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RE: Socialism - 2/10/2008 12:12:27 PM   
kittinSol


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quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

The evil of socialism is that it doesn't drive people to the same ends to produce that a capitalist system does.  Which would be fine if people didn't need food, shelter, fuel, electricity, health care, etc. 



It always makes me laugh when I hear that production is some kind of be all and end all that will save mankind from evil  .

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RE: Socialism - 2/10/2008 12:17:46 PM   
CuriousLord


Posts: 3911
Joined: 4/3/2007
Status: offline 		Because the production of food doesn't help cure world hunger nor the production of medical services help cure diseases, right?  Production of medical knowledge certainly won't extend our life spans and production of transportation, toys, entertainment, and things such as comfortable beds certainly won't make anyone happier.

When you get right down to it, there's nothing evil about starvation, diseases, short life spans, discomfort, or boredom.  So I suppose you're right.  Laugh away.

I need to stop saying I'm going back and actually do it.

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Profile   Post #: 62
RE: Socialism - 2/10/2008 12:19:07 PM   
luckydog1


Posts: 2736
Joined: 1/16/2006
Status: offline 		Production (of food, shelter, Fuel, and Health care) doesn't save us from "evil", people on my "side" do not think that at all, Kittensol.  It does however save us from Famine, Rain, Freezing to death, and Correctable medical problems.  Which are not "evil" in them selves, but not paticularly good things to undergo. 

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Profile   Post #: 63
RE: Socialism - 2/10/2008 12:25:14 PM   
NorthernGent


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Joined: 7/10/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1

One thing that is evident is that if you criticise Socialism, you will get a similar response as if you had criticised Faith in some sort of Diety. 



'Depends whom you're chatting with; there are extremists in all guises, surely.

quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1

One of the underlying principles of Socialism is that the state is good and just and must be obeyed. 



I don't think so. Socialism is deemed to be a necessary stepping stone on the road to Communism; it aims to smash class structure and enable people to live a harmonious life devoid of said divisive class structure, i.e. Communism and a world where there's no need for a state.

Bear in mind that the state can be deemed to be necessary by those on the right, too - see Machiavelli et al.

Whether you believe this is another matter, but obeying the government is not peculiar to, or fundamental to, Socialism.

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RE: Socialism - 2/10/2008 12:37:50 PM   
NorthernGent


Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline 		That's a very pessimistic view of human nature, CL.

I'm sure you'll appreciate that some of us are more optimistic, and view the history of man as progress towards greater civilisation, improving our understanding of what it means to be free, and, consequently, respecting the freedom and rights of others.

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Profile   Post #: 65
RE: Socialism - 2/10/2008 12:48:18 PM   
luckydog1


Posts: 2736
Joined: 1/16/2006
Status: offline 		Northern Gent, I agree with you 100%, Requiring obeying the Government is not unique to Socialism, It is a natural part of any system of Orginization.  But you sort of missed my point, which was contained in 4 sentances, not just the first of the 4.

"One of the underlying principles of Socialism is that the state is good and just and must be obeyed.  You get assigned a job, and it must be done.  Society requires it.  And it quickly becomes that any Anti Social act becomes an act against the Political economy that feeds people, and is killing people (counter revolutionary). " 

True The Law must be obveyed in any form, but in the Socialist form the law includes a lot of Must do's, as opposed to Don't do's.  If a farmer doesn't do his patriotic duty of working for nothing, he is a threat to the society, and social violence is used on him.

"Socialism is deemed to be a necessary stepping stone on the road to Communism; it aims to smash class structure and enable people to live a harmonious life devoid of said divisive class structure, i.e. Communism and a world where there's no need for a state. "   Which is what I meant, Socialists define thier states as good and Just, with a goal of reorganizing Society.  Those that oppose said reproginzation must be dealt with. 

I do realise there is a whole different discussion as to what a "real Socialist" is.  Lenin called himself a Socialist, as he ran his Socialist state.  It can be argued that he wasn't a "real Socialist", becuase "real socialists" Don't want to kill by the millions to achieve thier goals.  But I do not accept that line of reasoning.  

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RE: Socialism - 2/10/2008 12:57:50 PM   
ShaktiSama


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quote:

ORIGINAL: aidan
Now, I know it's going a  bit off-topic, but this post piqued my interest.
What connection do you see between those two (facism and BDSM enthusiasts)?


