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RE: Is BDSM against the law in Maine - 1/4/2008 6:18:18 AM   
LATEXBABY64


Posts: 2107
Joined: 4/8/2004
Status: offline 		ok this is stupid  if you consent to something does not make it ok to do. That is why there is laws cause some people do not have common sense.. For example you could say it is ok to shoot you. Now the state would say that still against the law. So we have those law becaue stupid people do not know right from wrong and we have to tell them right from wrong cause it does effect all of us. When we have to flip for a hospital bills and care for people who lack common sense to say gee that was a stupid thing to do to let someome beat me sensless.
just the way of things

(in reply to Alumbrado)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: Is BDSM against the law in Maine - 1/4/2008 6:20:04 AM   
Alumbrado


Posts: 5560
Status: offline 		I already said that consent applied unless the actions went beyond a reasonable level.... do try to keep up 

(in reply to LATEXBABY64)
Profile   Post #: 42
RE: Is BDSM against the law in Maine - 1/4/2008 6:27:58 AM   
scottjk


Posts: 335
Joined: 4/18/2005
Status: offline 		(Looks and sighs as this thread goes off the rails like so many others.)

Okay, can we please brush our shoulder's off and be civil?

The basic concept is this:

Regardless of the definition, some one could at the very least spend a night in jail if anyone complains to the authorities. And THAT is only possible if the authorities at the scene decide it's worth pursuing. That is the whole point of this discussion.

My first post explained the consequences of getting captured, but it also explained that if you're going to play, be damned sure of who you're playing with and who knows about it. All the rest of it is a technical discussion and is completely moot to the OPs question.

Bottom line: Legally, you can be arrested.
Consequences: A legal can of worms opened that could be costly financially, socially and emotionally for a consenting act between two adults.

Keep it simple, folks. If you feel a need, provide links that discuss the legal issues in detail. The OPs wants a basic answer to learn where to start to learn more in detail. If you're not a working lawyer, then for Pete's sake, don't present your opinions as legal fact. :)

_____________________________

Thou art fertile ground and I will plant a garden in thee.

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Profile   Post #: 43
RE: Is BDSM against the law in Maine - 1/4/2008 6:54:53 AM   
Alumbrado


Posts: 5560
Status: offline 		And you got all of that out of reading Lawrence? 

(in reply to scottjk)
Profile   Post #: 44
RE: Is BDSM against the law in Maine - 1/4/2008 7:56:11 AM   
hardbodysub


Posts: 1654
Joined: 8/7/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus

Hardbodysub is right.  If I feel threatened by another person, such as if they raise their fist, or move at me in a threatening way, that is assault.  If I am actually touched by them, it is battery.


As a civil matter, that is correct.  As a criminal matter, assault and battery are combined into a single offense in most jurisdictions.



You're right. Tort law and criminal law are different animals. My bad; should have mentioned that.

However, I think the definitions of the terms remain the same in regard to "touching" and "threat". When an actual battery is involved, it's pretty unusual that there wasn't also the threat of a battery. Hence, "assault and battery" almost always go together. Battery without assault: not very likely. Assault without battery: very possible, and people do get arrested for it. The charge of "Assault with a deadly weapon" doesn't require that the offender actually hurt anyone, only that the threat was made.

[edited to correct typo]


< Message edited by hardbodysub -- 1/4/2008 8:13:03 AM >

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Profile   Post #: 45
RE: Is BDSM against the law in Maine - 1/4/2008 8:09:12 AM   
LATEXBABY64


Posts: 2107
Joined: 4/8/2004
Status: offline 		oh no do not hit me with that whip rofl

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Profile   Post #: 46
RE: Is BDSM against the law in Maine - 1/4/2008 8:12:47 AM   
meticulousgirl


Posts: 969
Joined: 2/20/2007
Status: offline 		it's the acts / practices / activities that you choose to engage in not the lifestyle itself that is illegal not in one state but all 50. 

