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RE: Are women born to be bitches? - 2/6/2008 10:28:18 AM

laurell3

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Oh for sure, all of us women will have been called a bitch at one point or another in our lives. When a man calls me that, I can feel nearly vindicated, but if a woman did, I'd probably feel awful, because that's the last thing I want to be to another woman.

It's all part of life's rich tapestry, and all that kind of thing :-) .

Your thread got me thinking - I must avoid having female friends without realising it. In my close 'circle' of friends - only two are female and I have known her since school, the other is my daughter.
My Master is male. My best friends male, my doctor is male and even my ex-husband was male.

the.dark.

I do also, but I don't tend to be very girly in the things I converse about so it's natural for me I guess. Men are much less likely to make unnecessary drama though and I appreciate that in them.

< Message edited by laurell3 -- 2/6/2008 10:58:42 AM >

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RE: Are women born to be bitches? - 2/6/2008 10:28:54 AM

KatyLied

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quote:

There have been several times on these boards when people have intimated I was being a bitch (some over and over and their opinions I discard as being overly sensitive as they seem to do it with everyone).

I've had that experience too. Sometimes resulting in emails trying to convince me of how mean I am. I just figure they are people of a brittle, sheltered nature.

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Post #: 162

RE: Are women born to be bitches? - 2/6/2008 10:38:22 AM

cloudboy

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Joined: 12/14/2005
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quote:

I was bullied (never very seriously) at school. I saw how nasty and bitchy girls could be to one another first hand, and I think their motive was jealousy

There is a book out devoted entirely to the subject of girls' aggression entitled ODD GIRL OUT Odd Girl Out: The Hidden Culture of Aggression in Girls.

Here's a small section:

There is a hidden culture of girls' aggression in which bullying is epidemic, distinctive, and destructive. It is not marked by the direct physical or verbal behavior that is primarily the province of boys. Our culture refuses girls access to open conflict, and it forces their aggression into nonphysical, indirect, and covert forms. Girls use backbiting, exclusion, rumors, name-calling, and manipulation to inflict psychological pain on targeted victims. Unlike boys, who tend to bully acquaintances or strangers, girls frequently attack within tightly knit networks of friends, making aggression harder to identify and intensifying the damage to victims.

My wife also likes to say that because F's are typically more "sensitive" and "emotionally attuned," they are also more versed at how to painfully stick the knife into others emotionally and psychologically. She pretty much agrees with the tenet's of your OP completely.

< Message edited by cloudboy -- 2/6/2008 10:39:25 AM >

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Post #: 163

RE: Are women born to be bitches? - 2/6/2008 10:38:22 AM

kittinSol

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sexyred1

So many have tried to make this thread end on a positive and cute note and others keep adding their negative personal issues to it. Some people just cannot let things go and they seem to thrive on instigation.

Perhaps you're annoyed because you want the last word on a thread that you just bullied your way into at the eleventh hour?

As for 'petty instigations'... that was a great pass at humour

!

If you really have to take this further, I advise you to use the Private Messenging device on the site: you have visited my profile enough times that you know where it's at. The constant derailing is getting a little old. Thanks.

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Post #: 164

RE: Are women born to be bitches? - 2/6/2008 10:43:56 AM

Bound2One

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quote:

How do you think mothers could encourage female solidarity and companionship and obliterate petty belligerence, suspicion and envy? I have a son, so he isn't directly involved, but if I had a daughter I know I would be particularly weary of the system she would be sent into. What do you think?

I have 3 kids - my son is 15; my daughters are 12 and 6. I do find that my son is directly involved because he has a very wide range of friends, with lots of girls that are friends also. He sees the cattiness that goes on and questions it. He can't believe how mean some of the girls can be. He's even made comments about how he and his male friends tease and insult one another and it bounces off of them, but that the girls hang on to every little thing.

With the 12yo - she's right in the midst of middle school (6th to 8th grade) and hormones are absolutely raging there. Girls are clamoring to be in the 'in crowd' which generally means excluding and being nasty to anyone who threatens their status. My daughter is a bit on the nerdy side yet friendly, so she's a little on the outside of the whole larger social scene. She has her little circle of friends and hasn't had to deal with any bullying yet, but she's well aware it's out there. I talk a lot with the kids about social structure, what to value in a friendship, how certain behavior that they see exhibited is unacceptable.

