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RE: My First Experience with U.S.C. 2257 - How is it affecting you?


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RE: My First Experience with U.S.C. 2257 - How is it af... - 10/13/2005 12:16:05 PM   
JustaTop


Posts: 511
Joined: 10/5/2005
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It will if you are merely a partner to a company that's based in mexico. I'm afraid the law won't have a lot to say about anything that happens beyond it's borders.

After all,will it cover a US citizen appearing in a foreign country? The law merely states that companies accountable to the us government must document age. If it's not a us company,they can't do squat. The current republican regime is really keen on "oustsourcing" why should this industry be any different? Why not simply turn the tables? It's not as if other americans,in partnerships with foreign interests, aren't making huge profits off of foreign labor,is it? (which is not to say that I encourage using anyone underage,or without proper consent..You still obey the law of the land,in that regard.)

Even more so,there is nothing in the law that states the a foreign based company that SHOOTS in the us has to keep records on file. They left it purposely vague,and that can be worked against them. So a PARTNER to a foreign firm that does business here-but exports the result-is still not held accountable to this law,is it?

For the partner is not the owner of a us based business,only someone with an interest in one based elsewhere. They can't touch a business across thier border.

There's always more than one way to skin a cat.

< Message edited by JustaTop -- 10/13/2005 12:39:03 PM >

(in reply to Leonidas)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: My First Experience with U.S.C. 2257 - How is it af... - 10/13/2005 12:50:46 PM   
JohnWarren


Posts: 3807
Joined: 3/18/2005
From: Delray Beach, FL
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: JustaTop

Nods,if they can actually prove that the photos were shot in the us.

Or live near the borders,and do your shoots and have the offices and companies in mexico, or canada. If there were issues with immigration etc...get yourself a local partner as a liason.(I'd really enjoy watching the feds to try get search warrants in THOSE locales )


The burden of proof would be on a prosecutor,to PROVE where they were taken. And a particular set would look the same anywhere.


Sadly, while he's trying to prove it you'll be bankrupted by legal and travel costs. They don't have to win... they just have to hurt you enough.

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(in reply to JustaTop)
Profile   Post #: 42
RE: My First Experience with U.S.C. 2257 - How is it af... - 10/13/2005 12:55:04 PM   
JustaTop


Posts: 511
Joined: 10/5/2005
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They cannot take you to court if you aren't a us business John.

The law says nothing about subsidiaries to foreign firms..they CANNOT sue a company NOT based in the us. Which means they can't get at your cash-end of game. There is no legal reason to file suit to begin with.

And this is one of the main differences in attitude I have,over most people here.

I am PROactive,rather than REactive. Yall want to whine about a problem-I want to solve it. Which one of the two attitudes do you suppose gets the better end result?

< Message edited by JustaTop -- 10/13/2005 1:01:45 PM >

(in reply to JohnWarren)
Profile   Post #: 43
RE: My First Experience with U.S.C. 2257 - How is it af... - 10/13/2005 2:27:15 PM   
JohnWarren


Posts: 3807
Joined: 3/18/2005
From: Delray Beach, FL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: JustaTop

They cannot take you to court if you aren't a us business John.

The law says nothing about subsidiaries to foreign firms..they CANNOT sue a company NOT based in the us. Which means they can't get at your cash-end of game. There is no legal reason to file suit to begin with.

And this is one of the main differences in attitude I have,over most people here.

I am PROactive,rather than REactive. Yall want to whine about a problem-I want to solve it. Which one of the two attitudes do you suppose gets the better end result?


Sadly a lot of us have been dealing with restrictive laws for a long time. My Diversified Services was on the web for more than a decade before I decided to retire and I've had projects attacked by various branches of the government.

The funny thing is the ones who make the most noise about "you should do this" haven't put either their money, their good name or their asses on the line.

Wanna find out if your system can work? Set up a for profit website featuring naked people being tortured and see what happens. Or you can do what my friend Barbara Nitke is doing and directly sue the government. Talk is cheap.

Of course you could take the money all this would cost you and donate it to NCSF. They are actually out there.