The whole thread is kind of rediculous to me.....

~meticulous

(in reply to LATEXBABY64)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: Is BDSM against the law in Maine - 1/4/2008 8:17:35 AM   
hardbodysub


Posts: 1654
Joined: 8/7/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: meticulousgirl

it's the acts / practices / activities that you choose to engage in not the lifestyle itself that is illegal not in one state but all 50. 

The whole thread is kind of rediculous to me.....

~meticulous


The lifestyle doesn't exist without the practices and activities associated with it, so no I don't think the thread is ridiculous.

(in reply to meticulousgirl)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: Is BDSM against the law in Maine - 1/4/2008 9:13:31 AM   
scottjk


Posts: 335
Joined: 4/18/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

And you got all of that out of reading Lawrence? 


Lawrence?
Why would I bother? The Lawrence decision that you cite isn't worth the paper it's written on until you end up in court to make use of it.
And to end up in court, a certain chain of events have to happen, right? Point of fact, if a police officer decides to arrest you, nothing is going to prevent him from doing that, legally. If you try, you'd be committing a crime that REQUIRES arrest. :)

Criminal law cannot be applied until AFTER an arrest.
And even if you're innocent and prove it, as some one pointed out, you still lose a chunk of your life, spent a lot of money, and coping with all the stress that comes with it. Guess what? It isn't likely that you'll be compensated for ANY losses of any kind without filing a civil suit, and even then the odds of recovering damages will either take years, or not at all.

Get it?

Unless a law is written that makes it absolutely clear that you can't be arrested for it, you're going to go to jail and later, defend yourself.

< Message edited by scottjk -- 1/4/2008 9:17:44 AM >

_____________________________

Thou art fertile ground and I will plant a garden in thee.

(in reply to Alumbrado)
Profile   Post #: 49
RE: Is BDSM against the law in Maine - 1/4/2008 10:16:31 AM   
meticulousgirl


Posts: 969
Joined: 2/20/2007
Status: offline 		certain practices are illegal, and should be enforced.  No offense but, i wouldn't want to get shot, stabbed or have a kid get molested due to some nut job that claims to be a Master forcing His slave to get a "victim" or getting the victim for himself.

Defined limits and a contract helps but, that's not going to save someone in the worst case scenerio's.....

The lifestyle is not illegal in any state, it's the out of the ordinary and EXTREME acts that make people look and think about it. 

~meticulous~

(in reply to scottjk)
Profile   Post #: 50
RE: Is BDSM against the law in Maine - 1/4/2008 11:17:43 PM   
SailingBum


Posts: 3225
Joined: 12/10/2007
From: Sailin the stormy sea
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

quote:

For the uninformed the basic legal process works like this.  It is the city/county/state that determines if your prosecuted NOT the victim.  ie a cop show up at your door only 2 ppl in the house.  One is all bruised up.  The cops can reasonably determine < thats  probable cause my friend> that the other person did it and will be arrested.  The state yes all 50 of them CAN not will prosecute under various charges despite the victims protests that they were in a scene!  How is that for basic research?


For a basic description of the current approach to domestic violence it is OK...but that is predicated on policy, not on probable cause. There is a fundamental difference between actual consent, and not wanting to press charges after non-consensual domestic abuse.

For example, when the police come to the above mentioned door, and both of the two people are wearing martial arts uniforms and black belts, and there is a sign that says 'Self Defense Classes' over said door, there isn't going to be any arrest.

And domestic abuse isn't what is generally being talked about here.


I was not refering to domestic violence.  I was giving a typical scenerio where you could be arrested.  Probable cause is where the cops get the "authority" to make the arrest at the door.  Because a resonable person would think a crime has been comitted.  Policy has nothing to do with it. 

