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A Sacred Take on BDSM - 8/28/2005 1:26:46 PM

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I have a rather unique twist on reasons people enter the scene. Someone recently e-mailed me, having seen that I'm a practicing Wiccan, and presented an interesting side to why they became interested in BDSM. Being Wiccan himself, he found the lifestyle as a way to be more closely in touch with his spiritual side. He claimed, with some seeming validity, that in either bottoming or topping, the exchange of energy creates "sacred space" and brings you more closely in tune with the God and Goddess, Creator, Great Spirit, or whatever your choice phrase is. I've found this to be fairly true for me. In bottoming, my soul seems to merge with that of master, and a sense of the sacred ensues.
I was wondering if any of you have experienced this as well? How has your particular religion or non-religion affected your choice to enter into this lifestyle, if at all? Have you found that being in your particular headspace can bring on a sense of the sacred?
I'm not looking to offend atheists or agnostics, I simply thought that this man's viewpoint was truly unique and wanted to share it and hear other peoples' experiences with the topic. Thanks.

Updated due to an egregious spelling error. Oh dear, it appears I am human after all.

< Message edited by NakedOnMyChain -- 8/28/2005 1:29:44 PM >

_____________________________

"Oh, it's torture, but I'm almost there."
~The Cure

"I ask for so little. Just fear me, love me, do as I say, and I will be your slave."
~The Labyrinth

RE: A Sacred Take on BDSM - 8/28/2005 1:52:45 PM

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The topic of finding a sense of spirituality in BDSM, particularly during a scene, comes up now and again at the munch I attend or smaller gatherings. I find the opinions seem to go from, "Oh puh-lease" (with the appropriate rolling of the eyes), to those of the other end of the scale who feel it is almost a completely spiritual experience and very enlightening. In fact, some of the comments sound to me very very similiar to what I used to hear people say about experimenting with LSD and other recreational drugs.

I can't say that my religon or faith plays a role in my participation in the lifestyle. However, I can say that I feel a sense of spirituality from subspace or even at other times with Master. I think that for me, the feeling of extreme vulnerability, and definitely the humility (not humiliation -- humility) is what causes me to think of it as spiritual, as well as the intensity between us at those times, when I am aware only of him and nothing else, and I am completely open and exposed to him and to him alone.

For me, this brings about the cyle I feel I am part of while being his slave. He is a good Master, which makes me a better slave, which makes me a better mother, which makes me a better daughter, which makes me a better friend, and so on and so on, all of which help me live according to my personal faith, which all then help me to serve him better.....and it all begins again.

Blessed be,
harmony

(in reply to NakedOnMyChain)

RE: A Sacred Take on BDSM - 8/28/2005 1:58:37 PM

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although i am atheist.........no i am not offended. this Q comes up constantly.

someone always interjects some spiritual thing into this lifestyle.

and i am just 'a' citizen w/o a soul. i have no spiritual side of myself.

take care.
wolf

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RE: A Sacred Take on BDSM - 8/28/2005 2:12:44 PM

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I see it as an energy exchange, when it's right. I have a sense that it could be spiritual if developed, but religious...that seems too confining a word for me.

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RE: A Sacred Take on BDSM - 8/28/2005 2:19:52 PM

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Indeed. I tend to use it loosely. I suppose that "spiritual" works better in context. Perhaps mystical, too. Religion does sound a bit too organized.

_____________________________

"Oh, it's torture, but I'm almost there."
~The Cure

"I ask for so little. Just fear me, love me, do as I say, and I will be your slave."
~The Labyrinth

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RE: A Sacred Take on BDSM - 8/28/2005 2:34:27 PM

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There's many of us who find the spirituality of Leather (for some, BDSM) to be significant. I do. Being a Master is a spiritual path that involves a great deal of self discovery and insight, so me. If you ever have a chance to hear Master Steve Sampson and/or Master Skip Chasey speak on the subject, take it. They're not the only ones, but these are the two big figures that always pop into my head.

