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Huckabee's tax plan - 1/6/2008 12:53:29 PM   
Level


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Status: offline 		MANCHESTER, New Hampshire (Reuters) - Republican presidential candidate Mike Huckabee's plan to eliminate all income taxes and replace them with a flat consumption tax has the support of martial arts guru Chuck Norris but few economic analysts.

The former Arkansas governor's victory in the Iowa caucus, which kicked off the presidential nomination process for the November 2008 White House race, will bring his policy proposals under closer scrutiny as the candidates do battle in the New Hampshire primary on Tuesday.

Much of the focus has been on the social conservatism of Huckabee, an ordained Baptist preacher who has connected solidly with his party's influential evangelical base.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080106/pl_nm/usa_politics_huckabee_taxes_dc_2;_ylt=AhMR.hezTzv3j9Kd_UJgR5gE1vAI

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RE: Huckabee's tax plan - 1/6/2008 12:57:29 PM   
DomKen


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Status: offline 		Huckabee's for the downright stupid 'Fair Tax.'

It's a national sales tax on final sales only. That is the raw material producers, manufacturers and distributors pay virtually nothing, only on office supplies and such, while the consumer pays for the whole of the federal government. That's 'fair?'

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RE: Huckabee's tax plan - 1/6/2008 1:48:54 PM   
MistressNew


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Status: offline 		Really, this seems like just another terrible idea from the far-right.  It seems like just another way to make the middle class pay more in taxes and take the corporations even further off the hook.

But who knows?  Maybe Huckabee is a smart guy.  Consult this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U8tVbH5NfvQ

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RE: Huckabee's tax plan - 1/6/2008 1:55:35 PM   
youngatheartsub


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Status: offline 		The tax plan is a good one. The taxes would be embedded in the price you pay. If the manufacturer is now not paying extra taxes and passing it on to us the final cost would remain the same at retail. It would also force everyone to share the tax burden (underground economy) illegal aliens too . Plus you would get a rebate each month to ease your taxes on staples of living . duh, its a no brainer.

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RE: Huckabee's tax plan - 1/6/2008 2:18:41 PM   
philosophy


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Status: offline 		......so, a tax based not on the ability to pay but on the price of that which is bought?
i'm sure there are a lot of high earners out there chuckling about that idea. However, has anyone calculated the effect on, say, the lowest earning ten percent of society and those on fixed incomes and pensions?

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RE: Huckabee's tax plan - 1/6/2008 2:35:06 PM   
GoddessDustyGold


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Huckabee's for the downright stupid 'Fair Tax.'

It's a national sales tax on final sales only. That is the raw material producers, manufacturers and distributors pay virtually nothing, only on office supplies and such, while the consumer pays for the whole of the federal government. That's 'fair?'


Do you honestly think that the cost of these taxes are not being passed on to the ultimate consumer via higher wholesale prices which are then taxed the final time at the final retail consumer level? I think I read once that a loaf of bread is taxed nine times before it even gets to the supermarket shelf.  We are already paying for "the whole of federal governement".  It just doesn't feel like it because we are paying for it in the actual retail prices and then feeling only a tiny sting from that final retail sales tax. 
Either that consumer sales tax has to go way up, or the federal government has to come way down.  I vote for the latter. 
My question to Huckabee would be how much would this "fair tax" need to be, and how much is he going to cut out of the fed fat so that it is palatable.

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RE: Huckabee's tax plan - 1/6/2008 3:32:26 PM   
DomKen


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Status: offline 		Sorry no. The supporters of this idea inherently assume that the removal of those taxes will result in manufacturers etc. lowering their prices by that amount. Which is patently and completely absurd. Those now elevated prices will go directly into profit and the retail tier which would be tasked with collecting the tax would raise their prices to cover their new overhead so consumers would wind up, for years at least, paying much higher prices with the 20 odd percent sales tax tacked on top of that amount. Getting a government check every year to offset the sales tax on neccessities would of course be done poorly if at all.

Thanks but no thanks.

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RE: Huckabee's tax plan - 1/6/2008 3:53:08 PM   
seeksfemslave


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quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

......so, a tax based not on the ability to pay but on the price of that which is bought?
i'm sure there are a lot of high earners out there chuckling about that idea. However, has anyone calculated the effect on, say, the lowest earning ten percent of society and those on fixed incomes and pensions?

Philosophy...its called VAT in the UK. We have had it since the blessed Margaret
I wish she had given you a good talking to Maybe that would have knocked some  sense into you he he he

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RE: Huckabee's tax plan - 1/6/2008 3:54:34 PM   
dcnovice


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quote:

its called VAT in the UK


Is VAT in place of income taxes or in addition to them?

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RE: Huckabee's tax plan - 1/6/2008 4:03:36 PM   
seeksfemslave


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Status: offline 		Addition....of course lol
Adding: to be serious I recall tax allowences were increased  and tax rates were reduced ...but not by much.

