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RE: Huckabee's tax plan - 1/7/2008 8:21:33 AM   
philosophy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

......so, a tax based not on the ability to pay but on the price of that which is bought?
i'm sure there are a lot of high earners out there chuckling about that idea. However, has anyone calculated the effect on, say, the lowest earning ten percent of society and those on fixed incomes and pensions?

Philosophy...its called VAT in the UK. We have had it since the blessed Margaret
I wish she had given you a good talking to Maybe that would have knocked some  sense into you he he he


......wel, it's not VAT because it replaces income tax. .......as for La Thatch giving me a good talking to, i'm afraid that wont work. i have never let bullies dictate my values, so i can't be convinced that it is ok to disadvantage the poorest of society so that the middle classes can get a tax break. Besides, nowadays, all i'd need to do is wave a bottle of scotch in front of her and she'd forget what she was banging on about........

(in reply to seeksfemslave)
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RE: Huckabee's tax plan - 1/7/2008 8:37:05 AM   
NeedToUseYou


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quote:

ORIGINAL: subfever

quote:

ORIGINAL: NeedToUseYou

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Huckabee's for the downright stupid 'Fair Tax.'

It's a national sales tax on final sales only. That is the raw material producers, manufacturers and distributors pay virtually nothing, only on office supplies and such, while the consumer pays for the whole of the federal government. That's 'fair?'


You do realize all taxes are already passed to the consumer. It makes more sense to clump all taxes in one location than spread it out along the chain, if we are going to have  federal taxes. They pass on the tax cost to the product anyway. It makes zero difference where it is applied in the chain.
I'd prefer to just eliminate large sections of the government, and reduce spending in other areas. But if this country is dead set on having big government and wants a way to fund big government then a National Sales Tax makes more sense than the present system. It's not perfect but it's an improvement.

The poor don't buy that much stuff anyway, I'd hope any national sales tax wouldn't tax food staples like bread, apples, flour, green beans, they can tax the hell of processed foods, they aren't required to survive. And if they give everyone in the country an identical rebate check monthly based on overall tax collection, then it addresses the lowest denominator there as well. Plus it taxes even those in illegal professions. That's got to be worth something.

I think it'd help the poor more than the present system, and lower the overall tax burden to some degree. Again, It's not my ideal solution but better than present. It's not worse. I don't think anyone could claim that.



No, it probably wouldn't be any worse. But why settle for such low expectations, as opposed to achieving the ideal solution?  This is like saying, "We're only going to steal $2,000 from you this year, instead of the usual $3,000."


I'd prefer otherwise, but if it comes down to two candidates  and one proposes to do something if even slightly better than now in regards to Federal Taxation,  compared to another candidate that will do nothing. I'll pick the marginal improvement over nothing. I'm just pointing out it is better than the current system not that it is perfect.

I'm supporting Ron Paul as long as he's running, but if there comes a point he stops running. I'd consider the remaining by the criteria of who is going to do something at all in regards to the things I care about. I'd 1000000000 times prefer Ron Paul's solution over the huckabee plan. I don't even like Huckabee. But if he addresses realigning the tax system to some degree versus nothing. I'll vote for a marginal improvement. Until then I support Ron Paul, and hope that somehow he wins the nomination. Voting for Huckabee would be voting lesser of two evils, nothing more.

(in reply to subfever)
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RE: Huckabee's tax plan - 1/7/2008 8:48:50 AM   
Archer


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Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline 		#1 The prebate is based not on income but rather on the poverty level and is applied to everyone rich or poor.

If poverty rate for family of 4 is $40,000 then prebate check each month would be the fair tax amount (40,000 X 0.23)/ 12 months= 766.66 Which covers all the "Fair Tax" one would presumably spend to buy the necessities of life for a family of 4.
Every family of 4 would be sent a monthly check for that amount. So as written they tax EVERYTHING food included and remove the regressiveness through the prebate. If you spend every penny of your paycheck on new goods right up to the poverty level then the net taxes paid would be $0, the first penny of net tax paid out of pocket would be the $0.23 on the $40,001st dollar spent by a family of 4 the tax on the first 40,000 would be covered entirely by the prebate.
(NOTE the 40,000 number as the poverty level is made up actual numbers would be gathered from the poverty level statistics the government collects)

#2 The Corporations alredy pass on an embedded tax estimated at about 21 to 22 % accumulated into the prices we currently pay. (Studies available as a citation easly found through google). The reduction does not depend on growing a new heart, but rather on the greed of the companies for market share. Only takes one company per market to make the move to reduce prices to try to capture a larger market share to start the ball rolling. It is GREED that will cause this to happen, because companies look at market share as much as profit margin.

#3 The Fair tax as proposed replaces not only the income tax but also the Social Security Tax and Medicare Tax.
This disproportionatly helps the poorest since Social Security and Medicare are regressive.

