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RE: My First Experience with U.S.C. 2257 - How is it affecting you?


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RE: My First Experience with U.S.C. 2257 - How is it af... - 9/27/2005 2:53:22 PM   
pastplayingames


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first post was a failure...got it on the second try <g>



< Message edited by pastplayingames -- 9/27/2005 2:57:31 PM >

(in reply to Behest)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: My First Experience with U.S.C. 2257 - How is it af... - 9/27/2005 2:55:42 PM   
pastplayingames


Posts: 50
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Behest


#1 Every law spoke of in this thread can and is actually superseded by the Constitution. There are probably hundreds of laws on the books, that if taken to the supreme court to be argued, would probably be overturned.





Problem is, which will ever make it to the Supreme Court to be reviewed and possibly overturned is dependent on the Supreme Court "accepting" them for review. Personally, I am scared to death of the pending imbalance the current administration hopes to instill in such a powerful arena as the Supreme Court that will affect our lives for decades to come.

And if this particular law (U.S.C. 2257) doesn't cause people to step back and think, "Wait a minute, why such broad strokes and what about the implications of such?", then perhaps this case will........
http://www.ncsfreedom.org/news/2005/082205SupremeCourtAppealCDA.htm
(Barbara Nitke vs. John Ashcroft)

EVERY politician and political maneuver has an agenda hidden under the layer of 'acceptability to the masses'. We should all be asking ourselves what the motivation is and why.

*my two cents*
~Christine



< Message edited by pastplayingames -- 9/27/2005 3:08:28 PM >

(in reply to pastplayingames)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: My First Experience with U.S.C. 2257 - How is it af... - 9/27/2005 5:41:14 PM   
mantis65


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Joined: 12/27/2004
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thanks for that link

quote:

"NCSF is concerned about this ruling because the court agrees that websites that deal with alternative sexuality are at risk of prosecution," says Susan Wright, NCSF Spokesperson. "Websites and chat groups that include discussions and images of SM, swinging and polyamory, and membership groups that maintain educational websites about adult sexuality are at risk."


Sites like this one would be effected by the law in that article. Its not just Porn they are after its any form of speech they don’t like

(in reply to pastplayingames)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: My First Experience with U.S.C. 2257 - How is it af... - 9/27/2005 8:00:07 PM   
boy2006


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Joined: 7/28/2005
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I have a naive question that some of you may find funny. Does the new law apply to the watchers as well? I mean if I go out there and subscribe to a website that clearly discloses that all models are consenting and over 18, can I get in trouble? WHat if the website is BDSM related?

Also if the answer to above is yes, then does the law apply retroactively or prospectively? If I stop watching porn now on the net, am I home free?

(in reply to Faramir)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: My First Experience with U.S.C. 2257 - How is it af... - 9/27/2005 11:41:40 PM   
JohnWarren


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From: Delray Beach, FL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: boy2006

I have a naive question that some of you may find funny. Does the new law apply to the watchers as well? I mean if I go out there and subscribe to a website that clearly discloses that all models are consenting and over 18, can I get in trouble? WHat if the website is BDSM related?

Also if the answer to above is yes, then does the law apply retroactively or prospectively? If I stop watching porn now on the net, am I home free?


No, the current law has not such effect. However, should it be applied, it's very likely that much of what you want to visit will disappear.

There is an illusion out there that people who run commercial BDSM websites reap huge rewards. There may be some, but in operating Diversified Services for over 10 years until my retirement, I never met any of them. Most range from "doing it for the love of it" to a lower-middle-class income. Just the threat of such a law will make many simply fold their tents because they couldn't even afford to win such a case.

Remember the law allows prosecution in any venue where the site is available. This could mean that I, for example, if I were still in business, could be forced to make repeated trips to the West Coast just to make the court appearances. This doesn't include the cost of hiring a lawyer.


_____________________________

www.lovingdominant.org

(in reply to boy2006)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: My First Experience with U.S.C. 2257 - How is it af... - 9/29/2005 2:29:12 AM   
Behest


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Joined: 9/18/2005
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I still don't understand what the main objection to the law is.

In a nutshell I see the law as meaning "If you make pornographic material to be sold for profit containing nude human models then you need to document their age (through a copy of a drivers license etc., and keep it on file for a period of time)." I don't see the problem. More information than that is exchanged when you start a new job anywhere. I see the laws main intent as being a way to prevent the use of underage people in pornography. A worthy goal in my opinion.

Could some of you who object to this law specifically state what exactly you don't like about it, and perhaps a real world plausable situation in which you feel this law would curtail your constitutional rights?

(in reply to JohnWarren)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: My First Experience with U.S.C. 2257 - How is it af... - 9/29/2005 2:47:27 AM   
Behest


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Joined: 9/18/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: pastplayingames



quote:

ORIGINAL: Behest


#1 Every law spoke of in this thread can and is actually superseded by the Constitution. There are probably hundreds of laws on the books, that if taken to the supreme court to be argued, would probably be overturned.





