RE: Is BDSM against the law in Maine

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RE: Is BDSM against the law in Maine - 1/7/2008 6:37:38 PM

SailingBum

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

quote:

I can assure you that the cops don't have a "policy" to arrest anyone. They do have a "policy" to arrest you they suspect a crime has been committed ie bruises, bleeding. The policy as you call it is based on probable cause.

Your assurances are worthless when you are using words you don't understand the meaning of.
Selective enforcement is a policy . Not charging someone when all the elements of a crime are not present (such as lack of consent ) is a policy.
Probable cause is something you heard on COPs, and has nothing to do with what is being discussed here, i.e. the erroneous claim that no one can ever consent to any assault under any circumstances.

lol now you know where and how i get my knowledge on the subject matter. You must be a genius mind reader. I was prelaw at Michigan State before I switched to their MBA program. So I suspect that I know a hellava lot more about the law than you do. If you read my posts I said they <cops> CAN not WILL arrest you. Which is selective enforcement no doubt. <try to keep current> I can sleep easier tonight knowing that you know and understand the "policy" of every police force in the nation. That is a load off of my mind.

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RE: Is BDSM against the law in Maine - 1/27/2008 5:08:16 PM

scottjk

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

quote:

ORIGINAL: scottjk

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

And you got all of that out of reading Lawrence?

Lawrence?
Why would I bother? The Lawrence decision that you cite isn't worth the paper it's written on until you end up in court to make use of it.
And to end up in court, a certain chain of events have to happen, right? Point of fact, if a police officer decides to arrest you, nothing is going to prevent him from doing that, legally. If you try, you'd be committing a crime that REQUIRES arrest. :)

Criminal law cannot be applied until AFTER an arrest.
And even if you're innocent and prove it, as some one pointed out, you still lose a chunk of your life, spent a lot of money, and coping with all the stress that comes with it. Guess what? It isn't likely that you'll be compensated for ANY losses of any kind without filing a civil suit, and even then the odds of recovering damages will either take years, or not at all.

Get it?

Unless a law is written that makes it absolutely clear that you can't be arrested for it, you're going to go to jail and later, defend yourself.

You must not live in America... we don't live in fear that we might be arrested unless there is a law that clearly gives us permission to do something.

And the police are free to ignore any and all Supreme Court rulings...but outside of TV shows and movies, they do so less often than you seem to be implying.

I do live in America, my friend, and you're incorrect. While the police attempt to enforce rulings as law, they're obligated to make an arrest when there's a technicality called "just cause". That means that they're free to interpret the facts in the face current situation and decide if they SHOULD make an arrest and let the legal system sort it out. That gives them an out in case they make a mistake on an arrest. For instance, the police arrive at a murder scene, and you're found holding the bloody knife. It doesn't matter that you ignorantly pulled the knife out of the body, thinking you were trying to help the victim before the police arrived, what matters is that you're holding the damned knife. You're about to experience a hostile take down. They're not interested in what you've got to say, they're only interested in what they see, and to hand it over to the detectives and prosecutors.

However, while they DO make an effort to determine what the facts are, the hearsay can be in conflict. In the face of that conflict, it's ignored, and they make a determination based on what they SEE, rather than what they're told. The bottom line, as I've said before, rulings don't mean anything until after you've been arrested for a possible crime. At that point, you're a suspect and subject to arrest. You're a criminal AFTER you're convicted. That's why they've got tables and chairs for plaintiffs and defense.

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RE: Is BDSM against the law in Maine - 1/27/2008 5:24:44 PM

scottjk

Posts: 335
Joined: 4/18/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SailingBum

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

quote:

I can assure you that the cops don't have a "policy" to arrest anyone. They do have a "policy" to arrest you they suspect a crime has been committed ie bruises, bleeding. The policy as you call it is based on probable cause.

Your assurances are worthless when you are using words you don't understand the meaning of.
Selective enforcement is a policy . Not charging someone when all the elements of a crime are not present (such as lack of consent ) is a policy.
Probable cause is something you heard on COPs, and has nothing to do with what is being discussed here, i.e. the erroneous claim that no one can ever consent to any assault under any circumstances.

lol now you know where and how i get my knowledge on the subject matter. You must be a genius mind reader. I was prelaw at Michigan State before I switched to their MBA program. So I suspect that I know a hellava lot more about the law than you do. If you read my posts I said they <cops> CAN not WILL arrest you. Which is selective enforcement no doubt. <try to keep current> I can sleep easier tonight knowing that you know and understand the "policy" of every police force in the nation. That is a load off of my mind.

