Faith to the faithless, a perspective

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SugarMyChurro -> Faith to the faithless, a perspective (2/4/2008 5:32:31 PM)
I tried thinking of an analogy that would perfectly explain how agnostics or atheists perceive people of faith. While it is admittedly ethnocentric, the best likeness with which I could come up was the belief in Santa Claus. Do you remember how when you were really young your parents had you believing in Santa Claus? Every Xmas you would scurry off to bed early on Xmas eve worried that if you didn't get to sleep quickly enough Santa might pass you by. For some reason it was the case that Santa always had to perform his acts of generosity unobserved. This Santa situation continued in just that way for a few years probably. Then came the day that an older sibling or friend sprang the truth upon you: Santa Claus didn't exist! You denied this obvious falsehood - they couldn't fool you. Of course, Santa existed. He left gifts, right? He ate the cookies you left for him, right? Didn't you hear him performing his tasks late on Xmas eve? There had to be an explanation. So one day you stayed up and waited for Santa - to see him at last. Maybe you dozed for a while that Xmas eve. But the minute you heard those Santa noises you woke with a start and crept out of your room and down the hall to see who was there for real. And didn't you see your Mom and Dad wrapping and arranging gifts? Gifts seem to be coming out of everywhere - cupboards, closets, from under the sofa, dad was even rolling a bicycle in from the garage outside. But no Santa. Santa seemed to have no part in this. You made sure to check what sorts of things were being placed under the tree so you wouldn't forget the next morning. Maybe there would be something new there - proof of Santa's visit to your house. And the next day, your worst fears were confirmed for you. You opened your gifts happily enough. But there was nothing that was not there the night before - purposefully placed there by your parents. Deceitfully placed there, you now knew. Maybe some days afterward you mentioned to your mom that you no longer believed in Santa Claus. In this manner you let your parents know that they had been made. The jig was up! No more Santa for you. For most of us non-believers - we agnostics and atheists - the rest of you "believers" seem exactly like children that still believe in Santa Claus. Sadly, you don't get the joke that's been played on you. There is no grey-bearded man in the sky awaiting you, no paradise of an afterlife, no great reward at the end of your days. Did no one inform you of this obvious fact? You still maintain that this hilarious illusion is true? Did you never notice that god never showed up for any of his supposed miracles, it was only ever just the people around you - or maybe just the local preacher of a nun? That the grape juice never really did turn into wine? That the bread was bread and not made into flesh? Well, that's how I see it anyway. Belief is wonderfully entertaining, comforting, and inspiring while it lasts. And then you grow up to the truths about life. Many of us do at any rate.

thompsonx -> RE: Faith to the faithless, a perspective (2/4/2008 5:43:46 PM)
Killjoy [;)]

christine1 -> RE: Faith to the faithless, a perspective (2/4/2008 5:44:18 PM)
great essay there, but why does it matter if some people believe in Santa and some don't? to each his own and all that good stuff. i'm just sayin...

bipolarber -> RE: Faith to the faithless, a perspective (2/4/2008 5:56:56 PM)
Sugar, Well, you make a good case. Nicely thought out, well written, and to the point. But you do kind of miss the whole point. I'm not articulate enough to be able to refute your argument, so I'm not going to try to. Instead, I think I'll paraphrase Terry Pratchett: "Belief is something that humans need in their lives, in order to remain human. They need to believe in little lies, like Santa Claus, or the Easter Bunny, so that they can find it within themselves to believe in the BIG lies later on in life. The lies that keep them from going off the deep end into insanity. Take the universe, grind it up into the finest powder and sift it through the finest sive, and show me one molecule of justice, one atom of mercy, a shred of love. No, these things do not exist in the material universe at all. If they are to exist, they do so because human minds have chosen to imagine them, and to believe in them. Without belief, how can these things ever be?" -Death, in Terry Pratchett's "Hogfather" God is just an anthropomorphic representation of these concepts. God may not exist in the judeo-christian conception of him/her/it, but some sort of belief in god-like qualities is absolutely nesseccary!

