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A Master: Opinions on BDSM - 2/17/2004 11:36:08 PM   
draxxe


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A Master: Opinions on BDSM,

I am old Guard to the truest form I was trained a slave. Over time i have learnt to Master. I was taught respect is not given, it's earned. I find that alot of people don't truly understand this consept so i am offering my opinions in hopes that some out there will find this helping. A Master is somone who knows them self fully who takes the time to learn more who is willing to teach others without fear of loosing their respect for sharing this knowledge. I find too many times that a Dom/Domme is afraid of showing they are not perfect and their ego henders the growth of them being Master over this. I hear of some Dom/Domme's who are affraid to admit they are bottoms in bed. And i hear the term abused in S&M, of somone having vass knowledge of how to do somthing or use it but they keep from sharing the experiance they have learned to try to have a faulse sence of power over the less knowledable.

Draxxe
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RE: A Master: Opinions on BDSM - 3/5/2004 2:54:14 AM   
MistressDREAD


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Hi Draxxe
We havent Met yet
My name is Mistress DREAD
~smiles~

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RE: A Master: Opinions on BDSM - 3/27/2004 9:58:46 PM   
MistressDREAD


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RE: A Master: Opinions on BDSM - 3/28/2004 6:46:16 AM   
MizSuz


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quote:

ORIGINAL: draxxe

A Master: Opinions on BDSM,

I am old Guard to the truest form I was trained a slave. Over time i have learnt to Master. I was taught respect is not given, it's earned. I find that alot of people don't truly understand this consept so i am offering my opinions in hopes that some out there will find this helping. A Master is somone who knows them self fully who takes the time to learn more who is willing to teach others without fear of loosing their respect for sharing this knowledge. I find too many times that a Dom/Domme is afraid of showing they are not perfect and their ego henders the growth of them being Master over this. I hear of some Dom/Domme's who are affraid to admit they are bottoms in bed. And i hear the term abused in S&M, of somone having vass knowledge of how to do somthing or use it but they keep from sharing the experiance they have learned to try to have a faulse sence of power over the less knowledable.

Draxxe



Greetings Draxxe and welcome to the boards.

I have a question:

In this old guard process of taking the time to learn - is it also considered standard operating procedure to master (or try to master) the chosen method of communication? Do you consider yourself a good example of this?

< Message edited by MizSuz -- 3/28/2004 9:46:32 AM >


_____________________________

“The more you love, the more you can love—and the more intensely you love. Nor is there any limit on how many you can love. If a person had time enough, he could love all of that majority who are decent and just.”
- Robert Heinlein

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RE: A Master: Opinions on BDSM - 3/28/2004 7:00:19 AM   
MrKing


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Actually, the various "old guard" or traditional methods of training, in all things, admit two things -


  • The existence of a learning curve to all things.
  • The inability to be perfect at all things.


Those who consider trivialities overly significant are likely to dismiss other things as seeming trivialities.

Or in other words, was it their sub-par grammar and spelling that got in the way, or your perfectionism?

I'd not comment on this, as it's such a trival and commonplace nitpick that ordinarily it would be something to simply ignore. In context, though, you are trying to top someone who claims earned dominance and earned respect.

And that amounts to a childish "No I <i>don't</i> have to respect you."

Indeed, you don't. But if you insist on making people PROVE they deserve respect by engaging in silly pissing contests, you will likely never learn why and on what basis they have the reason, or lack of reason to believe they deserve a modicum of courtesy until such a time as they have an opportunity to earn genuine respect.

Because - erm - it's an average. "Respected Masters" are on balanced judged as much by who has a reflexive hissy fit when their name is mentioned as otherwise. It would be arrogant of me to suggest that would be the case between me and Jon Jacobs, for instance, but I can say our lack of respect is mutual, and based on reasons that are fundimental to our respective views of bdsm.

Or rather, mine and Polly's.

_____________________________

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practical libertarianism, free speech, etc.[img]http://tn.cafepress.com/9/2772269_TN.jpg[/img]

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RE: A Master: Opinions on BDSM - 3/28/2004 8:11:04 AM   
MizSuz


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That's a significant response to two simple questions.

