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Condom's and STD's - 7/10/2004 9:13:01 AM

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I was talking to a member of my group today. About STD's. I remember reading here more than once that condoms are not totally secure. Well we all know that however. Something about some diseases being able to make it through the microscopic holes? I've been searching and cannot find the string.
Also, he brought up that those may be sheepskin condoms and not latex. I guess sheepskin had issues?

Does anyone know?

RE: Condom's and STD's - 7/10/2004 9:24:58 AM

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I don't know about diseases going through a condom, but i do know that HPV is transmitted from genital skin contact rather than fluid exchange, and is therefore not prevented with condoms.

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RE: Condom's and STD's - 7/10/2004 12:49:57 PM

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Latex condoms are impenetrable to both the HIV and Herpes virus. The lamb gut ones, being more porous, are not. If the Herpes lesion is on the penis, and covered, the virus will not be spread.

slut

< Message edited by KennelSlut -- 7/10/2004 12:55:24 PM >

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RE: Condom's and STD's - 7/10/2004 3:43:53 PM

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herpes can be spread even without any lesions being visible just from genital skin contact. I think its called shedding (I may be wrong as to what the correct name is, though I know its possible). A friend of mine contracted herpes that way. She only slept with one man ever (at that point), had protected sex and he didnt have any lesions or anything else visible.

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RE: Condom's and STD's - 7/10/2004 6:19:11 PM

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Mod One-

It's 'asymptomatic shedding', which is when when one is 'shedding' the virus without showing symptoms, ie, lesions.

I personally think it's a myth, but sometimes the lesions can be as small as a few tiny pimples, and might be missed.

Stay warm,
Lawrence

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RE: Condom's and STD's - 7/10/2004 6:48:36 PM

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Yes, the concept of asymptomatic shedding is controversial. Several studies of couples where one partner is infected, and the other not, and who don't use condoms, have shown a very low transmission rate when the couples are careful to avoid intercourse during the prodrome (time just befoer the lesions appear), and the active infection. This isn't to say asymptomatic shedding doesn't occur - but the current thinking is that it's much less common than originally suspected.

Either way - if the lesion is (or was) originally located on an area of the penis covered by a condom, the condom will be protective against transmission. Or - if the infected individual is a female and the lesions (or area the lesions originally appeared - say, the cervix), are accessed by a condom covered penis - no transmission will occur.

slut

(in reply to topcat)

RE: Condom's and STD's - 7/11/2004 12:35:25 AM

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CONDOMS DO NOT PROTECT YOU FROM HERPES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! PERIOD!!!

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RE: Condom's and STD's - 7/11/2004 6:31:05 AM

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Hmmm.. what qualifications do you have propertyof?

Can you cite the source of your information?

Do you know anything about the pathophysiology of herpes? It's latent and active phase?

I'll be happy to provide several references which state they do, indeed protect from herpes - provided the circumstances above are as I stated.

Give me a bit to get the info..

slut

(in reply to propertyof)

RE: Condom's and STD's - 7/11/2004 6:53:44 AM

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ok...

From the Center Of Disease Control:

<<Correct and consistent use of latex condoms can reduce the risk of genital herpes only when the infected area or site of potential exposure is protected. Since a condom may not cover all infected areas, even correct and consistent use of latex condoms cannot guarantee protection from genital herpes.>>

(emphasis mine)

From the UC Davis Health System:

<<
"The use of latex condoms will reduce transmission of HSV-2 but does not constitute complete protection unless it covers the entire infected area. Even then, a small tear could permit passage of the virus. Condoms made from animal membrane are to be avoided; although they prevent pregnancy, the herpes virus can pass through them.">>

again - emphasis mine - and we all realize small tears compromise the protection capability of the condom.

From MerckSource:

<<"Condoms remain the best protection against acquiring genital herpes when sexually active. CORRECT and CONSISTENT use of a condom will help prevent the transmission of the disease.

The use of LATEX condoms is mandatory -- animal membrane condoms should be avoided, since the virus can penetrate them. The female condom has been tested and shown to successfully reduce transmission risk as well.">>

Do I need to emphasize again? The "reduce risk" qualifier reflects the fact that condoms may not cover the infected area- not that they are inherently ineffective against HSV.

These are layman oriented references which I thought would be more appropriate for this forum. I'd be happy to refer you to some Medical Journal sources should you like to do more reading.

slut

< Message edited by KennelSlut -- 7/11/2004 4:58:31 PM >

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RE: Condom's and STD's - 7/11/2004 7:05:40 AM

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I have not read the whole thread, sorry if I me too somebody.

On Friends Ross gets Rachael pregnant despite using a condom. They have an episode about the warning that condoms are not 100% effective in stopping pregnancy.

A virus is much smaller than a sperm cell. A hole that would stop a sperm because it is too small may not stop a virus.

The only way to be sure is if we kill all the infected.

(Wait, that may be a tad drastic.

)

For the many with no sense of humor, the "

" might mean something sometimes.

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RE: Condom's and STD's - 7/11/2004 7:16:07 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: iwillserveu

On Friends Ross gets Rachael pregnant despite using a condom. They have an episode about the warning that condoms are not 100% effective in stopping pregnancy.