Rule -> RE: Faith to the faithless, a perspective (2/4/2008 6:14:04 PM)
I am sorry that you were traumatized by what you saw and did not comprehend. Santa needs you.

celticlord2112 -> RE: Faith to the faithless, a perspective (2/4/2008 6:34:19 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SugarMyChurro For most of us non-believers - we agnostics and atheists - the rest of you "believers" seem exactly like children that still believe in Santa Claus. Sadly, you don't get the joke that's been played on you. There is no grey-bearded man in the sky awaiting you, no paradise of an afterlife, no great reward at the end of your days. Did no one inform you of this obvious fact? You still maintain that this hilarious illusion is true? Did you never notice that god never showed up for any of his supposed miracles, it was only ever just the people around you - or maybe just the local preacher of a nun? That the grape juice never really did turn into wine? That the bread was bread and not made into flesh? Your analogy--and your "facts"-- are in error. There is no empirical evidence establishing what, if anything, happens to a person after physiological death. Even among the great religions of the world, there is great disagreement on the form and even existence of the afterlife. The Christian expostulations of the soul are matched by Buddhist analyses disputing the existence of the soul. Moreover, the atheist is motivated as much by faith as the evangelical Christian--his belief is merely phrased in the negative rather than the affirmative. The agnostic is the true opposite of the person of faith; he dispenses with faith and acknowledges his intellectual uncertainty regarding "the undiscovered country" (apologies to Shakespeare); still, uncertainty precludes his arrogating the certitude you exhibit regarding the beliefs of others. What people believe--or do not believe--is a matter for themselves within the privacy of their own hearts, minds, and souls (for those who believe in souls). While a Christian may not pray to Allah, while the Muslim may not take communion, while the Buddhist refrains from both, yet none are precluded from acknowledging the merit of faith, and its power to make people better, regardless of the particulars of that faith. You may choose to disbelieve. Others choose to believe. I respect both paths, while walking my own as best I can. quote: Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.

servantheart -> RE: Faith to the faithless, a perspective (2/4/2008 6:42:21 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SugarMyChurro I tried thinking of an analogy that would perfectly explain how agnostics or atheists perceive people of faith. While it is admittedly ethnocentric, the best likeness with which I could come up was the belief in Santa Claus. Do you remember how when you were really young your parents had you believing in Santa Claus? Every Xmas you would scurry off to bed early on Xmas eve worried that if you didn't get to sleep quickly enough Santa might pass you by. For some reason it was the case that Santa always had to perform his acts of generosity unobserved. This Santa situation continued in just that way for a few years probably. Then came the day that an older sibling or friend sprang the truth upon you: Santa Claus didn't exist! You denied this obvious falsehood - they couldn't fool you. Of course, Santa existed. He left gifts, right? He ate the cookies you left for him, right? Didn't you hear him performing his tasks late on Xmas eve? There had to be an explanation. So one day you stayed up and waited for Santa - to see him at last. Maybe you dozed for a while that Xmas eve. But the minute you heard those Santa noises you woke with a start and crept out of your room and down the hall to see who was there for real. And didn't you see your Mom and Dad wrapping and arranging gifts? Gifts seem to be coming out of everywhere - cupboards, closets, from under the sofa, dad was even rolling a bicycle in from the garage outside. But no Santa. Santa seemed to have no part in this. You made sure to check what sorts of things were being placed under the tree so you wouldn't forget the next morning. Maybe there would be something new there - proof of Santa's visit to your house. And the next day, your worst fears were confirmed for you. You opened your gifts happily enough. But there was nothing that was not there the night before - purposefully placed there by your parents. Deceitfully placed there, you now knew. Maybe some days afterward you mentioned to your mom that you no longer believed in Santa Claus. In this manner you let your parents know that they had been made. The jig was up! No more Santa for you. For most of us non-believers - we agnostics and atheists - the rest of you "believers" seem exactly like children that still believe in Santa Claus. Sadly, you don't get the joke that's been played on you. There is no grey-bearded man in the sky awaiting you, no paradise of an afterlife, no great reward at the end of your days. Did no one inform you of this obvious fact? You still maintain that this hilarious illusion is true? Did you never notice that god never showed up for any of his supposed miracles, it was only ever just the people around you - or maybe just the local preacher of a nun? That the grape juice never really did turn into wine? That the bread was bread and not made into flesh? Well, that's how I see it anyway. Belief is wonderfully entertaining, comforting, and inspiring while it lasts. And then you grow up to the truths about life. Many of us do at any rate. Don't you have anything better to do with your time than attempt to stir up a bunch of trouble here?

charmdpetKeira -> RE: Faith to the faithless, a perspective (2/4/2008 6:43:37 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SugarMyChurro And the next day, your worst fears were confirmed for you. You opened your gifts happily enough. But there was nothing that was not there the night before - purposefully placed there by your parents. Deceitfully placed there, you now knew. Maybe some days afterward you mentioned to your mom that you no longer believed in Santa Claus. In this manner you let your parents know that they had been made. The jig was up! No more Santa for you. Funny, this is the explanation I was using for those who don’t have faith. Perhaps you should just quit trying to figure it out. k