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Profile   Post #: 44
RE: My First Experience with U.S.C. 2257 - How is it af... - 10/13/2005 3:01:23 PM   
LadyTantalize


Posts: 242
Joined: 4/13/2004
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Mr. Warren,

Thanks for being a solid voice of reason in a time of chaos!



And to JustaTop...... why should I, as an American, take my business to foriegn soil if I do not want to? Why should I be forced to do so? Why should I be mandated what I can or cannot view in the privacy of my own home? Next they will be burning books! Many "faith-based" initiatives that stand directly behind the current administration currently have stealth operations to purchase ALL TYPES of adult materials, erotic literature and any other written or artwork deemed "obscene" and rid America of such --- writers like Tennessee Williams and Sylvia Plath are included - are their works "obscene"? Attempts to not only rid America of what they deem "obscene" but to obilterate our erotic history as well. (Ahhh, love the Leather Archives - donate to them too!!) Is this ok? And to VOICE against such dictatorship also deemed "whining"? I would much prefer to FIGHT and use my VOICE (what you are referring to as whining) to stand up and fight for my rights in my own country. Granted I know various folks who have fled to offshore and foriegn domains and that is their right - but so is it my right to speak up against injustices in my own country. Your stance seems to ring of past decades when it was heard "America, love it or leave it". I prefer to VOICE my opinions that America was founded on the freedom of speech and the separation of church and state. I preferred to remove all pics possibly deemed "obscene" by the porn squad and hunker down for a good old fight against the right!

Grrrrrrrr! Sorry to rant but the whole issue gets my goat! Next the right-wing will have us all labeled with a scarlett letter and removed to some "offshore" penal colony!

Anyway, a good day to all!!

Truly,

Lady T.


Lady Tatiana Tantalize
Atlanta's Sadistic Southern Belle
http://www.ladytantalize.net

"A prayer for the wild at heart, kept in cages."
-Tennessee Williams-



_____________________________

Truly, Lady T.

Lady Tatiana Tantalize
Atlanta's Sadistic Southern Belle, Crossdressing Consultant, Punk-Rock Party Girl and Wicked SugarPuss
http://www.ladytantalize.net

"A prayer for the wild at heart, kept in cages."
-Tennessee William

(in reply to JohnWarren)
Profile   Post #: 45
RE: My First Experience with U.S.C. 2257 - How is it af... - 10/13/2005 3:29:04 PM   
JohnWarren


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From: Delray Beach, FL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyTantalize

Mr. Warren,

Thanks for being a solid voice of reason in a time of chaos!


Thank you... it can get lonely

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(in reply to LadyTantalize)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: My First Experience with U.S.C. 2257 - How is it af... - 10/13/2005 4:00:31 PM   
mantis65


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i found this ......

Buried clause could tag films, TV shows as porn

The provision, written by Rep. Mike Pence, R-Ind., could have ramifications beyond simply requiring someone to ensure that the names and ages of actors who partake in pretend lovemaking as compliance with Section 2257 in effect defines a movie or TV show as a pornographic work under federal law. Industry sources say the provision was included in the bill at the behest of the Justice Department. Calls to Pence's office and the Justice Department went unreturned Tuesday.

Industry officials contend that the way the provision is written, a sex scene could trigger the provision even if the actors were clothed. While the language is designed to capture "lascivious exhibition of the genitals," other legal decisions have said that "lascivious exhibition" could occur when the genitals are covered.

The bill, with the Section 2257 provision included, already has been approved by the U.S. House of Representatives and is waiting consideration by the Senate Judiciary Committee.

Industry executives worry that the provision, which is retroactive to 1995, will have a chilling effect on filmmakers. Faced with the choice of filing a 2257 certificate or editing out a scene, a filmmaker might decide it's not worth getting entangled with the federal government and let the scene fall to the cutting-room floor, the executives said


http://today.reuters.com/news/newsArticle.aspx?type=filmNews&storyID=2005-10-12T071801Z_01_ROB225980_RTRIDST_0_FILM-PORN-DC.XML

(in reply to JohnWarren)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: My First Experience with U.S.C. 2257 - How is it af... - 10/13/2005 5:57:30 PM   
JustaTop


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These things tend to run in cycles-we will have to see what happens when the right wing loses influence. Let me put it this way-if the bastards won't let you go through them,go around instead. Would you rather keep operating a business through all of this,gathering clientele the whole time-taking ADVANTAGE of the current supression-or screw with a battle you cannot possibly win, until the climate changes?