Problem is, which will ever make it to the Supreme Court to be reviewed and possibly overturned is dependent on the Supreme Court "accepting" them for review. Personally, I am scared to death of the pending imbalance the current administration hopes to instill in such a powerful arena as the Supreme Court that will affect our lives for decades to come.

And if this particular law (U.S.C. 2257) doesn't cause people to step back and think, "Wait a minute, why such broad strokes and what about the implications of such?", then perhaps this case will........
http://www.ncsfreedom.org/news/2005/082205SupremeCourtAppealCDA.htm
(Barbara Nitke vs. John Ashcroft)

EVERY politician and political maneuver has an agenda hidden under the layer of 'acceptability to the masses'. We should all be asking ourselves what the motivation is and why.

*my two cents*
~Christine





I have researched the article you posted as best I can and it seems it is very innaccurate.

The Communication Decency Act has already been struck down by the Supreme Court. I have found that in 1997 the Supreme Court ruled against it as unconstitutional.

It stymies me that the article you posted is dated very recently. After reading it several times I believe the group filing suit are arguing about their right to sue someone over the CDA enactment or something along those lines. Irregardless, the case in that article is completely irrelevant seeing as the CDA has already been overturned by the Supreme Court 8 years ago.

< Message edited by Behest -- 9/29/2005 2:50:44 AM >

(in reply to pastplayingames)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: My First Experience with U.S.C. 2257 - How is it af... - 9/29/2005 5:30:42 AM   
pastplayingames


Posts: 50
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Behest,

Try a google search for "Barbara Nitke vs. John Ashcroft" which was the original case. You will find much detail on various sites about the origination of the lawsuit and its current status.

I will try to clarify some things in your post. But bare with me please, I am new to this forum and still trying to find my way around this quote button <g>.



quote:

ORIGINAL: Behest

I have researched the article you posted as best I can and it seems it is very innaccurate.

The Communication Decency Act has already been struck down by the Supreme Court. I have found that in 1997 the Supreme Court ruled against it as unconstitutional.

It stymies me that the article you posted is dated very recently. After reading it several times I believe the group filing suit are arguing about their right to sue someone over the CDA enactment or something along those lines. Irregardless, the case in that article is completely irrelevant seeing as the CDA has already been overturned by the Supreme Court 8 years ago.


Actually, The CDA was only partly struck down:
"In 1997, the Supreme Court struck down part of the CDA, which allowed for prosecution of Internet sites that were "unfit for children." However, the Court left in place the statutes deeming that sexually-oriented material that is "patently offensive under local community standards" is not protected by the First Amendment unless its author can prove its "redeeming social value." "
http://www.ncsfreedom.org/CDA/cdafacts.htm

Barbara Nitke is an artist (fine art photos dealing with sexuality) who recognized the implications of this piece of the law remaining intact. If left as is, any community across the country can find sexually-oriented material on the internet to be 'patently offensive under local community standards', depending on how that community chooses to define their standards and what constitutes 'offensive'.

That community can file suit and drag an artist from NYC, or elsewhere, to that community to defend themselves against prosecution, with the burden of proof to defend their work as having 'redeeming social value'...(who defines this?).

Hope that helps,
~Christine

PS: Here is a link to more background information about the actual trial....before the appeal. I think it better explains the implications of such a law for any sexually-oriented material on the internet (even this forum) than I did.
http://sethf.com/nitke/cda-trial.php

< Message edited by pastplayingames -- 9/29/2005 5:48:33 AM >

(in reply to Behest)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: My First Experience with U.S.C. 2257 - How is it af... - 9/29/2005 6:43:33 AM   
pastplayingames


Posts: 50
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your welcome

quote:

ORIGINAL: mantis65

thanks for that link

Sites like this one would be effected by the law in that article. Its not just Porn they are after its any form of speech they don’t like


(in reply to mantis65)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: My First Experience with U.S.C. 2257 - How is it af... - 9/29/2005 7:46:28 PM   
Tempestspet


Posts: 360
Joined: 1/13/2005
Status: offline
I just want to say thank you to Behest, and Faramir. Well said... I'd like to add more... but you guys said it well enough I don't feel an overwhelming need.

I get rather touchy...ok..pissy... about stuff like this, and people's reactions. So I try very hard to stay neutral. And not get tooo...brutally honest.

So, again, thank you.

Tempest's pet
jennifer

(in reply to Faramir)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: My First Experience with U.S.C. 2257 - How is it af... - 9/29/2005 8:09:31 PM   
JohnWarren


Posts: 3807
Joined: 3/18/2005
From: Delray Beach, FL
Status: offline
Here's a recent law journal article written about this law

http://www.ncsfreedom.org/library/NYLJPersp0825.pdf


_____________________________

www.lovingdominant.org

(in reply to MistressDidi)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: My First Experience with U.S.C. 2257 - How is it af... - 9/29/2005 8:17:11 PM   
pastplayingames


Posts: 50
Status: offline
John,

I have not seen that law journal article before.
Thank you for posting that link.