BadOne

(in reply to Alumbrado)
Profile   Post #: 51
RE: Is BDSM against the law in Maine - 1/5/2008 1:20:53 AM   
celticlord2112


Posts: 5732
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SailingBum
quote:

While the language of state penal codes varies, a quick googling of online legal resources indicates that consent (or the lack thereof) is a requisite element to the crime/tort of assault.

I read your post wrong   I thought you were implying that the fact that consent could be used as a legal defense to an assault.


In Texas and in Maine at the very least, such is the letter of the law.

< Message edited by celticlord2112 -- 1/5/2008 1:21:57 AM >

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Profile   Post #: 52
RE: Is BDSM against the law in Maine - 1/5/2008 8:51:42 AM   
Alumbrado


Posts: 5560
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: scottjk

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

And you got all of that out of reading Lawrence? 


Lawrence?
Why would I bother? The Lawrence decision that you cite isn't worth the paper it's written on until you end up in court to make use of it.
And to end up in court, a certain chain of events have to happen, right? Point of fact, if a police officer decides to arrest you, nothing is going to prevent him from doing that, legally. If you try, you'd be committing a crime that REQUIRES arrest. :)

Criminal law cannot be applied until AFTER an arrest.
And even if you're innocent and prove it, as some one pointed out, you still lose a chunk of your life, spent a lot of money, and coping with all the stress that comes with it. Guess what? It isn't likely that you'll be compensated for ANY losses of any kind without filing a civil suit, and even then the odds of recovering damages will either take years, or not at all.

Get it?

Unless a law is written that makes it absolutely clear that you can't be arrested for it, you're going to go to jail and later, defend yourself.



You must not live in America... we don't live in fear that we might be arrested unless there is a law that clearly gives us permission to do something.

And the police are free to ignore any and all Supreme Court rulings...but outside of TV shows and movies, they do so less often than you seem to be implying.



(in reply to scottjk)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: Is BDSM against the law in Maine - 1/5/2008 8:57:54 AM   
Alumbrado


Posts: 5560
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SailingBum

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

quote:

For the uninformed the basic legal process works like this.  It is the city/county/state that determines if your prosecuted NOT the victim.  ie a cop show up at your door only 2 ppl in the house.  One is all bruised up.  The cops can reasonably determine < thats  probable cause my friend> that the other person did it and will be arrested.  The state yes all 50 of them CAN not will prosecute under various charges despite the victims protests that they were in a scene!  How is that for basic research?


For a basic description of the current approach to domestic violence it is OK...but that is predicated on policy, not on probable cause. There is a fundamental difference between actual consent, and not wanting to press charges after non-consensual domestic abuse.

For example, when the police come to the above mentioned door, and both of the two people are wearing martial arts uniforms and black belts, and there is a sign that says 'Self Defense Classes' over said door, there isn't going to be any arrest.

And domestic abuse isn't what is generally being talked about here.


I was not refering to domestic violence.  I was giving a typical scenerio where you could be arrested.  Probable cause is where the cops get the "authority" to make the arrest at the door.  Because a resonable person would think a crime has been comitted.  Policy has nothing to do with it. 

BadOne


A cop can't walk out the door without seeing PC on every street corner... but it is policy that tells them whether or not their employer or the courts want them to follow up.
For a long time, the policy was to ignore domestic abuse unless the victim aggressively pursued prosecution That has changed to a policy that the state prosecutes even if the victim won't.. and the implementation of those policies has nothing to do with probable cause.

Under the OP topic, when a cop walks by Karate school, they will see ample evidence in the form of bruises that someone has been struck in a 'harmful or offensive manner'...why don't they follow your dictum and arrest someone? 
Because the law and policy both make it clear that consent can indeed be a defense to assault charges.

(in reply to SailingBum)
Profile   Post #: 54
RE: Is BDSM against the law in Maine - 1/5/2008 9:12:25 AM   
SailingBum


Posts: 3225
Joined: 12/10/2007
From: Sailin the stormy sea
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

ORIGINAL: SailingBum
quote:

While the language of state penal codes varies, a quick googling of online legal resources indicates that consent (or the lack thereof) is a requisite element to the crime/tort of assault.