Fire

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RE: A Sacred Take on BDSM - 8/28/2005 3:26:57 PM

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quote:

I'm not looking to offend atheists or agnostics, I simply thought that this man's viewpoint was truly unique and wanted to share it and hear other peoples' experiences with the topic. Thanks

I'm an atheist and an agnostic. I’m not at all offended by your post because I don’t see how it can exclude me.

I posted the following elsewhere but it was in response to someone who asked how I could be both an agnostic and an atheist within the context of another topic. I offered the following explanation but encouraged the person to stay on the thread topic, which she gracefully did.

Atheism is the lack of belief in the existence of any gods. It can include outright denial of the existence of gods, lack of interest in the existence of gods, and disbelief due to a lack of information.

Agnosticism is the skeptical position of not professing to know for sure if any gods definitely do or definitely do not exist. Contrary to common assumptions, agnosticism is compatible with both atheism and theism. An agnostic can also be an atheist or a theist.

(Source : http://atheism.about.com/)

In my position, I cannot believe in the existence of God because from my perspective, it just doesn't add up. I find that the deity models presented to me are overly simplistic and I can see right through the societal manipulation tactics embedded within them. To me, the religion models do not prove an existence of God, they demonstrate a human need for direction and authority. That is the atheist in me. Now just because I am not willing to follow a series of books telling me what my maker would have wanted me to, that doesn’t mean that I think all of this existence is random. I actually have strong opinions about life, the universe and everything else which best explains my agnostic side. In simpler terms, I don’t take the good word as truth but that hasn’t made me closed to any other possibilities. I’m just coming at it from a very different angle.

quote:

How has your particular religion or non-religion affected your choice to enter into this lifestyle, if at all?

Being an atheist has permitted me to not have a lot of the hang ups that most people who have a religion that dictates right or wrong behaviours have (note that I'm not implying that all that have a religion have these hang-ups but that there are some that do).

I think that my atheist take on our existence has also enabled me to live life to the fullest in that I believe that this is not a dress rehearsal and that I have to live each day like it was the last. That means going to bed with a clear conscience and a sense of satisfaction.

quote:

Have you found that being in your particular headspace can bring on a sense of the sacred?

Because I have an agnostic side to me, I do hold certain things sacred, not in the sense that I attribute them to a deity but in that they are some of life’s precious things. I do value life, existence, my environment, my friends, my family, laughter, beauty... all these things are sacred to me. When I have a moment of bliss, I do find it sacred in the sense that I know this is a moment I want to hold on, reflect upon when things aren’t going so great and use to keep me motivated.

This is just my perspective on things. The thing about being an atheist or an agnostic is that the label itself is more about unity through a rejection of a dogma then an alignment of our ideologies, therefore an other atheist or agnostic can have a completely different perspective from me and that would actually be what it's all about.

- LA

< Message edited by LadyAngelika -- 8/28/2005 3:29:05 PM >

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RE: A Sacred Take on BDSM - 8/28/2005 3:31:35 PM

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As I've said on other threads on spirituality/kink/ds, I think life in general is sacred. I don't think we in Ds or bdsm are any closer to spiritual happiness or any more likely to be spiritually connected than anyone else.

My spirituality is about my entire being, and thus that of course includes my orientation as a slave and my bdsm activities. But, they don't really have much to do with eachother specifically. I'd still be this way even if I didn't do kink or wasn't a slave.

Like most things, who we are influences what we process and how we use our life experiences. If bdsm can be used as a way for people to find fulfillment and spiritual happiness, go for it. There are a billion possible ways.

(in reply to NakedOnMyChain)

RE: A Sacred Take on BDSM - 8/28/2005 3:33:57 PM

Vancouver_cinful

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quote:

ORIGINAL: harmony3709
I find the opinions seem to go from, "Oh puh-lease" (with the appropriate rolling of the eyes), to those of the other end of the scale who feel it is almost a completely spiritual experience and very enlightening.

LOL I used to be one of those who had to restrain from the eye-rolling response...Until I really began to experience deep submission as opposed to kinky sex, and realized that for the first time in my life I was actually completely in the moment.

This is a zen concept I have struggled with for years. Although I am an agnostic I see great potential in Zen Buddhism, and meditation...and the ability to let go of expectations and desires had escaped me until I experienced submission.

