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RE: Socialism - 2/10/2008 8:48:13 AM

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Well, it is missed for a reason. What is socialism if not a political notion? What is a socialist institution? The red cross?

Abstractive processing of thought is not unattainable, but one can not hope to consider building the way-back machine and hope to keep the discourse in a real plane of thought.

Ron

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RE: Socialism - 2/10/2008 9:33:47 AM

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It's alright.. I'm not really going to go any further with this, although I can appreciate your point.

A socialist institution is like universal heathcare; an institution which is socialist in nature.

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RE: Socialism - 2/10/2008 9:58:21 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol
It's frightening when a young person holds beliefs that would be dear to an old fascist .

Indeed...especially when the youngster lives off the labors of others. Also, how do we determine the relative worth of a Pizza Hut worker vs a self-proclaimed genius cloistered in a dorm room or a student apartment? I had a damned tasty pizza just the other night and that was tangible...real. Compare that to the contribution of a...uh...mere student. The pizza people are actually doing something. The "student" is a 'taker', arguably a frivolous social geegaw. Kinda like the fins on a 50s Cadillac.

My point is: this whole "who is worth it?" discussion is bullshit. Benny Hill was a genius. Love those tit jokes! Mozart was a hack...buncha goddamn noise.

Bob

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RE: Socialism - 2/10/2008 9:59:08 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

In college today, we have plenty of socialists who want everything given to them while they go and smoke pot. Not that I'd claim to understand the subtle differences between various breeds of socialist, though I thought I made it rather clear in the OP that I was using the term loosely.

PS- My apologies if you didn't mean "resist the urge to post under the influence" in a hostile manner. Something about this level of exhaustion that leads me to look at everything a bit more cynically.

It is about 3:30 AM; I've been up doing the work, but I'm done now. It is time for some rest.

You are guilty of taking the American establishment's propaganda hook line and sinker, that everything that is anti-socail is socialist but it ain't.

Consider this. European universal (socialist) healthcare provides for all its people a better health service at a lower price than American private healthcare provides. Social mobility in Europe is far higher than in America and it is highest in the more socialist democracies (OCED). The average standard of education is higher in Europe than America (OCED).

Americans believed the propaganda of the founding fathers that the revoluntionary war was over tax, it wasn't, 99.9% of colonists never paid tax but through the American establishment's constant propaganda, Americans equate freedom with not having to pay tax. Americans accept inferior private services in belief they would pay more for less should they pay for essentials such as health and infrastructure through the tax system, when all the evidence points to the opposite.

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RE: Socialism - 2/10/2008 10:02:33 AM

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Yes, I see what you are on about.

But it could be argued that even the most capitalistic 'institutions' have socialism as a fundamental property.

Nobody works without consideration, and you could consider fisheries industries to be very socialistic in their make-up. There is a perceived value in socializing some things due to, an as yet in some facility, unrealized value.

Ron

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RE: Socialism - 2/10/2008 10:03:53 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

A socialist institution is like universal heathcare; an institution which is socialist in nature.

'Tax for the greater good? Is the US military a socialist institution (assuming tax-payers fund the armed forces over there)?

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RE: Socialism - 2/10/2008 10:08:17 AM

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The American fetish for fascism never ceases to amaze me. But I suppose there is a reason that our nation, like Nazi Germany before it, produces so many BDSM enthusiasts.

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RE: Socialism - 2/10/2008 10:42:47 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesertRat

Indeed...especially when the youngster lives off the labors of others. Also, how do we determine the relative worth of a Pizza Hut worker vs a self-proclaimed genius cloistered in a dorm room or a student apartment? I had a damned tasty pizza just the other night and that was tangible...real. Compare that to the contribution of a...uh...mere student. The pizza people are actually doing something. The "student" is a 'taker', arguably a frivolous social geegaw. Kinda like the fins on a 50s Cadillac.

My point is: this whole "who is worth it?" discussion is bullshit. Benny Hill was a genius. Love those tit jokes! Mozart was a hack...buncha goddamn noise.

The idea of the student is that the student later comes back and contributes. That his studies are part of his work. Now, it's true that if he doesn't do anything with it later, it's wasted and just even more of a drain. Still, where would this world be without higher education? Certainly not with on a message board on computers that use electricity! Nor with those people having the health benefit of modern medicine and denistry. Or in rooms constructed with more modern engineering, or.. well, you get where I'm going with this.

But students do take. They need to be able to justify it with what they do later. It's okay to barrow a million dollars from the bank and not give anything back for a couple of years if you can return a billion afterwards. Still, that's why I ranted about Art majors. Or drop outs. Whose life are they going to save? I suppose I'm not being fair, in some respect. Maybe others will enjoy the art so much that they won't mind the relatively lack of services such as medical care, construction, food, or medicine.

As for the personal shit, it's not "self-proclaimed" genius. But whatever, right?

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RE: Socialism - 2/10/2008 10:48:06 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent
quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

A socialist institution is like universal heathcare; an institution which is socialist in nature.

'Tax for the greater good? Is the US military a socialist institution (assuming tax-payers fund the armed forces over there)?

Yup, the US military is a socialist institution, and the US isn't entirely capitalist, just relatively.