One last thought - I have a very close-knit circle of girlfriends, maybe ten of us altogether. I think showing the example of how tight women can be and how much we can lean on one another and just how vital having these girlfriends in our lives is - that's a great life lesson for my kids in and of itself.

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Post #: 165

RE: Are women born to be bitches? - 2/6/2008 11:01:14 AM

kittinSol

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Thanks, cloudboy. This book is pretty much compulsory reading for this subject. I don't know whether to feel sad or vindicated that your wife agrees with the tennet of the thread

. Thanks for the quote: it's exactly what I was trying to touch on here.

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Post #: 166

RE: Are women born to be bitches? - 2/6/2008 11:05:33 AM

kittinSol

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bound2One

quote:

How do you think mothers could encourage female solidarity and companionship and obliterate petty belligerence, suspicion and envy? I have a son, so he isn't directly involved, but if I had a daughter I know I would be particularly weary of the system she would be sent into. What do you think?

My daughter is a bit on the nerdy side yet friendly, so she's a little on the outside of the whole larger social scene. She has her little circle of friends and hasn't had to deal with any bullying yet, but she's well aware it's out there. I talk a lot with the kids about social structure, what to value in a friendship, how certain behavior that they see exhibited is unacceptable.

One last thought - I have a very close-knit circle of girlfriends, maybe ten of us altogether. I think showing the example of how tight women can be and how much we can lean on one another and just how vital having these girlfriends in our lives is - that's a great life lesson for my kids in and of itself.

Do you think we should teach girls to admire other girls' qualities, instead of raising them to compete for an unreachable idea of perfection? There's nothing wrong with healthy competition in areas such as academia and sport, obviously...

PS: your daughter sounds a lot like me when I was her age :-) .

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Post #: 167

RE: Are women born to be bitches? - 2/6/2008 11:07:27 AM

RCdc

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol
How do you think mothers could encourage female solidarity and companionship and obliterate petty belligerence, suspicion and envy? I have a son, so he isn't directly involved, but if I had a daughter I know I would be particularly weary of the system she would be sent into. What do you think?

Well as a mother to both sexes, I have always made sure I treated them equally for one so I belive that my son is involved to an extent. And that included right down to the colours they wore, pet names that reflected behaviour rather than gender and a constant teaching reminder that no ones better than anyone else and keeping them pretty open minded about everything possible. I never had gender related toys available just for one and not for the other.

A few months back, my girl came home, and we were talking clothes and hair. All of her friends have short hair or close cropped. Her's is below her waist and hair to die for, really. And she went through weeks of pressure that she should cut her hair. I could see the pressure she was under and quite honestly, I don't know how she got herself through it other than I have always tried to teach them to understand their self worth and importance in society, no matter what gender they are, what age or orientation. And that both she and my son are comfortable with who they are I guess.

the.dark.

grrrr..... typos.

< Message edited by Darcyandthedark -- 2/6/2008 11:08:37 AM >

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RE: Are women born to be bitches? - 2/6/2008 11:14:52 AM

subtee

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FR~

Everything that I believe is wrong with you is wrong with me~ Amy Ray, Indigo Girls

This line has resonated with and made me pause often. The intimation is that the things that are most troubling in others are things that we ourselves struggle with.

[Edited for spelling]

< Message edited by subtee -- 2/6/2008 11:17:50 AM >

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RE: Are women born to be bitches? - 2/6/2008 11:23:20 AM

bethylovescuddle

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if all women are born to be bitches then all men are born to be sex offenders, sure there's probably a rather high percentage of potential ones on either sides but you shouldn't say all women are it ,some of us get offended"!!!!!

(in reply to sexyred1)

Post #: 170

RE: Are women born to be bitches? - 2/6/2008 11:27:10 AM

RCdc

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bound2One
With the 12yo - she's right in the midst of middle school (6th to 8th grade) and hormones are absolutely raging there. Girls are clamoring to be in the 'in crowd' which generally means excluding and being nasty to anyone who threatens their status. My daughter is a bit on the nerdy side yet friendly, so she's a little on the outside of the whole larger social scene. She has her little circle of friends and hasn't had to deal with any bullying yet, but she's well aware it's out there. I talk a lot with the kids about social structure, what to value in a friendship, how certain behavior that they see exhibited is unacceptable.