The UK I suspect is the most highly taxed country in the developed world.
Sweden may be worse

< Message edited by seeksfemslave -- 1/6/2008 4:06:46 PM >

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RE: Huckabee's tax plan - 1/6/2008 4:10:19 PM   
KenDckey


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Status: offline 		Personally I like the concept of a VAT.  Then you pay the price that you see it marked at unless you can negotiate something else.  and I believe that the wholesale/producers would lower their prices.   If not, I believe that there would be a consumer revolt and the increased purchase of goods and services overseas if they didn't.   Then restructure import duties once the revolt had settled in to allowing major end items into the country (i.e. vehicles) free or with low duties to be paid, and extremely high on repair/replacement parts.   I've seen this work well for other countries in boosting domestic production.

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RE: Huckabee's tax plan - 1/6/2008 4:17:55 PM   
Griswold


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quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

......so, a tax based not on the ability to pay but on the price of that which is bought?
i'm sure there are a lot of high earners out there chuckling about that idea. However, has anyone calculated the effect on, say, the lowest earning ten percent of society and those on fixed incomes and pensions?


Possibly you missed the post just before yours regarding the rebate for staples and such.

His plan also includes rebates (refunds) for those earning under "X$"...I'd guess it'd be something along the lines of $50,000 - $100,000.00 income level, plus or minus something if you have kids to pay for, other breaks I'm sure would be added.

Warren Buffet, Bill Gates, among others who currently pay probably (I'm actually guessing) less than 10 - 15% tax on all their various income sources have been the ones screaming the loudest "TAX MEEEEEEEE" because they recognize the unfairness of the deal, whereas the bulk of the above $30,000.00 income population pays above 25%...these guys, who make literally carloads of money....would pay 27% (or whatever the tax rate comes to be) on basically everything (except the first 50 or 100k, just like everyone else)....except....their car doesn't cost 30k, it costs 600k because they need bullet proof glass....their house doesn't cost 200k or 400k....it's 40 million because they need to entertain in their business...and their security system costs twice what you paid for your house....

Each of those purchases, currently a write off, subject to a standard 7 - 10% sales tax....would now be subject to a 27% VAT (Value Added Tax) at the federal level.

The average citizen wouldn't pay the tax at all...because their purchases would tend to fall near their income (except for the every 4 year car purchase, and the every 7 year house purchase), which I'd be willing to bet, for close to 45% of the population, would be excluded...much the same that currently the top 10% of income earners pay 90% of the total tax paid in.

A VAT...essentially a national sales tax is the only fair tax out there if what you want is a tax that allows those in the bottom tiers to pay little to nothing...since that's effectively what they have, the middle tier to pay a little less than they pay now....which is about 78% of the tax paying populace (by count...not actual revenues)...and since they have the voting power, they'll no doubt see having the big guys pay the bulk (as they do currently anyway) as just peachy.

Except that the big boys can readily afford to pay a higher tax, actually would like to (according to polls), but aren't required to...and so...don't.

No more than you or I send in an additional 15% on top of our tax bill with a nice handwritten note saying..."Say, listen guys....that whole debt thing...it's really bugging me....here's an extra $7,000.00....stick it on my share....kay?"
 
(Do your homework before making such ridiculous statements).

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RE: Huckabee's tax plan - 1/6/2008 4:20:54 PM   
Griswold


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

its called VAT in the UK


Is VAT in place of income taxes or in addition to them?


In this country, it's being proposed as in place of.

< Message edited by Griswold -- 1/6/2008 4:21:30 PM >

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RE: Huckabee's tax plan - 1/6/2008 4:30:01 PM   
Lordandmaster


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Status: offline 		One day American voters might finally wake up and discover that the majority of their taxes go to local tax collectors, not the federal government.  Your federal taxes are only a fraction of the taxes you pay.  Chances are, the HIGHEST bill comes in the form of real-estate tax, if you own your home, or real-estate tax passed on to you in the form of rent, if you don't.

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RE: Huckabee's tax plan - 1/6/2008 5:00:22 PM   
KenDckey


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

One day American voters might finally wake up and discover that the majority of their taxes go to local tax collectors, not the federal government.  Your federal taxes are only a fraction of the taxes you pay.  Chances are, the HIGHEST bill comes in the form of real-estate tax, if you own your home, or real-estate tax passed on to you in the form of rent, if you don't.


OK   so I got turbo tax in the mail already and did some preliminary number crunching.   This year (in round figures) I made $35,000 (gross).    I paid $2,600 in state/local sales taxes and my fed tax bill will be $1,500.   Plus another couple hundred for property taxes.  

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RE: Huckabee's tax plan - 1/6/2008 5:15:23 PM   
Sanity


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Status: offline 		The lowest earning segment of society would obviously pay the least in taxes under such a plan. No loopholes for the rich, just a grocery tax rebate for the poor...

Sounds good to me.


quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

......so, a tax based not on the ability to pay but on the price of that which is bought?
i'm sure there are a lot of high earners out there chuckling about that idea. However, has anyone calculated the effect on, say, the lowest earning ten percent of society and those on fixed incomes and pensions?