This is a genuine point of interest for me (although it would seem that you have attached other motivations for me). I see many people who profess to either be Gorean or Old Guard who simply communicate very poorly in a written venue. There is one such person on these very boards whose writing style is so difficult for me to understand that I don't bother to read her posts. I usually also find third person writing very difficult to read and because of same often skip over posts by people who write this way. It's just a personal preference (not an evil judgement).

That's not to say that people who are not self-identified with gor & old guard are exceptional, only that I have seen much of the former.

For the record, I know a number of people who communicate poorly in writing who are quite wonderful people. I just prefer to limit my written interactions with them. Often it's simply a cost/benefit thing. With these people a phone call is more appropriate.

If you'd asked me I could have clarified that for you. In fact, I would have been happy to do so.

Do you feel better now that you've reprimanded me for being petty?

_____________________________

“The more you love, the more you can love—and the more intensely you love. Nor is there any limit on how many you can love. If a person had time enough, he could love all of that majority who are decent and just.”
- Robert Heinlein

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RE: A Master: Opinions on BDSM - 3/28/2004 8:43:59 AM   
MrKing


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MizSuz

That's not to say that people who are not self-identified with gor & old guard are exceptional, only that I have seen much of the former.

For the record, I know a number of people who communicate poorly in writing who are quite wonderful people. I just prefer to limit my written interactions with them. Often it's simply a cost/benefit thing. With these people a phone call is more appropriate.

If you'd asked me I could have clarified that for you. In fact, I would have been happy to do so.

Do you feel better now that you've reprimanded me for being petty?



yep.

Seriously, we are talking about bad first impressions. There's more than one way to make one.

And yes, of course there are those who are so bad at communicating in print one wonders if they can talk in person - and one has little motivation to find out. But as you say, the next key is your friend.

_____________________________

graphictruth.com
practical libertarianism, free speech, etc.[img]http://tn.cafepress.com/9/2772269_TN.jpg[/img]

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RE: A Master: Opinions on BDSM - 3/28/2004 8:49:44 AM   
MizSuz


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MrKing


yep.

Seriously, we are talking about bad first impressions. There's more than one way to make one.




HAHAHA Well I'm glad you feel better.

As for first impressions....I DID say welcome, didn't I? If I didn't I certainly meant to.

I don't usually say things I don't mean. <smile>

_____________________________

“The more you love, the more you can love—and the more intensely you love. Nor is there any limit on how many you can love. If a person had time enough, he could love all of that majority who are decent and just.”
- Robert Heinlein

(in reply to MrKing)
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RE: A Master: Opinions on BDSM - 3/28/2004 8:59:36 AM   
MizSuz


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draxxe,

I notice on your profile that you enjoy rock climbing. I do a little climbing myself! It's nice to see someone with similar interests (outside of bdsm) here.

If you ever get up to the NYC area and would like to go to the Gunks, do let me know. Bring your shoes and chalkbag.

_____________________________

“The more you love, the more you can love—and the more intensely you love. Nor is there any limit on how many you can love. If a person had time enough, he could love all of that majority who are decent and just.”
- Robert Heinlein

(in reply to draxxe)
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RE: A Master: Opinions on BDSM - 3/29/2004 3:32:34 PM   
MrKing


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MizSuz

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrKing


yep.

Seriously, we are talking about bad first impressions. There's more than one way to make one.




HAHAHA Well I'm glad you feel better.

As for first impressions....I DID say welcome, didn't I? If I didn't I certainly meant to.

I don't usually say things I don't mean. <smile>


I believe you did, and I feel very welcome here - which is why I'm feeling free to be my blunt, aspy self.

Truth in advertisement, don't you know. Or as the old joke goes "But I only need ONE to say yes!"

_____________________________

graphictruth.com
practical libertarianism, free speech, etc.[img]http://tn.cafepress.com/9/2772269_TN.jpg[/img]

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RE: A Master: Opinions on BDSM - 3/29/2004 4:55:38 PM   
MizSuz


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MrKing

quote:

ORIGINAL: MizSuz

As for first impressions....I DID say welcome, didn't I? If I didn't I certainly meant to.

I don't usually say things I don't mean. <smile>



I believe you did, and I feel very welcome here - which is why I'm feeling free to be my blunt, aspy self.