MzMia -> RE: Faith to the faithless, a perspective (2/4/2008 6:44:50 PM)
Thanks for the post Churro. Do you want to know what many of US Believers Think about YOU Non-believers? We wonder who you believe created you? We wonder if you believe human beings and the Universe "just happened" from nothing. We often wonder what Non-Believers say when they breathe their last breath. Most of all, many of us feel very sorry for you. To live life with no Belief, must be sad and scary. I really can not even comprehend it. I am serious, I feel very sorry for you. [:)]

lazarus1983 -> RE: Faith to the faithless, a perspective (2/4/2008 6:50:41 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: bipolarber Sugar, Well, you make a good case. Nicely thought out, well written, and to the point. But you do kind of miss the whole point. I'm not articulate enough to be able to refute your argument, so I'm not going to try to. Instead, I think I'll paraphrase Terry Pratchett: "Belief is something that humans need in their lives, in order to remain human. They need to believe in little lies, like Santa Claus, or the Easter Bunny, so that they can find it within themselves to believe in the BIG lies later on in life. The lies that keep them from going off the deep end into insanity. Take the universe, grind it up into the finest powder and sift it through the finest sive, and show me one molecule of justice, one atom of mercy, a shred of love. No, these things do not exist in the material universe at all. If they are to exist, they do so because human minds have chosen to imagine them, and to believe in them. Without belief, how can these things ever be?" -Death, in Terry Pratchett's "Hogfather" God is just an anthropomorphic representation of these concepts. God may not exist in the judeo-christian conception of him/her/it, but some sort of belief in god-like qualities is absolutely nesseccary! Belief is something humans need? We MUST believe in god-like qualities? Perhaps. But why does that belief HAVE to be in some kind of deity? I believe in myself, and I believe in the human race. I believe the good we can and have accomplished; I believe in the limitless potential of the human race, and I also believe in our failings, our evils. I believe that I alone am morally responsible for my own actions. I find belief in the human race and its potentials and pitfalls to be all the belief I need. And besides, since we rarely if ever manufacture gods that are bigger or better than ourselves, belief in humanity can be construed as belief in a deity.

thompsonx -> RE: Faith to the faithless, a perspective (2/4/2008 6:52:28 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MzMia Thanks for the post Churro. Do you want to know what many of US Believers Think about YOU Non-believers? We wonder who you believe created you? We wonder if you believe human beings and the Universe "just happened" from nothing. We often wonder what Non-Believers say when they breathe their last breath. Most of all, many of us feel very sorry for you. To live life with no Belief, must be sad and scary. I really can not even comprehend it. I am serious, I feel very sorry for you. [:)] MzMia: I was wondering if I could not get a little of that pity while you are at it. I am a full tilt athiest he is only an agnostic. Imagines self with his head in her lap being reassured by her gentle touch.[;)] thompson

MzMia -> RE: Faith to the faithless, a perspective (2/4/2008 6:54:15 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: thompsonx quote: ORIGINAL: MzMia Thanks for the post Churro. Do you want to know what many of US Believers Think about YOU Non-believers? We wonder who you believe created you? We wonder if you believe human beings and the Universe "just happened" from nothing. We often wonder what Non-Believers say when they breathe their last breath. Most of all, many of us feel very sorry for you. To live life with no Belief, must be sad and scary. I really can not even comprehend it. I am serious, I feel very sorry for you. [:)] MzMia: I was wondering if I could not get a little of that pity while you are at it. I am a full tilt athiest he is only an agnostic. Imagines self with his head in her lap being reassured by her gentle touch.[;)] thompson lol Come here my little lost sheep. {heathen} Just don't try to feel my breast, as I comfort you! I have people waiting for me on the other side. [:D] Waiting for me to cross over! Glory! I take it, that you don't?

celticlord2112 -> RE: Faith to the faithless, a perspective (2/4/2008 6:56:30 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MzMia We wonder who you believe created you? We wonder if you believe human beings and the Universe "just happened" from nothing. Apparently, SugarMyChurro believes he is an accident, which is defined as an "unexpected and undesirable event". Curiously, I am not disposed to argue his assessment.

lazarus1983 -> RE: Faith to the faithless, a perspective (2/4/2008 6:59:45 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MzMia Thanks for the post Churro. Do you want to know what many of US Believers Think about YOU Non-believers? We wonder who you believe created you? We wonder if you believe human beings and the Universe "just happened" from nothing. We often wonder what Non-Believers say when they breathe their last breath. Most of all, many of us feel very sorry for you. To live life with no Belief, must be sad and scary. I really can not even comprehend it. I am serious, I feel very sorry for you. [:)] And as a non-believer, I don't know how you believers can claim allegiance to any kind of god that has the manners of a spoiled child, constantly demanding attention and adoration, and will become angry and petulant when it doesn't receive any. As a non-believer, I don't know how you believers have any time left in your day, since you're constantly trying to get the blood off your hands from untold amounts of atrocities committed in the name of your god. And like I said in my post, just because I don't believe in Mohammed or Jeebus or whomever doesn't mean I lack faith. I believe in myself, and I believe in the human race.