I dislike the whole right wing agenda,it bites. Wouldn't actually WINNING and stying up on the net until we CAN do something effective be a better solution? One of the BEST ways to defeat laws is to use other methods to defeat the intent of those laws. If the bastards cannot point to the law being effective in shutting down the "undesireable pono",it's much more likely to lose the support of the base that wanted it implimented to begin with.

Again,you people are just whining "you can't!!!!!" Instead of figuring out the most EXPEDIENT way to defeat this idiocy!

(in reply to LadyTantalize)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: My First Experience with U.S.C. 2257 - How is it af... - 10/14/2005 1:49:10 PM   
Leonidas


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Joined: 2/16/2004
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quote:

Again,you people are just whining "you can't!!!!!" Instead of figuring out the most EXPEDIENT way to defeat this idiocy!


I think that some people who have a stake in it are trying, Justatop, but that isn't me (I'm not a pornographer). I don't think that John or I were being neighsayers, we're just pointing out what we know from having gone similar rounds with governmental agencies that didn't like what we were doing in the past. If you think you've got a way to beat it, and you're so inclined, do give it a shot, and let us know how it goes.

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Take care of yourself

Leonidas

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Profile   Post #: 49
RE: My First Experience with U.S.C. 2257 - How is it af... - 10/14/2005 2:43:22 PM   
JohnWarren


Posts: 3807
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From: Delray Beach, FL
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Leonidas

quote:

Again,you people are just whining "you can't!!!!!" Instead of figuring out the most EXPEDIENT way to defeat this idiocy!


I think that some people who have a stake in it are trying, Justatop, but that isn't me (I'm not a pornographer). I don't think that John or I were being neighsayers, we're just pointing out what we know from having gone similar rounds with governmental agencies that didn't like what we were doing in the past. If you think you've got a way to beat it, and you're so inclined, do give it a shot, and let us know how it goes.


Yup, that's exactly how I feel. I support with my dollars and occasionaly in other ways groups like NCSF (Libby was a board member for a while) and ACLU.

It's does get annoying occasionally to have someone yelling "fight, fight, fight" from the nickle seats when one has been in the ring and bleeding.

My recommendation for those who think I'm not doing enough has been and continues to be: get a website, put up some pictures and then do what Barbara did, sue the AG or wave a big flag and get arrested.


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(in reply to Leonidas)
Profile   Post #: 50
RE: My First Experience with U.S.C. 2257 - How is it af... - 10/14/2005 3:17:23 PM   
JustaTop


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You guys are both missing the point. I never said "fight" the feds.

I'm just exploring if there is a realistic way to DODGE them,that they can't do anything about.

(in reply to JohnWarren)
Profile   Post #: 51
RE: My First Experience with U.S.C. 2257 - How is it af... - 10/15/2005 3:35:04 PM   
ShadeDiva


Posts: 1005
Joined: 3/31/2004
From: Sacramento, California
Status: offline
There isn't.

If you own the business and you live in the US it will affect you. Changing servers won't help you in the least.

This is far-reaching and it's not just a matter of getting Bush out of office. Once he is gone, if he and the Republicans pushing for it don't manage to get the 22nd ammendment repealed, which BTW has been started in two different bills set forth in February 2005, we will STILL have to deal with the imbalance in the House of Representives, and the judges that are being put in place to ensure this type of stuff survives the presidency, and the like.

They will far outlast the current president and we have more to fear from them than him, that is unless they are successful in repealing the 22nd ammendment or Bush declares martial law.

Art is already under attack. It's been under attack since Ashcroft declared the war on porn. We just were hoping now that he's gone his little mission would be gone with him. Obviously it isn't. He freaking draped the Lady Justice statue because her bare breasts were indecent for crying out loud. He opposed and was backed in stating that art, like the statue of David, was obscene.