I read your post wrong   I thought you were implying that the fact that consent could be used as a legal defense to an assault.


In Texas and in Maine at the very least, such is the letter of the law.


It may be as the law is written.  Here in michigan you can't spit on the sidewalk... My point as a pratical matter I would not want to be in front of a judge saying .."but your honor and members of the jury she clearly consented for me to whip the living shit out of her.  And she has the marks to prove it".  How fast can you say guilty?   Meanwhile your in jail working on your appeal.  I spend some of my time helping the "after innocence project"  I have read many a court document where the person was cleary innocent through DNA and still sitting in prison.  btw the film is a excellent documentry on the reality of the court system.

BadOne

< Message edited by SailingBum -- 1/5/2008 9:13:14 AM >

(in reply to celticlord2112)
Profile   Post #: 55
RE: Is BDSM against the law in Maine - 1/7/2008 9:46:39 AM   
SailingBum


Posts: 3225
Joined: 12/10/2007
From: Sailin the stormy sea
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

quote:

ORIGINAL: SailingBum

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

quote:

For the uninformed the basic legal process works like this.  It is the city/county/state that determines if your prosecuted NOT the victim.  ie a cop show up at your door only 2 ppl in the house.  One is all bruised up.  The cops can reasonably determine < thats  probable cause my friend> that the other person did it and will be arrested.  The state yes all 50 of them CAN not will prosecute under various charges despite the victims protests that they were in a scene!  How is that for basic research?


For a basic description of the current approach to domestic violence it is OK...but that is predicated on policy, not on probable cause. There is a fundamental difference between actual consent, and not wanting to press charges after non-consensual domestic abuse.

For example, when the police come to the above mentioned door, and both of the two people are wearing martial arts uniforms and black belts, and there is a sign that says 'Self Defense Classes' over said door, there isn't going to be any arrest.

And domestic abuse isn't what is generally being talked about here.


I was not refering to domestic violence.  I was giving a typical scenerio where you could be arrested.  Probable cause is where the cops get the "authority" to make the arrest at the door.  Because a resonable person would think a crime has been comitted.  Policy has nothing to do with it. 

BadOne


A cop can't walk out the door without seeing PC on every street corner... but it is policy that tells them whether or not their employer or the courts want them to follow up.
For a long time, the policy was to ignore domestic abuse unless the victim aggressively pursued prosecution That has changed to a policy that the state prosecutes even if the victim won't.. and the implementation of those policies has nothing to do with probable cause.

Under the OP topic, when a cop walks by Karate school, they will see ample evidence in the form of bruises that someone has been struck in a 'harmful or offensive manner'...why don't they follow your dictum and arrest someone? 
Because the law and policy both make it clear that consent can indeed be a defense to assault charges.


I can assure you that the cops don't have a "policy" to arrest anyone.  They do have a "policy" to arrest you  they suspect a crime has been committed ie bruises, bleeding.  The policy as you call it is based on probable cause.  Take a look at the 4 th amendment in the constitution it outlines probable cause.  Did you ever consider that the laws cited might be for boxing matches and the like?  I seriously doubt that the law cited were meant for bruising up your partner.  Nor would I want to be the "test case" for it.

(in reply to Alumbrado)
Profile   Post #: 56
RE: Is BDSM against the law in Maine - 1/7/2008 3:07:08 PM   
Rover


Posts: 2634
Joined: 6/28/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

Under the OP topic, when a cop walks by Karate school, they will see ample evidence in the form of bruises that someone has been struck in a 'harmful or offensive manner'...why don't they follow your dictum and arrest someone? 
Because the law and policy both make it clear that consent can indeed be a defense to assault charges.


