clingy?

Let's not try to define healthy and un-healthy because that becomes an exercises in applying pronouns - "My relationship and interaction is healthy, your's is 'clingy'." Not going there!

If there is an unhealthy aspect it's when self delusion is involved. It is unhealthy if one side of the partnership has unrealistic expectations for the relationship. Similarly expecting success in changing the nature of their partner is an unhealthy expectation. Then there is the unhealthy situation of staying in a relationship full of compromise and rationalization because ultimately you don't like being alone. If you don't like yourself you may cling to someone. Having your sense of value and worth only derived from a relationship may cause you to cling. Should you lack confidence in yourself you can cling to the perceived confidence in another. Lacking a personal identity you can cling to a collective relationship identity. I don't think these situations exist only for submissives. I've observed dominants exhibiting exactly the same rationalized logic to cling to partner; having and fearing similar conditions and results. 

Knowing yourself, and ideally, liking yourself is a good foundation and starting point for the goal of a healthy partnership of "cling".


That is beautiful ... I am clingy and to some extent always will be ... When I was unwell this clinginess became unhealthy yet I do not believe that clingy has to be unhealthy ... like all things in life moderation is the key. You can walk away from the one you so desparately "need" and for some strange reason the world just keeps turning on its axis, the sun comes up each day and the birds keep singing ... life goes on and even though you may be desparately unhappy at first, time is a good healer and I believe that you can find happiness again. "For me" ... someone in a relationship with me should not just be wanted, it should grow into a very intimate need, their importance should grow with the relationship, idealy they should become a major cornerstone in my life.

All things are subjective ... they take on different meanings dependant on who, where, when and the individual experences of the people involved. I am complete as I am now, my life is good and I enjoy it, yet I am complete as one person, involved in all sorts of relationships, family, friends and work.  It is different to being in a relationship with someone intimately where you are no longer "one" but "two" (or more in poly) ... there is for me a "need" to feel complete with the sig. other, I regognise this as a dependance on the other and I see it as healthy, a natural growth of the relationship and think in their own way my partner would require His/Her needs to be filled by me for their own completion. If this is clingy than more power to it, I for one embrace it and look forward to experiencing it again in the future. I do not need him like oxygen because I will survive without him ... but to some extent the air is staler and life is not as sweet without him.

just my 2 cents worth and again Mercnbeth you are beautiful and inspire so much joy in the unknown future.

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RE: On Clingy Submissives - 12/28/2007 7:13:04 PM   
taintedgypsy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant

I haven't read through all of this thread yet.  I do find your question to be very interesting as I have had a couple of girlfriends who were the clingy type and, when I first started in D/s I was dealing with a submissive who became very clingy very quickly.  Personally, I like there to be a bit of clingy-ness as it indicates an emotional openness and vulnerability that takes trust to develop.  But...there is a difference between "a bit clingy" and being a "creeping vine".  While I do encourage some emotional dependance from submissives, I do not want them to see me as the end-all, be-all for their emotional needs.  I believe that there is going to be some emotional dependance on both sides of the whip and that is good...but fostering the need for me alone to satisfy all of their emotional needs would end up with me having a submissive who needed me too much for me to be able to go out in the world and do what I need to do.

This is why I disagree...though not completely...with your statement that the very nature of submission encourages emotional dependance.  In my world, submission is a yielding of the will and a development of some dependance...which goes along with the development of trust...to/on the dominant.


hmmmm sooo far away ... such a shame ... again I find myself nodding in a agreement with your words .... I so enjoy your posts. Sigh .... wonders how long it would take to save air fare and what employment prospects there are for redheaded truck drivers in his neck of the woods ...

edited for this thought lol.
oh god I would have to learn to drive on the wrong side of the road lol.

< Message edited by taintedgypsy -- 12/28/2007 7:15:48 PM >

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RE: On Clingy Submissives - 12/28/2007 8:51:31 PM   
Griswold


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quote:

ORIGINAL: KindLadyGrey

A recent post on the "Ask a Sub" forum got me thinking about this. A sub was asking what to do when her master stopped paying attention to her.


Intriguing.

(To say the least).

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RE: On Clingy Submissives - 12/28/2007 9:22:08 PM   
BossyShoeBitch


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From: South Florida
Status: offline 		"Clingy is in the eye of the beholder"

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RE: On Clingy Submissives - 12/28/2007 10:43:13 PM   
MaamJay


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Status: offline 		I think from the range of responses it is clear that one person's "clingy" is another person's "just right" and probably someone else's "too distant"! It's a matter of working out together how much contact is expected and appropriate and what protocols are to be followed in certain situations. I think it's up to both sides to let the 'other' know if they are going to be "off air" for any length of time and for approximately how long ... that's just manners/common courtesy to Me. It prevents a whole lot of fears arising and upsetting someone unnecessarily.