Fascism is a political worldview which allows for a very extreme relation of power between the governing and the governed.

BDSM is a set of sexual play behaviors which revolve around relations of power.

There are bound to be a few points of intersection between the two.

Historically, Weimar-era Germany, prior to the rise of fascism, was one of the kinkiest periods of human history ever recorded.  Many prominent fascists, both American and German, were rather kinky fellas behind the scenes--both J. Edgar Hoover and Hermann Goering, for example, were fond of wearing chiffon in their off hours.

Some of the sexual excesses of the men and women who staffed the death camps are well-documented:  Ilse Koch, the "Bitch of Buchenwald", was a particularly notorious example of a psychotic femme domme nymphomaniac who used her position of power and influence to indulge her taste for the finer things in life--including having men worked/tortured men to death for her amusement.  Her daily uniform included a short skirt, riding boots, and a low cut blouse; she was fond of having prisoners beaten if they were caught looking at her.  Several of them died building her a special indoor riding arena where she could take her daily exercise on horseback--the walls were lined with mirrors so that she could admire her form as she went by.

I won't bother recounting any details of her husband's behavior during the same period, 'cause...it'll spoil my dinner.  Suffice it to say he was a twisted sadist so extreme and corrupt that even the Nazi party thought he had gone too far; they executed him on their own.

It must be noted, for the sake of information, that there remains a rather large community of BDSM enthusiasts from all walks of life whose fantasies revolve around the medical experiments, torture and abuse committed by people wearing Nazi uniforms.  I would refer you to "Ilsa:  She-Wolf of the SS" for an example of porn in this vein, and point to the recent conversion of an East german torture facility into a BDSM pleasure palace as an example of how "hot" some people continue to find authoritarian abuse.

Of course, abuse of authority and power-over-others is a constant theme in BDSM fantasies.  The Inquisition is also a fan favorite, and many people remain fond of devices which were invented thousands of years ago to inflict agonizing death on enemies of the state.

Crucifixion would be the example that leaps to mind...

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RE: Socialism - 2/10/2008 1:05:32 PM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline 		We live in a world that produces an unbelievable amount of crap that is destined for the consumer market as we know it, especially here, in the United States.

Have you been out recently  ? Check out your average shop, look at all the ugly plastic trinkets, and weep for the wasted man-hours, the fucked-up educations, the ravaged resources, the shat-on environment... and the moronic consumer who will buy that crap.

We are preparing a world where individuals will be consumers before anything else. If that's not one of the evils of production... I don't know what is.

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Profile   Post #: 68
RE: Socialism - 2/10/2008 1:07:07 PM   
NorthernGent


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Joined: 7/10/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1

"One of the underlying principles of Socialism is that the state is good and just and must be obeyed.  You get assigned a job, and it must be done.  Society requires it.  And it quickly becomes that any Anti Social act becomes an act against the Political economy that feeds people, and is killing people (counter revolutionary). " 



An oft-cited reason for US involvement in Iraq is that Islam is a threat to the American way of life. At it's core, is this action any different to that which you describe in the above? I agree with your point to an extent; Socialism is flawed due to the coercion aspect that underpins it. I'd argue, however, that there are other societies and political systems that will do what it takes to maintain their way of life - yours and mine included - they, too, are flawed.

To illustrate, the '60s in the US and the communist witch hunts - the US government did that which was needed to keep left-wing movements in their place and ensure support for these movements were kept to a minimum. They didn't kill anyone, of course, because the government can't get away with that in countries such as England and the US where we're more aware of our political rights, but they can use other methods to maintain control, e.g. propaganda, spying, harassment etc. In other words, they didn't let two opposing ideas compete; they took the control measures necessary to ensure the socialist ideal was marginalised.

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Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

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Profile   Post #: 69
RE: Socialism - 2/10/2008 1:08:52 PM   
luckydog1


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Status: offline 		So by being anti production you are fighting evil?  You can't actually mean that kittensol.

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Profile   Post #: 70
RE: Socialism - 2/10/2008 1:23:11 PM   
luckydog1


Posts: 2736
Joined: 1/16/2006
Status: offline 		Absolutly Ng, all systems are flawed no doubt or argument from me on that point.  Any system will act to defend it self.  Just glad you could see my point, don't expect you to accept it on my say so. 