I myself worked with law enforcement as an Explorer (go figure). I was taught in several exploratory classes that probable cause enough for any infraction. Probable cause is a policy as well to allow law enforcement in the field to determine if a suspect is a flight risk, or is a danger to property, others or themselves. If any of those requirements are met in the field, you're going to be taking a ride to the station, period. From there, the wheels of justice start to grind if it's handed over to the prosecutor. And that's been my ENTIRE point! If you're arrested for your BDSM activities, life will get miserable and THAT is what you want to avoid: Giving law enforcement probable cause.

In cases where consent is the question, and there's a question if there's domestic violence involved, the police have no choice but to let it get sorted out in court, because they just don't know! (Ding!) Probable cause! (By the way, that's short for "Probable cause for arrest") and that's all they need.

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RE: Is BDSM against the law in Maine - 1/27/2008 7:15:51 PM

LadyLolly

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Interesting reponses from legal eagles citing reference materials and sources on topic. The best LEGAL sources are of course the State and City statues.  I don't claim to have those credentials, nor did I stay in a Holiday Inn last night <G>.

What I did not see on this thread was postings of personal experiences involving BDSM and the Law/Police. The practical application in everyday experience. While there is no guarentee that the officers anyone else would come in contact with would conduct themselves the same way, I'd like to share 2 experiences I've had to quell the "fear" factor.

I was head of a BDSM lifestyle household in rural GA where a minor child resided.   There was an investigation initiated by the child's school, (some porn on it's way to the trash was seen by the child). A social worker and a police officer conducted the investigation. The social worker was worrisomely rabid - Cherry Hill had just gone down. The police officer was pretty cool and seemed to be well informed about it - thier only concern was if there was inapropriate activity involving the child. Dismissed. With that said, if there are minors in a household extra care in what they are exposed to is strongly cautioned.

The second, in what could be considered an urban area of TN. A first visit to a public dungeon for our party to meet up at from various other places.  A heavy S/M scene involving floggers, canes, paddles, quirts and the like, beyond breaking, was planned and prepared for, those that ran the place were consulted.   Just as the scene concluded, in charges the police. The sub was wrapped in a blanket brought for the occasion, ice from the cooler being applied, after care in progress. She's in la la land and the police are trying to question her while examining the welts and marks. Barely verbal, yes, she was OK, yes she consented, yes everything was wonderfulllllllll. While the police seemed somewhat puzzled and baffled by everything "you guys really like this stuff, huh?" (and my ballsy offer to provide a more upclose and personal understanding of the experience to one of the officers - who declined for some reason <G>) they just shook thier heads and left.

The police are not totally ignorant of BDSM practices even in the most backward of rural areas.  Don't imagine calls for loud and bouisterous sex sessions are that much of a rarity either. They see it all. If they aren't concerned for a citizens safety and well being they aren't, in my experience, generally inclined to freak and break out thier own set of handcuffs.

Still, tops expose themselves to risk playing with those they don't know well if later the bottom cries wolf.  Consentual BDSM carries the same risks as consentual sex, either can leave you open to charges and possible prosecution.    Use common sense and mitigate your acceptence of those risks.

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RE: Is BDSM against the law in Maine - 1/28/2008 4:33:01 AM

SailingBum

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quote:

ORIGINAL: scottjk

I myself worked with law enforcement as an Explorer (go figure). I was taught in several exploratory classes that probable cause enough for any infraction. Probable cause is a policy as well to allow law enforcement in the field to determine if a suspect is a flight risk, or is a danger to property, others or themselves. If any of those requirements are met in the field, you're going to be taking a ride to the station, period. From there, the wheels of justice start to grind if it's handed over to the prosecutor. And that's been my ENTIRE point! If you're arrested for your BDSM activities, life will get miserable and THAT is what you want to avoid: Giving law enforcement probable cause.