~Christine

(in reply to JohnWarren)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: My First Experience with U.S.C. 2257 - How is it af... - 9/29/2005 10:47:15 PM   
mantis65


Posts: 456
Joined: 12/27/2004
Status: offline
Well the 2257 recorded keeping law is also being used with the “war on porn” laws to go after any “deviant act” depicted so its not just about record keeping. Tracy lords made mainstream porn paranoid about making sure the woman are of legal age. These new efforts are being pushed to get sadomasochism off US web sites.

I found this on another site about the Website INsex deciding to Sell rather than face a government hassle.

New government regulations and fear of prosecution have apparently caused Insex.com to close its doors permanently.
Q: Why is Intersec Interactive, Inc. selling insex.com?

A: Recent developments related to changes in US law and government
policy have made Intersec a clear target for prosecution. Revisions to
adult record keeping requirements and the creation of a federal task force
specifically targeting producers that create media featuring urination,
defication, sadism and masochism have caused Intersec to decide that
continuing to produce insex.com from the US would be too great a
potential liability.

While Intersec is certain that a potential prosecution would have no
chance of success based upon insex.com's artistic and educational value,
especially in light of other recent high profile obscenity prosecution
failures, the staff is unwilling to fight a lengthy and expensive court
battle only to emerge victorious but bankrupt.


So what’s going to happen even if these laws are never really enforced but left on the books is a chilling effect on subjects that may cause law enforcement to take action on websites. How many people that run websites in the US that have subject matter dealing with something that could land them in jail or eat up all their money are going to take that risk?
BDSM is one of those subjects

if you think this is just about record keeping better check outthis thread also:

http://www.collarchat.com/Recruits_Sought_for_Porn_Squad/m_166381/tm.htm



< Message edited by mantis65 -- 9/29/2005 10:49:27 PM >

(in reply to pastplayingames)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: My First Experience with U.S.C. 2257 - How is it af... - 10/12/2005 2:24:28 PM   
LadyTantalize


Posts: 242
Joined: 4/13/2004
Status: offline
Hey there mantis!!

Actually, I think artwork is next! Verbiage within #2257 states that any depictions deemed obscene fall within the statutes and raids are already occuring. And at this time, most any BDSM depictions are deemed obscene from simple bondage with fully clothed adults to acts of sadomasochism containing no nudity. And, furthermore a raid and shutdown has occured for a BDSM/erotica WRITER! That's right, see below for #2257 at work...

http://xbiz.com/news_piece.php?id=10680

http://www.xbiz.com/news_piece.php?id=10655.





And by the by, Mistress Didi - I love love loved your post and your writings about #2257 at your website! Your stance is commendable! Actually, I've taken a reverse route as to My website.... do think twice and trust fully who you hand your private info to..... I've already been threatened to have My private info outted by a disgruntled party. I trust few during these turbulent times. And I refuse to compromise the privacy of My clients or personal submissives as feel that the right to privacy is just as important fight as the right to free speech. It was a sad day indeed when I removed all of the lovely BSDM photos from My website and began doing no photo shoots involving actual BDSM. Yep, until the FSC, NCSF or ACLU get this madness overturned, I've opted to publicize no photographs unless it's just little ol Me, fully dressed and just holding some implement. Anyway, loved Your website!! And I so hope the madness is reeled in very soon!!

So glad to see this very pertinent problem being discussed here!!!



Truly,

Lady T.

Lady Tatiana Tantalize
Atlanta's Sadistic Southern Belle
http://www.ladytantalize.net

"A prayer for the wild at heart, kept in cages."
-Tennessee Williams-




_____________________________

Truly, Lady T.

Lady Tatiana Tantalize
Atlanta's Sadistic Southern Belle, Crossdressing Consultant, Punk-Rock Party Girl and Wicked SugarPuss
http://www.ladytantalize.net

"A prayer for the wild at heart, kept in cages."
-Tennessee William

(in reply to mantis65)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: My First Experience with U.S.C. 2257 - How is it af... - 10/12/2005 11:20:39 PM   
mantis65


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hi LadyTantalize!
Yes its getting bad they are now raiding websites see the porn squad posts here. I am starting to break into fine painting I think BDSM artwork may be too risky for a while

(in reply to LadyTantalize)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: My First Experience with U.S.C. 2257 - How is it af... - 10/13/2005 11:05:16 AM   
Leonidas


Posts: 2078
Joined: 2/16/2004
Status: offline
quote:

The Constitution is the law of the land, and legislators can't trump it.