Somehow the ability to give over to the complete whim of another individual has helped me give over to the whim of the Universe. I now find I am capable of letting go, and allowing myself to truly experience my life and not intellectualize and manipulate it 24/7.

I'd say I have found a wonderful, delicious, focus for my vague spiritual needs. As I explore long term and deeper submission that focus is becoming a bit clearer. I've even begun working on a series of in-depth articles about it.

I do know, without a doubt, that being able to express and develop my submissiveness has made me a far happier and healthier person, and a far better human being, too, I think.

(Not everyone's path, but definitely one that works for me.)
Cin

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RE: A Sacred Take on BDSM - 8/28/2005 3:44:34 PM

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quote:

I've found this to be fairly true for me. In bottoming, my soul seems to merge with that of master, and a sense of the sacred ensues.
I was wondering if any of you have experienced this as well? How has your particular religion or non-religion affected your choice to enter into this lifestyle, if at all?

Yes, I agree that spiritual elements can be experienced in what we do. Its a curious thing, and one that I am not done exploring. But it is separate from my religion (I am Catholic) and my religion has no bearing upon my kinky interests.

The sacred can be experienced in all aspects of life. I think it is possible to touch upon the sacred but not always, and not in a predictable way. Still, it is there and many people have experienced it and written about it as well.

(in reply to NakedOnMyChain)

RE: A Sacred Take on BDSM - 8/28/2005 4:16:41 PM

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quote:

Although I am an agnostic I see great potential in Zen Buddhism, and meditation...

Just a side note, as you know, the goal of Buddhism is to develop perfect compassion, perfect wisdom and enlightenment in order to attain Buddhahood. It was founded by Siddhartha Gutama Buddha, a philosopher and not a God in reaction to animism (the belief that everything in nature has its own spirit or divinity) and pantheism (the belief that only God exists and all that exists is God).

Zen Buddhism, not the Western variation, but the authentic Eastern variation is about the rigourous meditative practice towards this enlightenment. It is about detaching ourselves from our conscious states and thoughts which are at the very core of our suffering. Only then can we acheive the perfect means.

I would say that being a true Zen Buddist and an agnostic probably wouldn't work as Zen Buddists are quite devout to one quest. However, the integration of Zen Buddist ideology into our everyday lives can be a nice addition to agnoticism as it can be a way for searching for the answers, hoping to, via meditation, gain some insights on our existence.

I will say that when engaging in S&M and some other more cerebral BDSM practices, I do detach myself from my conscious state and thoughts. I do find a sense of freedom, like my soul is no longer caged in my body. I wonder what a Buddhist monk would think of this…

- LA

< Message edited by LadyAngelika -- 8/28/2005 4:18:31 PM >

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RE: A Sacred Take on BDSM - 8/28/2005 4:44:59 PM

Vancouver_cinful

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika
I will say that when engaging in S&M and some other more cerebral BDSM practices, I do detach myself from my conscious state and thoughts. I do find a sense of freedom, like my soul is no longer caged in my body. I wonder what a Buddhist monk would think of this…

- LA

I have had moments when the need to obey and keep obeying without giving in to twinges of discomfort or ego-state have resulted in a focus and dedication that would have to impress a monk... ::laughing::

All kidding aside, those moments are very transcendental for me...and far more satisfying than physical orgasms.

Oddly enough, I've never looked at this from a dominant view, though, and I would love to hear more on that aspect...

Cin

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RE: A Sacred Take on BDSM - 8/28/2005 5:30:01 PM

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quote:

Oddly enough, I've never looked at this from a dominant view, though, and I would love to hear more on that aspect...

Well I believe there is such a thing as Top or Dom/me space though it doesn't get talked about much. A thread I started on the subject over a year ago got little attention and going back and reading it made me year for topcat's & sinergy's posts! (I'd miss the others but they make appearances now and then) but I digress...