<smile> I meant...I did say "welcome" to draxxe...the original poster.

I haven't any problem at all with blunt...I prefer it, in fact.

Welcome to you, too.

_____________________________

“The more you love, the more you can love—and the more intensely you love. Nor is there any limit on how many you can love. If a person had time enough, he could love all of that majority who are decent and just.”
- Robert Heinlein

(in reply to MrKing)
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RE: A Master: Opinions on BDSM - 3/30/2004 8:37:40 AM   
MrKing


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Ah. Well, that clears up a confusion I was deadpanning my way around.

:)

Anyhoo, since I mentioned "aspy bluntness," I should also wave hi to all the Bondage Geeks out there who find explicit negotiation and direct communication to be sexy as all hell, not just because it's about kinky shit, but because it's actual communication instead of that baffling Jr.High dance of indirection and eyelash fluttering that makes "geek code" seem like simple english.

And here's to BDSM, straight shooters, and a submissive's best hope for finding a sexy nerd with a nice ...portfolio. :)

_____________________________

graphictruth.com
practical libertarianism, free speech, etc.[img]http://tn.cafepress.com/9/2772269_TN.jpg[/img]

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RE: A Master: Opinions on BDSM - 3/30/2004 6:26:42 PM   
draxxe


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yes you do try to master everything in your life

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RE: A Master: Opinions on BDSM - 3/30/2004 6:27:44 PM   
draxxe


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ty

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RE: A Master: Opinions on BDSM - 3/30/2004 6:30:07 PM   
draxxe


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sounds good i go to Master marley alot find the climb you find me :)

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RE: A Master: Opinions on BDSM - 3/30/2004 6:32:28 PM   
draxxe


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Well you all have said i cant spell ok fine i admit that and alot of other things totally not relaited thow i found them interesting i would enjoy far more opinions on the meaning of what i wrote

Draxxe

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RE: A Master: Opinions on BDSM - 3/30/2004 9:05:09 PM   
inyouagain


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Draxxe are you from the US or from Europe? I know from my experiences living in Europe that most German dialects construct sentences backwards relative to what US citizens are accustomed to.

Kommen aus Deutschland Draxxe? Ich begreife die Schwierigkeit in der Übersetzung zu Englisch, wenn Sie sind ein deutscher Staatsangehöriger.

quote:

ORIGINAL: draxxe
I am old Guard to the truest form I was trained a slave. Over time i have learnt to Master. I was taught respect is not given, it's earned. I find that alot of people don't truly understand this consept so i am offering my opinions in hopes that some out there will find this helping.

I agree that respect (and trust) is earned, not given, or to be expected, from either side of the dynamic, across genders. However, there is a very large difference between 'respect & trust', and simple courtesy. For example, if you are introduced to someone as Master Draxxe: It is simple courtesy for those meeting you to refer to you as Sir, or Master Draxxe... whether they respect or trust you, you've not earned either, but are afforded common courtesy.

quote:


A Master is somone who knows them self fully who takes the time to learn more who is willing to teach others without fear of loosing their respect for sharing this knowledge. I find too many times that a Dom/Domme is afraid of showing they are not perfect and their ego henders the growth of them being Master over this.

Are you referring to Old Guard Master (way you were trained), or Gorean Dom which you stated that you are on your profile? Do you see Master as a graduation from Dom, or parallel along the power division? Do you see Master as any person who has Mastered themself fully?

IMHO, a Master would not be concerned with losing respect of others for sharing his knowledge, unless he really has no knowledge to share and is feigning having such.

On the issue of always being perfect (or right), not admitting to possessing human characteristics and weaknesses, I agree it is indeed a hurdle to knowing one's self and growing, or nurturing one's self. However, this is also true for either side of the dynamic, and across gender lines.

quote:


I hear of some Dom/Domme's who are affraid to admit they are bottoms in bed.

Since this is hearsay and not your opinion, I will simply say "the grapevine" is not always the most accurate source of information.

quote:


And i hear the term abused in S&M, of somone having vass knowledge of how to do somthing or use it but they keep from sharing the experiance they have learned to try to have a faulse sence of power over the less knowledable.