#4 the Fair Tax is proposed as a tax only on new goods, so Old homes, Old cars, and any used goods will be sold without tax again disproportionately favoring the poorer and middle income folks, who buy used cars instead of new, and old homes instead of newly built.

#5 The Fair tax is not designed to do anything to your State or Local taxes, they don't have the authority to do anything about those. (It's that damned 10th Ammendment again) So you'll have to find reductions in those taxes at a State and local level.

#6 There have already been multiple corporations that have said they would move their headquarters to the US if the Fair Tax was implimented, the Boom in jobs would be HUGE. So this proposal also reverses some if not all of the outsourcing of jobs. No Taxes on Corporate level, you bet they'll be movong back into the US from overseas.

#7 By product of the tax is also that people may well actually slow down their consumption. It punishes spending beyond the poverty level, so social engineering wise it should reduce the American disease of conspicuous consumption in the middle and lower income levels.

#8 The Fair Tax is not a tax reduction plan, it is/was designed to be revenue neutral. It should collect the same amount of money that is currently being collected by Income Taxes, Capital Gains Taxes, Social Security, and Medicare Taxes.
It does not replace exsize taxes or import duties.


(in reply to OrionTheWolf)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: Huckabee's tax plan - 1/7/2008 9:30:13 AM   
IronLion


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Joined: 6/1/2006
Status: offline 		Sounds nifty, Archer... and what would Huckabee do if he found out someone like you, or indeed, someone like any of us were his neighbour? Or rather... what would god tell him to do?

(in reply to Archer)
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RE: Huckabee's tax plan - 1/7/2008 11:55:26 AM   
DomKen


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Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline 		The problem is that this all so very naive.

Are we going to start taxing exports somehow? We still do quite a lot of export manufacturing in the US and this plan would shift all the taxes those businesses now pay onto the consumers. This might be good for those business in the short term, likely why some companies are claiming they'll bring their operations back into the US, but not so pleasant for those stuck paying their share.

In the long term some prices would come down. But a lot wouldn't. Food for instance. ADM is a near monopoly and no amount of the miniscule competitors undercutting their prices will be noticeable to consumers. ADM's got really 3 true competitors in its core businesses and they've been repeatedly caught fixing prices worldwide. That means that bread and everything else made with processed grains or soy will have a huge component remaining at todays prices with a 20+% sales tax dumped on top.

Ever notice how gas prices go up as soon as a new tax is passed or any upward spike in crude prices, long before such increases could affect the gas being sold, and it takes a very long time for prices to come down even with a lot of competition? How long would gas prices take to come down to some sort of reasonable 'fair tax level'? 5 years? Never?

The prebate? Does anybody really believe the republicans backing this plan would actually see through getting the prebate legislation passed? How hard do you think it will be to get those checks? How long before another Reagan comes along telling lies about 'prebate queens in their prebate cadillacs'?

Want to bet there would be loopholes for large transactions? Maybe a low volume exception where businesses making fewer than a hundred sales a month/year would be exempt, to protect small businesses from the overhead of collecting the tax of course? Just so the yachts and houses and top end luxury cars would be tax free while the suckers carry the whole load.

The present system is bad I'll admit but the 'fair tax' is supported by exactly the wrong people for me to believe it is really intended to help me.

< Message edited by DomKen -- 1/7/2008 11:57:20 AM >

(in reply to IronLion)
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RE: Huckabee's tax plan - 1/7/2008 12:07:57 PM   
nagatzhul2


Posts: 24
Joined: 1/28/2007
Status: offline 		There will be a lot of ways to avoid taxation with Huckabee's plan. You won't be taxed on rent like you are now, no federal tax on food, no taxes on used items, and no taxes on raw materials. Instead of being taxed multiple times on an item (because it all trickles down to the consumer any way), you will be only be taxed once on taxable items.

Sounds like a win/win to me. No more hidden taxation. At least as it is represented right now. Who knows how it will pan out in the long run.

(in reply to DomKen)
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RE: Huckabee's tax plan - 1/7/2008 3:03:03 PM   
Archer


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Joined: 3/11/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: IronLion

Sounds nifty, Archer... and what would Huckabee do if he found out someone like you, or indeed, someone like any of us were his neighbour? Or rather... what would god tell him to do?


Well first assumption you make is that I support Huckabee. I'm not a huge fan of his other than this single policy item.
Second what part of my explination of the Fair Tax comes off as support of Huckabee anyway? I support the legislation, he happens to support it too.
Hell I have bits and pieces of legislation I support that are backed by most of the Republicans and maybe half the Democrats.

But this does provide and excellent example of what you have to start with when you assume.