In this space, I have to focus all of my energy on my partner. This requires focus and dedication as well. Especially in S&M, I cannot let my mind wander to what it is that I want. I’d say the same applies to a humiliation scene or some kind of mind fuck scene like POW (yum!). In these settings, I cannot let my mind wander. I have to constantly be 3 steps ahead of the game, anticipating reactions and ready to execute my next move. I remember the first few times I topped, I found it so mentally draining that I had to sleep for about 12hours straight. Now I still find it draining to certain point, but a good draining like after playing intense sports or something. However now it takes a pretty intense scene to knock me out for 12 hours.

When in this top/domme space, I’m following my most basic sadistic carnal desires in my actions but keeping them in check with the rational and empathic mix required in such circumstances. So at this point, it is no longer about me, no longer about all the relatively insignificant things that I have to tend to in my life outside of this scene. It is about being in tune with the needs of my partner. The dedication comes from the desire to see their eyes light up with total euphoria. I can also say that my physical and mental state changes at this time. I feel lighter then air and yet completely grounded.

I want to add that I’ve experienced this as a bottom, but not as a submissive. The dedication comes not from a desire to obey but rather a desire to overcome, endure and bask in the endorphin rush.

I hope some of this makes sense to you.

- LA

_____________________________

Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

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RE: A Sacred Take on BDSM - 8/28/2005 6:03:30 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: NakedOnMyChain

I have a rather unique twist on reasons people enter the scene. Someone recently e-mailed me, having seen that I'm a practicing Wiccan, and presented an interesting side to why they became interested in BDSM. Being Wiccan himself, he found the lifestyle as a way to be more closely in touch with his spiritual side. He claimed, with some seeming validity, that in either bottoming or topping, the exchange of energy creates "sacred space" and brings you more closely in tune with the God and Goddess, Creator, Great Spirit, or whatever your choice phrase is. I've found this to be fairly true for me. In bottoming, my soul seems to merge with that of master, and a sense of the sacred ensues.
I was wondering if any of you have experienced this as well? How has your particular religion or non-religion affected your choice to enter into this lifestyle, if at all? Have you found that being in your particular headspace can bring on a sense of the sacred?
I'm not looking to offend atheists or agnostics, I simply thought that this man's viewpoint was truly unique and wanted to share it and hear other peoples' experiences with the topic. Thanks.

Updated due to an egregious spelling error. Oh dear, it appears I am human after all.

Prior to "finding" BDSM, I did 5 years of practical study of Oji-Cree spirituality, 5 years means I had learned enough to begin to understand how little I knew.

I walked away from it, I allowed the betrayal and dishonesty, the fraudulence of a teacher to make me turn away from the red road. I found BDSMtrained intensively for 6 months and jumped into the deep end, spending about 4 years 24/7 real time, I had spiritual experiences from time to time during that four years, but about 2 years ago, I decided I needed to return to the red road, I sought out teachers. When I scene, if I am properly prepared, the sub gets all of me. It becomes a melding of energies and a dance of spirit.

I also do theraputic touch, been doing it for about 20 years without knowing that was what it was, if led to, I do TT on my sub during scene. I have one playpartner who comes to me first for a TT session, then we go to a party.

It is not spiritual for everyone, I can only speak for myself and say BDSM can be extremely sacred. My path is the one I walk, it isn't the right path for anyone but me, what I love is walking alongside others and learning of their path so I can celebrate their journey as well as mine.

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RE: A Sacred Take on BDSM - 8/28/2005 7:45:49 PM

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Both my Domina and myself are very open intuitively, spiritually, and empathically.
MsN also does healings, we are very similar in how we think spritually; along the lines of Native American Spirituality...She is full blooded Italian, I am a mixture which includes French, French Candian and Blackfoot Native American.

I think we both most of the time are aware of the Great Spirit (which we prefer to invision as genderless). We try to be open at all times of the magic and lessons we are exposed to everyday.
And yes, our sexuality is a big piece of that. The more deeper we go and the closer we become it makes itself more apparent to us.
Especially after a intense loving, soul close session, we can feel and appreciate in spiritualness in our connection, sometimes to tears, because of the beauty.

To us our Spirituality is very important(and this is way removed from religion) in how we interact with each other and others outside of ourselves.
It brings a calm sense of wonderment and peace in our lives. It also expands the trust between us which has deepened and strenthened our D/s B-D relationship.