The human naked body - made in the image of the Lord as the Christian faith goes is somehow obscene. But murder is okay. You can see folks chopped up in gruesome detail (not that I'm complaining, as I'm a gore fan lol) and that makes it to regular tv but two people enjoying each other where no one gets hurt is obscene. At least Do Not Kill is a commandent. I can't remember any commandent that said, nakedness is a sin, or having sex is a sin. Unless those were on the ones Moses broke lol.

In regard to it being a good law to stop child pornography, I ask you this:

HOW?

They are ALREADY breaking laws. They ALREADY don;t care. They ALREADY thumb their noses and do it anyway, creating laws isn't going to STOP them, the existing laws don't stop them so what good will more laws do?

The people THIS law targets don't DO child pornography and find it just as appalling as everyone else. We aren't creating it, condoning it, supporting it, or helping it. In reagrd to children seeing the porn well make a freaking law that says PARENTS can be arrested for NOT using the kiddie filters that most adult webmasters are responsible enough to register the kiddie filters to not let children see their site?

They are using the stop child pornography as a smoke screen because people have knee jerk reactions to it. It's easy to cast opposing voices as those that don't "care about our children" or as of of those evil child pornographer supporters to further ostrasize and divide any naysayers. This is NOT about protecting our children. This is about them saying we don't like what you are creating and we don't want anyone else to see it so you are going to jail.

Which isn't very democratic, patriotic, or about freedom. That's a dictatorship run by a corporation called the American government - IF it continues unabated.

Voicing our displeasure and discussing it and sharing information may one day be taken from us as well. What happens when they decide community websites like mine and sites like this one are obscene and lead to deviancy and the corruption of society and minors? It's a very real possiblity. And it's scary. They go THAT route, that kills off yahoo, chat rooms, IMs, and sites where we can gather and support each other. Divide and conquer. What happens if emailing someone about BDSM is a crime? They already read our emails and our chats and our forums undr the Patriot Act. They can film us in our homes, seize and imprision us as long as they want without a shred of evidence and withhold you from getting legal counsel as long as they like due to the Patriot Act.

It's scary. And it's not very freedom orientated. And yes, I AM aware that by saying this I'm making myself a target. But it is true.

And if that doesn't bother you, and make you add everything thats going on in our legislation together and be nervous about what they are going to do next, you should be. Right now they could plant whatever evidence they wanted - create any damning evidence and then lock you up, throw away the key, and use you as an example to scare other people. Who will save you from the government if they want you to go down? So yeah, we that have sites are running a little scared. And lots of us are nervous. They aren't going after the child pornographers - they are going after US, and since we aren't breaking laws, they are CREATING laws to MAKE us law breakers.

I hope they don't succeed but the mere fact that they are just *trying* scares me silly. If there was currently a balance of power I wouldn't be so worried, but there's a severe imbalance, and it's showing.

Okay I'm depressed again. Wah. *sigh*

_____________________________

~ShadeDiva
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(in reply to JustaTop)
Profile   Post #: 52
RE: My First Experience with U.S.C. 2257 - How is it af... - 10/16/2005 3:39:29 PM   
mantis65


Posts: 456
Joined: 12/27/2004
Status: offline
quote:

For the partner is not the owner of a us based business,only someone with an interest in one based elsewhere. They can't touch a business across thier border.


In September, when news reports of the site began to surface, Wilson insisted that because the site actually is hosted in Amsterdam, he was not violating any laws in Polk County.

"Nice try," Brad Copley, a prosecutor with the State Attorney's Office, who specializes in obscenity and sex crime cases, said Friday night. "He's in charge of the Web site. He lives here. He's operating from his house. It doesn't matter where his server is."


http://www.theledger.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20051008/NEWS/510080427/0/FRONTPAGE

(in reply to JustaTop)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: My First Experience with U.S.C. 2257 - How is it af... - 10/23/2005 5:19:37 PM   
ApociaKaoi


Posts: 15
Joined: 5/2/2005
Status: offline
I think it may help if a list of things that can be done was compiled showing many things that people can do to help. I know that alot of reasons have been stated already, but alot of people are afraid to be targeted by any high-up, and/or the impact in may have on their family.