A virus is much smaller than a sperm cell. A hole that would stop a sperm because it is too small may not stop a virus.

The only way to be sure is if we kill all the infected. (Wait, that may be a tad drastic.)

For the many with no sense of humor, the "" might mean something sometimes.

Nothing is 100%. A defective condom - is a defective condom, and will not prevent pregnancy or disease.

An intact condom, used properly will not allow the passage of a sperm cell, HSV or HPV. No matter what "Friends" tells you. : )

slut

< Message edited by KennelSlut -- 7/11/2004 9:51:31 AM >

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RE: Condom's and STD's - 7/11/2004 10:59:50 AM

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My 19 year old son was concieved even though I wore a condom. Amazing you say? Not really. He was 18 last year.

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RE: Condom's and STD's - 7/11/2004 12:19:05 PM

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If he was conceived - either:

1 - you weren't using the condom correctly

2 - your ejaculate or pre ejaculate (which can carry some sperm) was somehow transmitted to the vagina ie by your fingers

3 - There was a defect in the condom when you removed it from the package, or it was torn during intercourse.

The sperm did not penetrate the condom. Viruses will not penetrate the condom. Millions of latex gloves are used in hospitals every day and prevent the transmission of bacteria and viruses when used appropriately - and the potential exposure in handling contaminated fluids in this environment is far greater than during the sexual act.

So while nothing will guarantee not contracting an STD OR getting pregnant 100% of the time - (except abstinence), condoms, male or female, used correctly, are the next best thing.

slut who, btw, is a physician

< Message edited by KennelSlut -- 7/11/2004 12:20:37 PM >

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RE: Condom's and STD's - 7/11/2004 1:01:52 PM

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In this case, I am very happy the condom failed.

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RE: Condom's and STD's - 7/11/2004 5:38:39 PM

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yes, i think many of us are in similar positions

slut

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RE: Condom's and STD's - 8/17/2004 6:27:53 AM

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With all of the very serious diseases that we face, a condom is the very least that we can do. The options are ...abstinence..but I doubt very much that appeals to many of us here *s*.

A very real frustration is being one of the growing number of people that are latex sensitive. The use of a condom though most definately is necessary, also leaves me with very sore and irritated for several days after use. The only option that I am aware of are the lambskin condoms which are fine in a monogamous relationship, but don't offer much if any protection from diseases, that I know of.

I am curious while on the thought, if there are many others here that face that same situation, and if so, how you handle it.

Respectfully,

morgan

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RE: Condom's and STD's - 8/19/2004 4:15:20 PM

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I want to disagree with the assertion that a condom can stop transmission of HPV or HSV-2. Various studies have shown effectiveness to be as low as 60%, since infections may not be covered by the condom, and because viruses like those get around *awfully* easily. People have gotten HPV from a handshake, I kid you not, it's been documented. Did he scrub his hands with a microbicide before putting the condom on? I thought not. Yes, a condom is *absolutely* better than nothing for these viruses, but that still leaves a lot to be desired.

If you are latex sensitive, you can use polyurethane condoms. Be forewarned that they are a few times more likely to fail than a latex one.

If worrying about the possibility condom failure messes up your fun, or if you just feel like playing as safely as you can (including reducing risk of acquiring HSV or new HPV strains), know that there are some things that you can do...

Washing! Sodium lauryl sulphate (AKA sodium dodecyl sulphate) is a detergent/surfactant which kills most viruses (including HIV) very quickly, probably by damaging/dissolving part of their envelope. It is easily obtained at any supermarket -- just read the ingredients of shampoos, especially the cheaper ones. It is not safe for internal use, since (like another surfactant, nonoxynol-9) it is irritant to mucous membranes. Other products which might be useful are benzalkonium chloride (found in antibacterial wipes, available in your local market's baby section), which kills many viruses as well as bacteria, and possibly your regular antibacterial soaps containing triclosan -- this is NOT effective at killing viruses, but will kill most gram-positive bacteria, and it continues to protect for a few hours after application. Any of these agents should be left on at full strength for a bare minimum of 30 seconds to be effective. Getting your prospective partner clean and free of surface cooties before play can only be a good thing. Ditto for getting yourself cleaned up afterwards. Just remember, none of these agents should be used on mucous membranes, they're just not suited.