For example, Master was driving 4 hours in the early hours of the morning to reach a particular location. Because He knows i am concerned about His safety on the road (more worried about other drivers than Him!), He is usually assiduous about calling when He arrives. This particular time He got overwhelmed with things to do and people to deal with when He got there, and He didn't call. i stayed calm for about an hour over His expected arrival time, and phoned His mobile and just got His voicemail so left a message. When He'd not answered that within half an hour then i started to get a bit concerned ... then a bit worried and called again, leaving another message. However, i was balancing that with the knowledge that His location was in the hills so mobile signal could be patchy ... and that He was likely busy doing what He had gone there to do. i WAS incredibly relieved when He rang having got both my messages at once, and i knew He was fine ... and He was apologetic because He knew i was worried (my tone of voice on the messages was pretty revealing even though i had tried to sound calm LOL!). All was forgiven instantly as far as i was concerned, all i needed to know was that He was unharmed. Now, some might call that too needy, too clingy, irrational ... fine, call it what you like. For U/us ... it's an expression of my deep love and concern for His safety ... and His for my emotional wellbeing. And that's what keeps O/our M/s working and is giving both of U/us the peace and contentment W/we want and need in O/our lives. Neither of U/us believe that Dominants are so perfect that they don't need to say sorry!

Similarly, neither of U/us like goodbyes or being apart ... if that stopped either of U/us from doing things, then I would think of that as unhealthy. It doesn't ... He goes where He needs to, i go to conferences or to visit friends across the country ... it just means W/we give each other extra warm hugs at the airport and O/our conversations are peppered by ways in which the other is being missed! W/we share so much on a daily basis ... that just not having Him there in the car while i'm driving, seeing what i am seeing ... is a way of missing Him! And for whoever is left at home, seeing the accusing look the dogs give "Where are they? What have you done with them? Why haven't they come home with you?" and then seeing how much they hang around the front door looking sad, is enough to remember how much the away one is missed!

This being My third "husband" (I officially married the first 2 for nearly 16 and 12 years!) ... I know for a fact that my life goes on when relationships end. That said, this is without doubt the deepest relationship I have ever had, and that would make it more difficult to go on alone. Difficult but not impossible. Let's say the awful worst happened and Master was killed. It would take me a while to recover from that loss for sure. And to find another compatible Master would take even longer. And if i was lucky enough to find One ... He wouldn't replace Master ... He would hopefully add to what Master has already made of me as a sub, and gently re-mould me to His ways. He wouldn't be the right One for me if He tried to destroy everything that is already there.

Nonetheless, this has been a very interesting thread, though I do wish some people would reach other people's posts with a little more sensitivity and a bit less judgement!

Maam Jay aka violet[A]

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RE: On Clingy Submissives - 12/28/2007 11:30:00 PM   
velvetears


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quote:

ORIGINAL: KindLadyGrey

Is it such a terrible thing to be a clingy submissive when the very nature of submission encourages emotional dependence?



i don't think the "very nature of submission encourages emotional dependence" - i would say emotional connectedness rather then dependence. To foster a clingy dependent nature in one's submissive is taking on a big responsibility and creating an emotional reliance that the dom should be able to attend to and handle once he or she creates it.  If they don't, imo they are irresponsible and selfish. 

Personally i want my dom to want me to need him, but not be needy and clingy for him.  If he were to try to create a relationship where i was needy to the point it wasn't emotionally healthy, that could end up a dangerous situation.   Some people like walking a tightrope without a net - i wouldn't.

i think if i were a dom i would think more of a sub coming to me from a place of independence and strength, needing me but able to stand on her own and make decisions, not out of desperation, but from a place of love and devotion, much more so than a clingy needy place because one demonstrates she has a choice while the other doesn't - maybe some doms like the control that gives them, to me that just demonstrates lack of confidence and perhaps skills on their part to attract and keep a sub. 

All that being said it is understandable that we are all human and there are times people go through stuff that makes them needy, for a time, but how draining it must be for someone to have to care for a needy submissive....  it is almost an oxymoron - shouldn't submissives be in a place to be givers?  Hard to be a giver if one is needy and clingy. 

Just some more thoughts on a subject i find interesting and thought provoking. 

_____________________________

Religion is for people who are scared of hell, Spirituality is for people who have been there

(in reply to KindLadyGrey)
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