I find that mine flits in and out of many crowds, but I have seen her actively avoid the 'pretty' crowd. It's changed since my day... the pretty girls were the cool crowd, now in my daughters area, the cool crowd are more the 'rock' crowd and they usually are the high acheivers, or the ones who are in a band, hang out in coffee bars and at 'Forbidden Planet'. They are unusually politically aware as well.

the.dark.

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Post #: 171

RE: Are women born to be bitches? - 2/6/2008 11:45:44 AM

Bound2One

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[Do you think we should teach girls to admire other girls' qualities, instead of raising them to compete for an unreachable idea of perfection? There's nothing wrong with healthy competition in areas such as academia and sport, obviously...

PS: your daughter sounds a lot like me when I was her age :-) . ]

Most definitely I think they should be taught to admire other girls' strengths. My kids are competitive swimmers, which is a very measurable sport - so when her friend "J" does well, she praises her... when her friends do well in a test, she praises them. My daughter is a born type-A personality and drives herself very hard... but it's easy for her to say 'hey, she did really well today' when speaking of a friend. I love that about her.

We also have an interesting thing with sports and school between her and my 15yo son. She excels in school and does well in swim; he works hard in school and excels in high school swim - he's in the local paper all the time. She will occasionally say 'hey!' in a 'what about me' kinda way and complain that he's always in the paper. He will occasionally say 'hey!' in a 'what about me' kinda way when she brings home all A's and he's got a couple of C's. I tell both of them the same thing - work on your weaker areas; love your strengths and don't be jealous because the other has something you want. Go for what you want and compete within yourself. You'll get farther.

You can definitely have healthy competition, but it's also important for both girls and boys to understand their parameters, their limitations and their strengths and to be realistic. If a girl is brought up to believe everything she does is gold ... it's going to be a long and nasty fall when she realizes things aren't as perfect as she'd like and that the world doesn't revolve around her. I think a lot of this happens these days with parents stepping in to be sure little kids get exactly what they want when they want it ... and that sets up the insecurities and bullying when those girls realize life isn't magical after all.

(in reply to kittinSol)

Post #: 172

RE: Are women born to be bitches? - 2/6/2008 11:46:09 AM

lusciouslips19

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quote:

ORIGINAL: fluffyswitch

fast reply

i read the entire thread (for once...) and my personal impression is that one person's confidence is another person's bitchiness. so it doesn't really matter anyway because someone will like you at some point and someone will hate you. i'm used to being called a bitch. i embrace it in that it's easier than fighting it (yes i'm lazy in that regard). i've also been called cocky, full of sh*t, and numerous other things. i think it's all in where you stand.

Oh honey, I could never hate you!

I do identify with what you say though. I have a very strong personality, a loud voice and an odd sense of humor. I am use to being much loved or much hated. I however, feel compassion for everyone. Some make it harder than others to well up that compassion in me. But I due try. How? Look for the injured inner child living right under the surface.

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Post #: 173

RE: Are women born to be bitches? - 2/6/2008 11:49:08 AM

Bound2One

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Joined: 1/11/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

I find that mine flits in and out of many crowds, but I have seen her actively avoid the 'pretty' crowd. It's changed since my day... the pretty girls were the cool crowd, now in my daughters area, the cool crowd are more the 'rock' crowd and they usually are the high acheivers, or the ones who are in a band, hang out in coffee bars and at 'Forbidden Planet'. They are unusually politically aware as well.

the.dark.

How old are your kids?

I love the description of the cool crowd. I am reassured somewhat that when kids reach high school here (9th through 12th grade) groups matter less and the kids are more sure of who they are.

on an off-topic note, I'm also amazed that your daughter had pressure to cut her hair!! Here hair must be straight as a pin and well past the shoulders to be acceptable. lol

< Message edited by Bound2One -- 2/6/2008 11:50:15 AM >

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Post #: 174

RE: Are women born to be bitches? - 2/6/2008 11:57:07 AM

RCdc

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When I was the age she is now (13) the 'in' thing was to have long hair. I was so surprised she came under so much pressure. Something further I did discover though, most of the girls had their hair cut by or under their mothers supervision. Admittedly, this makes many of the girls 'look' older - maybe that is the reason? I tend to let her have it the way she is most comortable.

the.dark.