(in reply to IronLion)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: Huckabee's tax plan - 1/7/2008 3:11:49 PM   
Shawn1066


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Joined: 10/7/2007
Status: offline 		A nice little speech on the matter by Mr. Huckabee.  Also, I support him and I think he'd know that I'd be a great neighbor. :-p

http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/politics/2008/01/06/sot.huckabee.windham.cnn

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RE: Huckabee's tax plan - 1/7/2008 4:33:54 PM   
DomKen


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From: Chicago, IL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shawn1066

A nice little speech on the matter by Mr. Huckabee.  Also, I support him and I think he'd know that I'd be a great neighbor. :-p

http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/politics/2008/01/06/sot.huckabee.windham.cnn

You thought well of that speech? Anecdotes and blather, no proposals or policy positions. He says he's pro life but that covers quite a bit of ground and he should tell people he olds the most extreme position, no abortion ever no matter the health consequences of the mother. no matter if the pregnancy is the result of rape or incest, no exceptions ever.

He complains that taxes needs an overhaul but all he does is tell an anecdotal story, be interesting to see if the media can find that machinist, whose protaganist his proposal would not help! The fair tax is supposed to be revenue neutral but with the wealthy who earn more but save more paying much less in tax the working stiff who is trying to finance his daughters grad school education will pay a much higher percentage of his income to federal taxes just to have the proposal remain revenue neutral.

Huckabee is lucky that the RR is so damn stupid they'll vote for any two bit liar as long as he mouths the pablum they've been told to support.

(in reply to Shawn1066)
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RE: Huckabee's tax plan - 1/7/2008 5:16:07 PM   
OrionTheWolf


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Joined: 10/11/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

The problem is that this all so very naive.

Are we going to start taxing exports somehow? We still do quite a lot of export manufacturing in the US and this plan would shift all the taxes those businesses now pay onto the consumers. This might be good for those business in the short term, likely why some companies are claiming they'll bring their operations back into the US, but not so pleasant for those stuck paying their share.


The consumer already pays. The businesses operate on a net percentage that if not made, you might as well sell of the pieces of the company.

quote:


In the long term some prices would come down. But a lot wouldn't. Food for instance. ADM is a near monopoly and no amount of the miniscule competitors undercutting their prices will be noticeable to consumers. ADM's got really 3 true competitors in its core businesses and they've been repeatedly caught fixing prices worldwide. That means that bread and everything else made with processed grains or soy will have a huge component remaining at todays prices with a 20+% sales tax dumped on top.


Unlikely since this would also cause prices to ne examined alot more. The possibility for other companies to actually come about and compete would be great, if they did not reduce the price. There is no studies to show what you predict, and what you predict goes against most business growth models.

quote:


Ever notice how gas prices go up as soon as a new tax is passed or any upward spike in crude prices, long before such increases could affect the gas being sold, and it takes a very long time for prices to come down even with a lot of competition? How long would gas prices take to come down to some sort of reasonable 'fair tax level'? 5 years? Never?


Those new taxes you are refering to, are added on top of the price because they do not replace anything that the gas company is already paying. Do you understand gross profit, net profit, and what effects each one? The Fair Tax would eliminate the 22% imbedded tax already there, and there would be other reductions in expense because corporate taxes would be eliminated. All of those expenses would be eliminated, and all companies would be able to lower prices, or become more salary competitive.

quote:


The prebate? Does anybody really believe the republicans backing this plan would actually see through getting the prebate legislation passed? How hard do you think it will be to get those checks? How long before another Reagan comes along telling lies about 'prebate queens in their prebate cadillacs'?


The prebate is part of it, and the only way to compensate for the poverty level. You are just spewing rhetoric to try and scare people now. What is the difference in a republican using fear tactics and a democrat using fear tactics? Nothing.

quote:


Want to bet there would be loopholes for large transactions? Maybe a low volume exception where businesses making fewer than a hundred sales a month/year would be exempt, to protect small businesses from the overhead of collecting the tax of course? Just so the yachts and houses and top end luxury cars would be tax free while the suckers carry the whole load.


As the bill stands right now, there are no loopholes. Care to actually look at the bill and use some facts, instead of this sky is falling arguement?

quote:


The present system is bad I'll admit but the 'fair tax' is supported by exactly the wrong people for me to believe it is really intended to help me.


The present system is horrible. It gives power to the politicians "vote for me and I will cut taxes" . It can be easily manipulated by those with enough money to hire a good tax accountant. It cannot be understood in it's entirety, even by those that are in charge of it. It requires too many employees to maintain. It treats people unjustly. It does not capture taxes of those here illegally, engaged in lillegal enterprise, or those that can hide their money.

The Fair Tax may have some problems, but compared to what we have, it is great. 

_____________________________

When speaking of slaves people always tend to ignore this definition "One who is abjectly subservient to a specified person or influence."

(in reply to DomKen)
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