I'm not an attorney, but every statute on assault that I've seen provides for a specific exclusion for contact sports.  The "defense" is contained in the specified exclusion, not in any implied acceptance of consent.  For those states in which consent *is* an acceptable defense, there is also a specific exclusion clearly stating so.
 
And even in those states in which consent is an acceptable defense to assault, the district attorney often has the discretion to charge under spousal abuse laws, which contain no such conensual exclusion.
 
John

_____________________________

"Man's mind stretched to a new idea never goes back to its original dimensions."

Sri da Avabhas

(in reply to Alumbrado)
Profile   Post #: 57
RE: Is BDSM against the law in Maine - 1/7/2008 3:21:04 PM   
Alumbrado


Posts: 5560
Status: offline
quote:

I can assure you that the cops don't have a "policy" to arrest anyone.  They do have a "policy" to arrest you  they suspect a crime has been committed ie bruises, bleeding.  The policy as you call it is based on probable cause.


Your assurances are worthless when you are using words you don't understand the meaning of.
Selective enforcement is a policy . Not charging someone when all the elements of a crime are not present (such as lack of consent ) is a policy.
Probable cause is something you heard on COPs, and has nothing to do with what is being discussed here, i.e. the erroneous claim that no one can ever consent to any assault under any circumstances.


(in reply to Rover)
Profile   Post #: 58
RE: Is BDSM against the law in Maine - 1/7/2008 3:27:09 PM   
Alumbrado


Posts: 5560
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Rover

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

Under the OP topic, when a cop walks by Karate school, they will see ample evidence in the form of bruises that someone has been struck in a 'harmful or offensive manner'...why don't they follow your dictum and arrest someone? 
Because the law and policy both make it clear that consent can indeed be a defense to assault charges.


I'm not an attorney, but every statute on assault that I've seen provides for a specific exclusion for contact sports.  The "defense" is contained in the specified exclusion, not in any implied acceptance of consent.  For those states in which consent *is* an acceptable defense, there is also a specific exclusion clearly stating so.
 
And even in those states in which consent is an acceptable defense to assault, the district attorney often has the discretion to charge under spousal abuse laws, which contain no such conensual exclusion.
 
John


I'm not sure how your regurgitating my position refutes it. 
The blanket assertion that I am taking issue with  (i.e.'No one can ever consent to any assault because consent is never a defense') is patently wrong. The very exception crafted for domestic abuse would be redundant if it were otherwise.

(in reply to Rover)
Profile   Post #: 59
RE: Is BDSM against the law in Maine - 1/7/2008 4:13:43 PM   
Rover


Posts: 2634
Joined: 6/28/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

I'm not sure how your regurgitating my position refutes it. 


Actually, our positions seem to differ on the following points (though I could be wrong):
 
1.  I made it clear(er?) that consent can only be a defense in the states that have specific exclusions... it cannot be a defense in all states.
 
2.  In the example you used, the karate class participants could not be charged with assualt because of the existence of a specific exclusion for contact sports.  Not because they were consensual participants.  As a legal matter, their consent was not a defense.

quote:


The blanket assertion that I am taking issue with  (i.e.'No one can ever consent to any assault because consent is never a defense') is patently wrong.


Agreed.

quote:


The very exception crafted for domestic abuse would be redundant if it were otherwise.


Actually, as I understand it the need for domestic abuse laws was several fold:
 
1.  To eliminate the need for a "complaintant". 
 
2.  The state is the complaintant, and can offer testimony as the complaintant.
 
3.  Thereby ensuring that abusers cannot intimidate their victims, meaning that cases actually get to court, and convictions are obtained.
 
4.  Reducing retribution towards victims who are no longer the complaintants.
 
Those issues would still exist even if consent were never a defense to assault.  Domestic abuse laws are not just different statutes, they are prosecuted in an entirely different manner.
 
John

_____________________________

"Man's mind stretched to a new idea never goes back to its original dimensions."

Sri da Avabhas

(in reply to Alumbrado)
Profile   Post #: 60
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