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RE: Are women born to be bitches? - 2/6/2008 12:44:33 PM

kyraofMists

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quote:

ORIGINAL: laurell3

quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark
Your thread got me thinking - I must avoid having female friends without realising it. In my close 'circle' of friends - only two are female and I have known her since school, the other is my daughter.
My Master is male. My best friends male, my doctor is male and even my ex-husband was male.

the.dark.

I do also, but I don't tend to be very girly in the things I converse about so it's natural for me I guess. Men are much less likely to make unnecessary drama though and I appreciate that in them.

The very first best friends that I had growing up were Christopher and Michael. Throughout my life I have always had more male friends than female and I used to boss them around quite a bit *g* Seeing my behavior as a child, most people would not expect me to be the submissive in my relationship, but that is another issue.

I am perceived as direct and unemotional. The women that I have met don't usually want that trait in other women, especially if they tend to the emotional and dramatic end of the spectrum. In general, the women that I get along with best are the ones who prefer male company to female.

Knight's Kyra

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Post #: 176

RE: Are women born to be bitches? - 2/6/2008 12:57:23 PM

batshalom

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

I have to add, that I don't think cliques are necessarily a bad thing - that cliques are only the group of friends that are labelled as such when a person doesn't 'fit' into them. Otherwise they are a circle of friends if one does.

Also known as a granfalloon, an ambiguous and meaningless term denoting a gathering of like minded individuals who are wary and watchful of others outside the collective. Sometimes the attachments are positively correlated with behavior, sometimes negatively, but it's an altogether delightful word just the same. ~smiling~ Granfalloons are easy to create and effective to have if there is an agenda to be met, i.e. social heirarchy of some sort.

As to why women are particularly bitchy toward other women, I daresay the variables are many. So. ~looking around~ Who to put in the control group ... and which group to manipulate ...

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Post #: 177

RE: Are women born to be bitches? - 2/6/2008 1:08:54 PM

kittinSol

Posts: 16926
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Maybe it's a language thing. In French, a clique is mostly a derogatory word to describe a group.

quote:

Une clique est aussi un terme péjoratif pour caractériser un groupe restreint.

Bilingualism can be confusing

.

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Post #: 178

RE: Are women born to be bitches? - 2/6/2008 6:21:13 PM

ForeverOwned

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In my experience when the word clique has been used it was not meant as a positive thing. It usually referred to a group of people who thought they were better than anyone else, and everyone else was beneath them.

Propbly the best example comes from when we were in school..

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Post #: 179

RE: Are women born to be bitches? - 2/6/2008 7:43:56 PM

Gwynvyd

Posts: 4949
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quote:

ORIGINAL: fluffyswitch

fast reply

i read the entire thread (for once...) and my personal impression is that one person's confidence is another person's bitchiness. so it doesn't really matter anyway because someone will like you at some point and someone will hate you. i'm used to being called a bitch. i embrace it in that it's easier than fighting it (yes i'm lazy in that regard). i've also been called cocky, full of sh*t, and numerous other things. i think it's all in where you stand.

Yeppers.. that about sums it up.

I have had a lot of people in my life call me a conceited bitch. Say I am uppity.. ect. *shrugs* what ever. ( I tend to talk in full, coherent sentances... so sue me.) I was not put on this Earth to make everyone happy... or everyone's life easier. I have my job. I do my job.. and care for my family and friends. You can't please everyone all of the time.. why bother trying? I do not go out of my way to be a pain in the ass. And those who are my friends know I would give someone the shirt off my back if they were in need. As for people being assholes, or bitches.... ehhh fuck em. If you ignore them.. and give them none of your energy or time.. eventualy they will wither away and leave. You can not make them stop thier behavior.. but you can chose how you react to it. If you chose the high road.. and give them nothing to feed apon.. well then.. they have no where to go with it. Plus you come out looking lovely. Easy to say.. hard to pull off. but worth a go.

Besides when people look back they will see who began the bitch fest.
I think in my time here I have only truly jumped one persons shit because it was so imbecilic to be unbeliveable. *smiles*

As for work, most of the Managers are women. Out of them.. most are minorities.. Either Black or Hispanic. The main top boss is a Black male. *love him! he is soooo awesome!* Our gay people are waaaay out of the closet at my work as well. As evidenced by the open flirtations even though I am a "taken" woman. I have no issues with going to any of my co workers, or managers, or any one in my divison and talking with them. But then that is how our company is set up, and I am an upfront kind of person.

Gwyn

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Post #: 180

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