Wasn't this a tendency of various types of Old Guard organizations which were in a sense secularized? How many Grand Master positions are there in any given organization, and how many Master positions under them? Which Masters are witholding knowledge, Old Guard or Gorean? It must be a regimented organization if there are elder more knowledgeable Masters hoarding knowledge as an issue of job/position security.

Frankly, in the day to day relationship of a Dominant and their sub/slave I do not see the relevance of 'other' knowledge grubbing Masters who are not involved in that relationship, as this would sound like competition. If you are speaking of a mentor, that would be more complex, but in most cases the student does not control the teacher and does not dictate the curriculum. If they disagree or cannot agree that would be another issue.

Actually I can see why not many have offered opinion, as your post is somewhat confusing and I do hope I'm understanding it as you truly intended.

Inyouagain

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RE: A Master: Opinions on BDSM - 3/30/2004 10:15:21 PM   
Estring


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It's not just that the post is confusing, there is not really much to comment on in my opinion. It's almost like saying " the sky is blue, how do you feel about that? "

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RE: A Master: Opinions on BDSM - 3/31/2004 6:26:21 PM   
feline


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Yes i know, i'm stepping out of line here.

In my humble opinion i wish there were more out there like you. *smiles* instead of the weiners i keep getting in my mailbox.

This is how i have always heard "Old Guard" was trained (for lack of a better word) And personally i would like to "hear" more. Please don't get me wrong, this is not a come on. i am just inquisitive.

p.s. - blue sky usually means it's going to be a nice day, mmmm so i usually feel pretty good about it.




Attachment (1)

< Message edited by feline -- 3/31/2004 8:33:47 PM >


_____________________________

Variety is the soul of pleasure.
~Aphra Behn~

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RE: A Master: Opinions on BDSM - 4/1/2004 6:21:00 AM   
MrKing


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quote:

ORIGINAL: feline

Yes i know, i'm stepping out of line here.

In my humble opinion i wish there were more out there like you. *smiles* instead of the weiners i keep getting in my mailbox.

This is how i have always heard "Old Guard" was trained (for lack of a better word) And personally i would like to "hear" more. Please don't get me wrong, this is not a come on. i am just inquisitive.

p.s. - blue sky usually means it's going to be a nice day, mmmm so i usually feel pretty good about it.


I wish there were a better term than "Old Guard." I was trained within a BDSM poly cult using the dynamics and relationships of an obscure martial art. As a result, I'm well-trained in many senses.

(I'm one of the few people I know who can do a flogging with hands alone. Eagle technique - never thouht I'd have a use for it.)

There are good points and bad points to the arrangement. It's a difficult one for the one being trained, as it's often not to the advantage of the senior for the junior to advance. I'd say that the poly aspect complicated this tremendously. But I also observe that learning occurs even when the Master thinks he's not teaching. :>

The most important things I learned there was not, in fact, mastery. That's essentially self-mastery, and I got the tools to do that, but ultimately I feel that's pretty much a job you must do alone.

No, what I learned was how to submit, why one should, what the rewards are, where the buttons are located, what subspace feels like, how to get there, how to USE it mindfully, and therefor, I have a very, very good idea of what to expect of a submissive or slave.

I'm not a natural dominant, and I'm not sure that a natural dominant would be an easy fit for such a relationship, althougugh eastern adventure literature is full of such Master/student relationships. Usually it involves the master beating the holy crap out of the student on a regular basis in such a way as to teach while bruising.

Seems like an awful lot of work to me. But both natural submission and natural dominance are traits that, if allowed to manifest unchecked, make for people that are difficult to live with. In other words, one needs to master one's submission and one's dominance if one is to be a good sub or slave or a good master/dominant/top.

Old guard is one way to do it, another is just plain trial and error. I've done a bit of both. And then there's various sorts of mentorship - I've not tried that, but it seems like a good middle path.

Finally, there are frameworks like Gor which come with a manual. This is a really good idea, but I mislike Gor for a number of reasons, the most pointed being that it's not based on a functional culture.

Personally, I MUCH prefer Horatio Hornblower. A practical, well-described working dynamic, and no lack of flogging!

_____________________________

graphictruth.com
practical libertarianism, free speech, etc.[img]http://tn.cafepress.com/9/2772269_TN.jpg[/img]

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