*Brightspot

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RE: A Sacred Take on BDSM - 8/28/2005 8:06:49 PM

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Most things I do have a spiritual imput. be it Wicca, Shamanic, Mage Work or just a sence of the Life Force. Some times there is tremendious pain, sometimes there is an almost overwhelming joy and at others there is a sence of absolute peace with the world ~ complete balance.

NakedOnMyChain and harmony, Merry Met and indeed Blessed Be. FFF

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RE: A Sacred Take on BDSM - 8/29/2005 11:17:51 AM

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Thank you all for your wonderful responses. I've had several in my e-mail as well, not wanting to subject their beliefs to ridicule in a public forum. I appreciate the honesty, insight, and perspective which you have shared. I love learning more about people and their motivations. Sincerely, thank you.

Merry Meet and Merry Part
and Merry Meet again,
Michelle

_____________________________

"Oh, it's torture, but I'm almost there."
~The Cure

"I ask for so little. Just fear me, love me, do as I say, and I will be your slave."
~The Labyrinth

(in reply to NakedOnMyChain)

RE: A Sacred Take on BDSM - 8/29/2005 2:53:14 PM

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A) I haven't seen any ridicule of beliefs in this thread or actually in any thread about personal spirituality.

B) Why would a person believe so strongly in what they do yet even an online forum would prevent them from expressing them?

Of course no one has to be public with their beliefs. I personally have not even half really expressed what my belief system is. But I do that on personal choice and simplicity, not because I'm afraid of what others feel.

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RE: A Sacred Take on BDSM - 8/29/2005 3:54:53 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

I would say that being a true Zen Buddist and an agnostic probably wouldn't work as Zen Buddists are quite devout to one quest. However, the integration of Zen Buddist ideology into our everyday lives can be a nice addition to agnoticism as it can be a way for searching for the answers, hoping to, via meditation, gain some insights on our existence.

- LA

Zen and agnosticism are pretty compatible. Buddhism in it's original form is not a religion in the usual western sense, as it does not embrace a belief in God, but rather a much more amorphous godhead whose nature is not defined. I think that most Buddhists, including Zen Buddhists, would have greater difficulty in doing BDSM with issues revolving around the conception of harm, passion and attachment. These, however, are complicated issues in Buddhism, and I know people who pursue BDSM through a Buddhist path, or vice versa. This seems to be easier to reconcile on the sub side than the dom side, however.

Cane

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RE: A Sacred Take on BDSM - 8/29/2005 7:55:03 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: CitizenCane

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

I would say that being a true Zen Buddist and an agnostic probably wouldn't work as Zen Buddists are quite devout to one quest. However, the integration of Zen Buddist ideology into our everyday lives can be a nice addition to agnoticism as it can be a way for searching for the answers, hoping to, via meditation, gain some insights on our existence.

- LA

Zen and agnosticism are pretty compatible. Buddhism in it's original form is not a religion in the usual western sense, as it does not embrace a belief in God, but rather a much more amorphous godhead whose nature is not defined. I think that most Buddhists, including Zen Buddhists, would have greater difficulty in doing BDSM with issues revolving around the conception of harm, passion and attachment. These, however, are complicated issues in Buddhism, and I know people who pursue BDSM through a Buddhist path, or vice versa. This seems to be easier to reconcile on the sub side than the dom side, however.

Cane

They kinda/sorta are, but they're different in one important respect. Agnosticism says you can't know the answers to transcendental questions because the human mind is limited. Zen seeks to explode those limits entirely so that the person has a direct experience of the transcendental.

I agree with the rest of your post, though. That's a very interesting point about the reconciliation w/Buddhism on the sub vs. dom side. I think you see it in other religious contexts too, not just Buddhism. I remember reading a book called "Masochism: a Jungian View", and you see all sorts of masochistic references in other world religions, and of course "Islam" literally means "submission". But you don't see the "top" side of things represented, or if it is, it doesn't show up in any kind of positive or affirming way. Except for in Nietzsche, maybe *laughs*

(in reply to CitizenCane)

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