MzMia -> RE: Faith to the faithless, a perspective (2/4/2008 7:00:13 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: celticlord2112 quote: ORIGINAL: MzMia We wonder who you believe created you? We wonder if you believe human beings and the Universe "just happened" from nothing. Apparently, SugarMyChurro believes he is an accident, which is defined as an "unexpected and undesirable event". Curiously, I am not disposed to argue his assessment. I am far from a scientist, but we all know that nothing creates nothing. All the planets, galaxies and the stars and the Universe, everything and everyone on the planet Earth. Just happened!!!!! We all came from NOTHING. hahahahahahahahhahaa[8\|]

bornsynner -> RE: Faith to the faithless, a perspective (2/4/2008 7:03:21 PM)
just thought i'd throw my 2cents in here.. in my opinion, mankind came up with religion in order to explain things which they couldnt explain, in order to tame chaos, and in order to give hope in times of none.. as to the question of who or what created us, does it really matter?.. does it matter what happens after we die?.. i dont know for sure whats going to happen tomorrow but i dont look to religion for those answers either.. i deal with things on a day-to-day basis... i dont need religion to give me 'answers' that may or may not be true

PrizedPosession -> RE: Faith to the faithless, a perspective (2/4/2008 7:03:38 PM)
My agnostic beliefs are not because i was lied to or anything of the sort. i grew up in a home where my grandpa is an episocpal minister, his wife is roman catholic, my other grandmother is buddhist and my other set of grandparents are both jewish. i grew up with so many things that it is hard to believe in one thing fully. Plus i like philosophy and kind of agree with existenisalism for the most part. It's not the amount, if any,of faith that is what's important, it's being a decent human being. -bobcat But that's just me

MzMia -> RE: Faith to the faithless, a perspective (2/4/2008 7:04:25 PM)
Well lazarus you are free to not believe, as we are free to believe. I have made my point, I am not on here to convert. Peace and Blessings Anyway

celticlord2112 -> RE: Faith to the faithless, a perspective (2/4/2008 7:04:27 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: lazarus1983 quote: ORIGINAL: MzMia Thanks for the post Churro. Do you want to know what many of US Believers Think about YOU Non-believers? We wonder who you believe created you? We wonder if you believe human beings and the Universe "just happened" from nothing. We often wonder what Non-Believers say when they breathe their last breath. Most of all, many of us feel very sorry for you. To live life with no Belief, must be sad and scary. I really can not even comprehend it. I am serious, I feel very sorry for you. [:)] And as a non-believer, I don't know how you believers can claim allegiance to any kind of god that has the manners of a spoiled child, constantly demanding attention and adoration, and will become angry and petulant when it doesn't receive any. As a non-believer, I don't know how you believers have any time left in your day, since you're constantly trying to get the blood off your hands from untold amounts of atrocities committed in the name of your god. And like I said in my post, just because I don't believe in Mohammed or Jeebus or whomever doesn't mean I lack faith. I believe in myself, and I believe in the human race. You have faith. How then are you an unbeliever? Faith is faith. Of itself, it is the province of neither God nor Man--it is common ground available to all.

lazarus1983 -> RE: Faith to the faithless, a perspective (2/4/2008 7:08:43 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: celticlord2112 quote: ORIGINAL: lazarus1983 quote: ORIGINAL: MzMia Thanks for the post Churro. Do you want to know what many of US Believers Think about YOU Non-believers? We wonder who you believe created you? We wonder if you believe human beings and the Universe "just happened" from nothing. We often wonder what Non-Believers say when they breathe their last breath. Most of all, many of us feel very sorry for you. To live life with no Belief, must be sad and scary. I really can not even comprehend it. I am serious, I feel very sorry for you. [:)] And as a non-believer, I don't know how you believers can claim allegiance to any kind of god that has the manners of a spoiled child, constantly demanding attention and adoration, and will become angry and petulant when it doesn't receive any. As a non-believer, I don't know how you believers have any time left in your day, since you're constantly trying to get the blood off your hands from untold amounts of atrocities committed in the name of your god. And like I said in my post, just because I don't believe in Mohammed or Jeebus or whomever doesn't mean I lack faith. I believe in myself, and I believe in the human race. You have faith. How then are you an unbeliever? Faith is faith. Of itself, it is the province of neither God nor Man--it is common ground available to all. According to religious types, I am a non-believer. According to the opposition in this thread, I am a non-believer because I don't believe in a god. True, there are things I believe in. I simply claimed that I didn't need a crux like religion. I can stand on my own two feet and face the unknowns, simply with the belief in myself and my abilities.

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