Perhaps not in the long run, but in the long run, we'll all be dead. Any idea how many years, and through how many courts, something like this statute will get argued before a final constitutional ruling would be made? Meanwhile, if you are on the business end of the "regulations promulgated by the Attorney General", it will suck up your life, your reputation, and whatever money you might have. The people running scared from this aren't chicken littles. They have reason to run scared. Having them run scared, by the way, is the point of those pushing this.

If it were just a matter of going after the purveyors of kiddie-porn, a far narrower (and probably more effective) statute could have been drafted. No, this is all too obviously a case of handing the AG a club with which to intimidate "those perverts". Yeah, it might ultimately get overturned (or at least substantially narrowed in scope) by constitutional concerns, but in the meantime, it's a club.

quote:

I prefer primary sources when I want to make up my own mind. Reading the text is really only way to make an informed decision.


You can't read that statute and tell how the AG is going to interpret it (or what "regulations" he might promulgate to enforce it based on his interpretation). I'll tell you a little story:

Years ago, I was in the tax-shelter business. I got a call one day from my friendly neighborhood IRS agent. He told me that the IRS had decided that one of the tax-shelters that I was selling was "abusive". I asked him to define "abusive" and his reply was "well, we're taking the position that it's abusive". In other words, we're the government, and we can take any position that we damn well please, and it's up to you to prove us wrong. What he wanted was a list of all the people who had bought that shelter. I said no, I was not going to violate my client's privacy. He said that they could put my company under tax examination, and get the records that way. I still said no. I never heard from them again. They tried to win by intimidation. They failed in my case, but they succeeded in many others. Lots of folks who invested in that shelter got letters saying that they would be subject to draconian measures if they claimed it on their taxes, which was another example of the government winning by intimidation. The shelter itself was legal, and actually upheld when the IRS ruling was challenged (at great expense).

Laws like U.S.C. 2257 are enforced by people. People who don't like what you're doing might interpret the law very differently from how you read it. Do you really want to be in a legal fight with an adversary that has effectively unlimited resources? No, probably not. It's that "no, probably not" that the writers of this statue are counting on. The AG is a political appointee that is appointed for political reasons. If he doesn't like what you're doing, this statue gives him the power to make regulations related to this law that can make your life hell, which is the intent of the authors. If you don't see that, well, to quote you "shame on you, sir".

< Message edited by Leonidas -- 10/13/2005 11:08:38 AM >


_____________________________

Take care of yourself

Leonidas

(in reply to Faramir)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: My First Experience with U.S.C. 2257 - How is it af... - 10/13/2005 11:19:08 AM   
JustaTop


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In the long run,it will only means that these operations have to be hosted offshore. So that means that these ventures will simply be European or Asian ones,rather than Amercian. There is no provision that prevent end users from being denied access to sites that this government cannot hold accountable.

Perhaps the pornography industry needs to network,rather than cutting each other's throats. Package deals with credit companies and servers overseas could poitentially be less expensive for groups, than individuals.

The worst that I have seen the government do so far is to put pressure on us credit processing companies-to deny sites the money that way. Which in turn,only means that end users will be paying the fees to foriegn credit companies, as well.

(in reply to Leonidas)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: My First Experience with U.S.C. 2257 - How is it af... - 10/13/2005 11:22:02 AM   
Leonidas


Posts: 2078
Joined: 2/16/2004
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quote:

In the long run,it will only means that these operations have to be hosted offshore.


Won't do a U.S. Pornographer any good to host a site offshore. He'd still be liable if it were subscribed to and viewed by folks in the U.S. Offshore pornographers who hosted offshore might be OK.

_____________________________

Take care of yourself

Leonidas

(in reply to JustaTop)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: My First Experience with U.S.C. 2257 - How is it af... - 10/13/2005 11:29:08 AM   
JustaTop


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Nods,if they can actually prove that the photos were shot in the us.

Or live near the borders,and do your shoots and have the offices and companies in mexico, or canada. If there were issues with immigration etc...get yourself a local partner as a liason.(I'd really enjoy watching the feds to try get search warrants in THOSE locales )


The burden of proof would be on a prosecutor,to PROVE where they were taken. And a particular set would look the same anywhere.

< Message edited by JustaTop -- 10/13/2005 11:37:01 AM >

(in reply to Leonidas)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: My First Experience with U.S.C. 2257 - How is it af... - 10/13/2005 11:58:07 AM   
Leonidas


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Joined: 2/16/2004
Status: offline
I don't see anything in the statute that says you don't have to keep records if the people in the pictures are foreigners. Says that you have to keep records if they are engaging in sex acts or "lascivious" simulations of sex acts. "But, she's a Mexican!" isn't going to fly, I'm afraid.

_____________________________

Take care of yourself

Leonidas

(in reply to JustaTop)
Profile   Post #: 40
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