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RE: Huckabee's tax plan - 1/6/2008 5:17:41 PM   
GoddessDustyGold


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Sorry no. The supporters of this idea inherently assume that the removal of those taxes will result in manufacturers etc. lowering their prices by that amount. Which is patently and completely absurd. Those now elevated prices will go directly into profit and the retail tier which would be tasked with collecting the tax would raise their prices to cover their new overhead so consumers would wind up, for years at least, paying much higher prices with the 20 odd percent sales tax tacked on top of that amount. Getting a government check every year to offset the sales tax on neccessities would of course be done poorly if at all.

Thanks but no thanks.


*shrug*  Some may lower prices in an effort to capture a bit more of the consumer pie.  Or they may not.  Prices are already where they are.  By leaving it the same, if they do not have to pay the taxes, they are increasing their profitability.  They may not need it, since they may already have plenty of profitability, but I do not pretend that the greedy bastards will suddenly grow a heart.  It always comes down to the bottom line.
My point concerning your original post was that you seem to be imparting the idea that manufacturers, et al, are paying at least some of the taxes, when in reality they pay nothing.  Sure they write a check, but they have already charged for or collected to cover that check from the next one in line.  They always pass those taxes on and do not absorb that expense as a cost of doing business.  So we are paying it all anyway.  To pretend that they are not accounting for this expense in their prices, wherever they may fall on the food chain, is naive at best.

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They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety
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Don't blame Me ~ I didn't vote for either of them
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RE: Huckabee's tax plan - 1/7/2008 3:17:20 AM   
NeedToUseYou


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Huckabee's for the downright stupid 'Fair Tax.'

It's a national sales tax on final sales only. That is the raw material producers, manufacturers and distributors pay virtually nothing, only on office supplies and such, while the consumer pays for the whole of the federal government. That's 'fair?'


You do realize all taxes are already passed to the consumer. It makes more sense to clump all taxes in one location than spread it out along the chain, if we are going to have  federal taxes. They pass on the tax cost to the product anyway. It makes zero difference where it is applied in the chain.
I'd prefer to just eliminate large sections of the government, and reduce spending in other areas. But if this country is dead set on having big government and wants a way to fund big government then a National Sales Tax makes more sense than the present system. It's not perfect but it's an improvement.

The poor don't buy that much stuff anyway, I'd hope any national sales tax wouldn't tax food staples like bread, apples, flour, green beans, they can tax the hell of processed foods, they aren't required to survive. And if they give everyone in the country an identical rebate check monthly based on overall tax collection, then it addresses the lowest denominator there as well. Plus it taxes even those in illegal professions. That's got to be worth something.

I think it'd help the poor more than the present system, and lower the overall tax burden to some degree. Again, It's not my ideal solution but better than present. It's not worse. I don't think anyone could claim that.

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RE: Huckabee's tax plan - 1/7/2008 5:05:41 AM   
subfever


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NeedToUseYou

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Huckabee's for the downright stupid 'Fair Tax.'

It's a national sales tax on final sales only. That is the raw material producers, manufacturers and distributors pay virtually nothing, only on office supplies and such, while the consumer pays for the whole of the federal government. That's 'fair?'


You do realize all taxes are already passed to the consumer. It makes more sense to clump all taxes in one location than spread it out along the chain, if we are going to have  federal taxes. They pass on the tax cost to the product anyway. It makes zero difference where it is applied in the chain.
I'd prefer to just eliminate large sections of the government, and reduce spending in other areas. But if this country is dead set on having big government and wants a way to fund big government then a National Sales Tax makes more sense than the present system. It's not perfect but it's an improvement.

The poor don't buy that much stuff anyway, I'd hope any national sales tax wouldn't tax food staples like bread, apples, flour, green beans, they can tax the hell of processed foods, they aren't required to survive. And if they give everyone in the country an identical rebate check monthly based on overall tax collection, then it addresses the lowest denominator there as well. Plus it taxes even those in illegal professions. That's got to be worth something.

I think it'd help the poor more than the present system, and lower the overall tax burden to some degree. Again, It's not my ideal solution but better than present. It's not worse. I don't think anyone could claim that.



No, it probably wouldn't be any worse. But why settle for such low expectations, as opposed to achieving the ideal solution?  This is like saying, "We're only going to steal $2,000 from you this year, instead of the usual $3,000."

< Message edited by subfever -- 1/7/2008 5:06:08 AM >

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RE: Huckabee's tax plan - 1/7/2008 6:38:04 AM   
OrionTheWolf


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Status: offline 		Yes the studies took that into account, and that is why they came up with a PREBATE and the amount would be set based upon the amount the poor would pay in taxes, so they would receive a check from the government to cover their taxes.


quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

......so, a tax based not on the ability to pay but on the price of that which is bought?
i'm sure there are a lot of high earners out there chuckling about that idea. However, has anyone calculated the effect on, say, the lowest earning ten percent of society and those on fixed incomes and pensions?


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