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RE: Socialism - 2/10/2008 10:51:01 AM

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It's cool. I'm not agruing against socialism. I'm arguing against the lazy people who want things handed to them.

If a socialist nation existed, I'm not sure how it'd compel its workers to work without actually forcing them to somehow. Why go the extra mile to be a doctor when you could get just as much by working at something easier and less stressful? :P But commenting on this might make people misunderstand my point as one about socialism and away from what I actually mean.

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RE: Socialism - 2/10/2008 10:54:03 AM

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The real trick is to discover the difference between those that are real socialists, and those that are hangers-on.

Your fellow students for example, smoking pot and looking for a handout, are probably the latter ... correct?

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RE: Socialism - 2/10/2008 10:58:41 AM

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"You are guilty of taking the American establishment's propaganda hook line and sinker, that everything that is anti-socail is socialist but it ain't."

This thread, as I thought I mentioned in the OP, isn't about political socialism. It's about lazy people wanting something. While I'm not opposed to discussing political socialism, my expressed views in the OP and mostly elsewhere don't concern it.

Can you tell me why you accused me of being taken by propaganda?

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RE: Socialism - 2/10/2008 11:00:43 AM

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I'm not sure if I see a difference. Socialism is about a form of government people want, right? Not their motivation for it?

I think socialists can have noble or self-serving intentions, just like other sorts of political stances. No one's not a socialist just because they're also a lazy bastard.

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RE: Socialism - 2/10/2008 11:04:58 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

Yup, the US military is a socialist institution, and the US isn't entirely capitalist, just relatively.

It follows, thus, we agree that we are all prepared to spend other people's tax.

We simply differ on where we think the money is best spent for the greater good: some will argue defence; others will argue health, education etc.

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I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

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RE: Socialism - 2/10/2008 11:09:09 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

It's about lazy people wanting something.

Surely if this were the case, you wouldn't have mentioned Socialism in your post?

In the interests of a balanced view, have a look on the BBC website and you'll see news of our monarchy, associates and asssorted hangers-on swanning around fancy bars in West London at the tax-payers expense. I'll take a wild stab in the dark and offer that, similarly, you'll have people in the US who are rolling in money and wouldn't know the meaning of a hard day's graft.

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I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to CuriousLord)

RE: Socialism - 2/10/2008 11:10:19 AM

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ng,

the difference (at least in american opinion) being that if you are paying not to die from being bombed, it's not a handout, but if you're paying not to die from lack of emergency surgery, it is. personally, i've never understood that rationale myself ;)

respectfully,
annabelle.

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RE: Socialism - 2/10/2008 11:13:54 AM

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Yup. I have no phobia of things containing a socialist nature; it's often needed, as pure capitalism would vioate our fundamentally socialist prospective of life having an instrinsic value (because pure capitalism would allow for murders and such, etc.)

I work under socialism being used only when necessary. Such as for children, I'd like to be socialist with them; health care, food, and education for all the youth works for me. But I'm not for it for adults unless they have some reason why they can't earn it on their own in the capitalist system.

The evil of socialism is that it doesn't drive people to the same ends to produce that a capitalist system does. Which would be fine if people didn't need food, shelter, fuel, electricity, health care, etc. And if someone doesn't work, feeling that they can go without such services, that's fine by me. I just don't want a system in which people can do less than they receive which would be the ultimate downfall of a purely socialist society.

But this is off topic. Mostly, I'm just mad at people who want handouts because they don't want to work for the same thing in the capitalist environment when they're able to. It's not because I like the idea of everyone working for the hell of it, but by people leaching, they're forcing other people to work for them.

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RE: Socialism - 2/10/2008 11:18:11 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: hisannabelle

the difference (at least in american opinion) being that if you are paying not to die from being bombed, it's not a handout, but if you're paying not to die from lack of emergency surgery, it is. personally, i've never understood that rationale myself ;)

How is paying your own bill without the government helping you not paying..?

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RE: Socialism - 2/10/2008 11:19:39 AM

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It's the same here, Annabelle. The conservatives simply mentioned the word tax in order to get elected in the 1980s. People were running 'round like cats on hot coals at the thought of tax increases. Yet, when the Falklands issue came along, it was fine to send a force funded by the taxpayer.

I think it's fair to say the establishment has a vested interest in convincing people to defend/die for their wealth.

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to hisannabelle)

RE: Socialism - 2/10/2008 11:21:01 AM

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greetings curiouslord,

the funny thing is, there are plenty of countries that aren't falling apart that have systems based more on socialism than on capitalism. are we to assume that americans are just naturally lazy? i mean, norway does it. their economy isn't crashing because everyone's quitting their job because they want a free handout. i've never understood that argument. i understand why people don't like the idea of total socialism - but mostly socialism with enough capitalism thrown in to keep from going kaput would make me happy. hell, just being able to pay my bills and not be in more debt than i can ever possibly get out of in three lifetimes because of health and/or education would make me happy. i don't think that's asking for a whole lot. there are countries that manage it - why is the us somehow so lazy that we're incapable of actually guaranteeing a halfway decent standard of living for our citizens?

respectfully,
annabelle.

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a'ishah (the artist formerly known as annabelle)
i have the kind of beauty that moves...

(in reply to CuriousLord)

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