Sorry, but who knows it may help ^_^


Now to my question. I'm a student who is struggling with highschool classes, extra correspondance classes, and a seemingly-futile struggle to be accepted into my dream school. Needless to say...I'm broke. Due to relations I can not send money to become a member of the NCSF for another few months, nor can I do much donating. I've printed out alot of flyers and placed them around my city, however.
My question is, given the circumstances, is there anything else that I can do?

< Message edited by ApociaKaoi -- 10/23/2005 6:50:34 PM >

(in reply to JustaTop)
Profile   Post #: 54
RE: My First Experience with U.S.C. 2257 - How is it af... - 10/24/2005 11:27:25 AM   
addcted2it


Posts: 78
Joined: 10/28/2004
From: Sonoma County, California, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MadameDahlia


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ojedieu

Bush is an idiot, who struts and frets his hour upon our nation and then (hopefully) is heard no more.
Please invade us and rid us of this nutjob!


Ojedieu,

Yes, and while I agree with you about Geo. W. Bush being and idiot, by the time this "lame duck" will be out of office, the damage will already have been done (note the recent addition(s) to the Supreme Court, the Patriot Act, et al). Obviously, Bush has his own ajenda, which is to pander to the Evangellical Christian right-wing element of our society. After all, they are a powerful voting block.

And then there is also the question of the Bush legacy. Legacy, sheesh!!!

So, even if we manage to elect a Democrat into office, he or she will likely be a moderate Democrat, and someone who is going to have to deal with the issue of winding down the occupation of Iraq (AKA Vietnam II). Lyndon Johnson had to deal with it and it literally destroyed him.

Wandering aimlessly...

-Phil

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Profile   Post #: 55
RE: My First Experience with U.S.C. 2257 - How is it af... - 10/25/2005 10:42:39 PM   
JustaTop


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Joined: 10/5/2005
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It seems a safe bet that the next elected president is going to be a Dem. People are not terribly happy with the republicans after the disaster fuax pas. I feel sorry for the mess that person will go through as well.

(in reply to addcted2it)
Profile   Post #: 56
RE: My First Experience with U.S.C. 2257 - How is it af... - 10/26/2005 1:18:04 AM   
frenchpet


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Joined: 8/19/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: JustaTop

It seems a safe bet that the next elected president is going to be a Dem. People are not terribly happy with the republicans after the disaster faux pas. I feel sorry for the mess that person will go through as well.

Er... Is there any dem that has the slightest chance to be elected ? Who ? Certainly not Hillary Clinton... Barack Obama ???

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Profile   Post #: 57
RE: My First Experience with U.S.C. 2257 - How is it af... - 10/26/2005 1:31:09 PM   
JustaTop


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They have three years to come up with someone.

Let's hope it's not as lame and misdirected as the last one.

(in reply to frenchpet)
Profile   Post #: 58
RE: My First Experience with U.S.C. 2257 - How is it af... - 10/30/2005 10:03:52 PM   
jro2020


Posts: 160
Joined: 10/23/2005
From: Idaho
Status: offline
I am correct in interperating this as saying only if you distribute or intend to distribute and porn you have to have proof the person is of age, and any aliases they may be using. I mean that's pretty standard stuff anyway if you don't want to accidentally get busted for child porn.

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Profile   Post #: 59
RE: My First Experience with U.S.C. 2257 - How is it af... - 10/31/2005 3:32:14 AM   
frenchpet


Posts: 587
Joined: 8/19/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: JustaTop

They have three years to come up with someone.

Let's hope it's not as lame and misdirected as the last one.
Well yes, I hope so, or I won't vote (again). But if they choose Barack Obama (I don't see a better choice so far) they can count on my vote and on the votes of many other "exiled" Americans. The only problem is that I'm pretty sure there are still several million people who wouldn't vote for him simply because he produces too much eumelanin. I'd love to be proven wrong.

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