There are, however, some good things out there which MAY be used on mucous membranes. There are currently a number of substances in clinical trials (mostly phase 3) for use as HIV prevention tools either when a condom is unavailable or cannot be used, or to give a second layer of protection. Most of these use either acidity or a microscopic barrier to kill or immobilize sperm, bacteria and viruses. One of the most promising, BufferGel, is around PH 4, which is acid enough to incapacitate or kill HIV and to cause sperm to explode. BufferGel was also shown in phase 2 trials to be useful at preventing transmission of chlamydia, gonorrhea, HSV-2, syphilis, trichomoniasis, and bacterial vaginosis agents. Unfortunately, it will be years before BufferGel is commercially available, but an Australian researcher is working with a rough equivalent which may be close to as effective and is cheap and readily available -- lemon juice. He is conducting trials in which a few drops of lemon juice are added to a half a teaspoon or so of water -- around a 15% solution -- and soaked up with a sponge or cotton ball which is then inserted into the vagina before sex. He also recommends that uncircumcised men clean the inside of their foreskins with undiluted or slightly diluted lemon juice after potentially unsafe sex. Another approach to the broken condom issue is Carraguard, now in phase 3 trials in Africa. It is a 3% solution of iota carrageenan, an extract of red seaweed which makes a gel used in lots of products, like cosmetics, chocolate milk and ice cream. What makes iota carrageenan special is that it forms a self-repairing coating, even on a cellular level. While it may or may not be effective as a contraceptive, it does help to prevent transmission of HIV, HPV, HSV-2, gonorrhea, syphilis, chlamydia, and trichomoniasis. Like BufferGel, Carraguard will not be on the market for some years. You *can*, however, buy 100 grams of iota carrageenan powder for $20, and with the help of a gram scale, make your own. 100 mg of powder and 3.2 grams of sterile water will do the trick, so 100 grams = 1000 doses. Three years of protection is a lot of peace of mind for $20, if you ask me. Makes a good lube, too. Mail me if you want ordering details. Note: nobody is expecting any of these products to be 100% effective, so I do NOT recommend using any of them to replace condoms or other common sense safety measures, only as *additional* protection! Note also that I am in no way associated with any business providing any of these products, nor do I even know anyone who is.

< Message edited by NoCalOwner -- 8/20/2004 12:48:44 PM >

(in reply to wyldhearted)

RE: Condom's and STD's - 8/19/2004 5:11:16 PM

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quote:

Washing! Sodium Lauryl Sulphate is a detergent/surfactant which kills most viruses (including HIV) very quickly, probably by damaging/dissolving part of their envelope.

Are you saying that if a male has sex with a female infected with HPV, he can clean himself thoroughly with this product afterwards and probably not contract it?

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proudsub

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"You are entitled to your own opinions but not your own facts"--Alan Greenspan

(in reply to NoCalOwner)

RE: Condom's and STD's - 8/20/2004 10:25:16 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: proudsub

quote:

Washing! Sodium Lauryl Sulphate is a detergent/surfactant which kills most viruses (including HIV) very quickly, probably by damaging/dissolving part of their envelope.

Are you saying that if a male has sex with a female infected with HPV, he can clean himself thoroughly with this product afterwards and probably not contract it?

Disclaimer: I am not an MD or a microbiologist, everything I say on this topic should be considered the opinion of a well-meaning amateur.

I would hesitate to say "probably," since that would mean that this approach was over 50% effective, and, as with most aspects of medicine which are unpatentable or otherwise hold no promise of Big Bucks, there is little chance that anyone will conduct formal trials to determine how effective it actually is.

That said, I would be entirely comfortable with saying that it should very significantly reduce the risk. For the skeptical, consider that on hundreds of sites out there, you will find the recommendation that men wash up and urinate after possibly unsafe sex. Here (http://www.manilatimes.net/national/2004/mar/08/yehey/life/20040308lif1.html), for example:
"Urinate after sex and wash the penis thoroughly as a preventative against developing infection."

All I'm adding to this is the suggestion that using cleaning agents which have proven antimicrobial traits (and no known drawbacks when used externally) can only be a good thing. I see that Kleenex has just come out with antiviral tissues, which they claim kill 99.9% of cold and flu viruses within 15 minutes, and that the active ingredients are citric acid (lemon juice!) and sodium lauryl sulphate.
(http://news.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2004/07/25/nhanky25.xml&sSheet=/news/2004/07/25/ixhome.html)
More directly to the point:
"SLS (Sodium Lauryl Sulphate) Clinically proven to kill the viruses that cause Herpes, HPV, HIV and Chlamidia. Clinically proven to prevent the transmission of the Herpes Virus, and strongly suspected to prevent or lessen the risk of transmission of other STDs including HIV, HPV, and chlamidia."
(http://freedomantiviral.addr.com/prefix_research.htm)

So I would think that having a guy (1) pee, (2) wash with something which kills cooties, and (3) use some lemon juice (if he is uncut), would be a really great idea after non-risk-free sex. If his partner had reason to believe that he/she might have a viral infection which could get around a condom, then I would hope that the partner would wash their hands and any external site of infection before they have sex.

What we use is a mixture of about 75% triclosan-based liquid antibacterial soap and 25% SLS-based shampoo (VO5 to be exact, which is almost entirely water and SLS). That way we kill both viruses and many bacteria (which might cause infections and let other pathogens through). Cost us a total of $3 and a trip to the supermarket.

I've also found that, as a practical matter, a guy will in no way resist being dragged into the shower to have an attractive person run soapy hands over his genital region. If no running water is available, there are always the benzalkonium chloride based wipes. Not nearly as fun, but life can be hard for fans of outdoor sex.

< Message edited by NoCalOwner -- 8/20/2004 12:55:36 PM >

(in reply to proudsub)

RE: Condom's and STD's - 8/20/2004 2:35:42 PM

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Thanks for all the information.

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"You are entitled to your own opinions but not your own facts"--Alan Greenspan

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