In cases where consent is the question, and there's a question if there's domestic violence involved, the police have no choice but to let it get sorted out in court, because they just don't know! (Ding!) Probable cause! (By the way, that's short for "Probable cause for arrest") and that's all they need.

The 10 original amendments were added to the constitution to protect the citizens of the newly yet unformed country from the law enforcement crowd. Their past experience under British law was dismal.

Call it a policy call it whatever you want. I don't doubt that police academy explain PC as a reason or a policy to make a arrest. However they might not have explained the how and why PC is so important to the people. It protects us from bad law enforcement.

The 4 th amendment was added to protect the citizens from the selective prosecution that happened under British law. ie being charge with a crime for no apparent reason among other lousy law enforcement practices. PC is clearly stated in the constitution to protect the citizens from the police. Furthermore the constitution as written was rejected until the bill of rights was added. Because the people rights were not adequately considered without the bill of rights.

US constitution
Bill of rights

Amendment IV
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

BadOne

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RE: Is BDSM against the law in Maine - 1/28/2008 6:38:14 AM

Taboo4Two

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyLolly

What I did not see on this thread was postings of personal experiences involving BDSM and the Law/Police. The practical application in everyday experience.

Here is a personal experience that took place in Maine.

We were attending a private party in someone's home. Things were progressing very nicely. A couple of scenes were going on and there were toys strewn about as scenes had ended.

There was a knock at the door and the owner of the home went to the door, but did not open it, and asked who it was.

Turns out it was the police. Not just one officer but several. It seems there had been a complaint of "excessive noise".

The time from the initial knock, to identification, to the police actually entering the home was probably less than five minutes. We did have time to unhook someone from a cross and most everyone was able to cover up in some manner if they had been nude of provocatively dressed. Ok, except for one naked person who grabbed a blanket and sort of hid in the corner.

The officer enter the home and was very polite. You could see he was sizing up the situation. Eventually he explianed to us that the call was not just for excessive noise, but that someone had annonymously reported that they had heard screams coming from the house. There had been no screams and the host thought that the report had been made by some local kids who often gave him a hard time.

The officer asked that everyone in the house come to the front room and then he asked if anyone was hurt and if everything was ok.

Once everyone had replied he thanked us, appologized for bothering us and left.

He was professional, courteous and not at all shocked with what he saw.

As so many have said I am sure he made a judgement that this was an adult party and everyone was there of their own free will. He was not really interested in much beyond that.

Domino

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RE: Is BDSM against the law in Maine - 1/28/2008 7:06:02 AM

scottjk

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I'll admit, upon reflection, that they did mention the Fourth, probably indirectly. They focused on the idea of PC itself as a method of how an officer functioned and using a logical process when making a decision to make an arrest with an eye toward public safety. It was often stated that it was better to act and ask for forgiveness later, especially when it was felt that lives were at potential risk. I won't even go into how the subject of DV has created laws that force the violation of the Fourth in Washington State, not to mention family law. ;) In fact, now that I'm looking at this even closer, you can't use the Fourth as a defense. That would be considered a separate case altogether, looking at it logically.

We've gone pretty far afield, on this. Is BDSM illegal? By itself, no. That can be a solid answer. Are there legal and financial issues involved with BDSM activities? Absolutely! I'm not trying to be a fear monger on this. Some aspects of BDSM superficially look like violence from the view of a law enforcement agency. Of those aspects, a prudent officer would certainly make an arrest pending an investigation. No Fourth violation there. However, the fourth can't be considered violated until there's an arrest, an investigation and you explain your case to the judge wearing inmate orange. :) Even THEN, the judge may consider that PC was satisfied in the face of what the officer saw, rather than what actually happened.

My argument has always been this: Can you afford the lost time and money involved with an arrest related to BDSM? If the answer is no, I'd suggest using great care with who you play with, how you play, where you play and who you tell or allow to observe.

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RE: Is BDSM against the law in Maine - 1/28/2008 10:15:31 AM

SailingBum

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Scott,

As I have said in other posts. I am with you it's not worth the expense and headache to play real hard with someone you don't know very well.

BadOne

< Message edited by SailingBum -- 1/28/2008 10:17:35 AM >

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