Related is that how dissent is handled.  In Cpaitalism Bussiness make money selling paper and paint to make sign and puppets, restarurants, hotels and, night clubs do great bussiness when there is protest.  ISPs and Postal services make money off of the networking, it goes on and on.   People have to travel to get to the rally (someone just made money again).  Its all economic activity that raises the GDP.  And our systems are set up to allow the best ideas to be examined and adopted (people make money in the process).  Abbie Hoffman wrote "steal this book", but the royalties from it have paid for his kid and kids mom to have a great life, as well as people at the publisher (how many editions of that have been printed) and tax money.  Micheal Moore has paid over a million dollars in Tax to the US government from his profitable protest.  Whereas in Socialism protest hurts the economy.  The USSR routinely denied paper and ink to people who were not patriotic and loyal.

Socialism did a lot of marginalising of itself when the truth about the Gulags and Great Leap came out.   There was a lot of denying of what was really going on before that time.  A lot of very well meaning people were shocked to find out what they had been supporting for decades really was.

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RE: Socialism - 2/10/2008 1:39:42 PM   
kittinSol


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quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1

So by being anti production you are fighting evil?  You can't actually mean that kittensol.


You understood me purrrfectly  .

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RE: Socialism - 2/10/2008 1:57:05 PM   
Zensee


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Joined: 9/4/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

The establishment has a vested interest in defending the rights of its citizens from those who would violate them.  This includes invading armies who would violate citizens' rights to life among other things.


Capitalism (as it is now practiced, not in its idealised form) is just Socialism for the ultra rich. I'd rather trust a government of elected officials with the business of running my country than a tiny, secretive cabal of country clubbers.

The Country Club... ah... Now I get it! Damn, them sneaky capitalists, hiding it in plain view.


Z

< Message edited by Zensee -- 2/10/2008 2:08:59 PM >

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RE: Socialism - 2/10/2008 1:58:28 PM   
popeye1250


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Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

Yeah, you're right.

I just know I'd never make a point of anything once I get some sleep.  I ended up in the ER over the summer because I was so insenstive to my own emotional state that the physical syptoms of it backed up and tore me up pretty badly.  As soon as I get some sleep, I'm just going to go back to my studies without the least bit of concern for voicing anything of the sort.

I'm just so tired of seeing Art majors and guys working at Pizza Hut.  It's not the poor people I'm mad at, but the people who don't do anything or spend their time with self-gratifying things.  Like the Art majors.. they don't do it because it'll heal anyone or produce any food, but because they think it's fun.  They want to spend all of their time playing.  Or, the guys who work at Pizza Hut who are just too lazy.  Or the frat boys who will consume their parents' resources in a drunken set of years, then drop out and live off social security/unemployment/other people/whatever.

I have nothing against the children, the people who try, or the handicapped/sick.  It's just the people that readily drain resources doing nothing.  I've known so many of them personally in life, despite being in a place where people are supposed to be hard working.  It's them who I'm mad at.

I'm sorry for the earlier rudeness.


PS-  To everyone, I hope I'm getting my point across.  I'm not mad at everyone who's ever worked at Pizza Hut or been in a frat, or everyone who's ever been down on their luck or tried in earnest but stumbled.  It's the people who expect everyone else to support them that I'm mad at, but it's hard to articulate that at the moment.


And now it seems like every waiter/waitress has some type of "degree" in the "social sciences", sociology, psychology, or political correctness I mean political "science."
I worked with a guy who was a "History Major". Only he was also a football player "first." I asked him one time what the Magna Carta was all about and his reply was; "I don't know, I played football!"
Then we all know the story of the woman who went to school nights and got a "degree" and got off of Welfare.
She gets a job at, .....the Welfare office!
"I'm off of Welfare now!"
Oh?
If you get a "degree" in sociology and don't get a Ph.D in it you're probably going to be,....a waitress/waiter.
Colleges and unis have become "degree factories."
They're *supposed* to be *non profits* but they are now looking at the bottom line and how much money they're "making" or "losing."
Just look at the federal govt, 30 years ago they employed mostly secretaries.
Now all those positions have "titles" and "require" degrees,....to shuffle papers!
And, they make twice as much money for doing the same job!
The "law of supply and demand" *will* kick in.
What is causing all this displacement is these outsourcing deals disguised as "Free Trade" deals.
Everytime you lay off 100,000 blue collar workers you also do away with 30,000 or so white collar workers.That's the cold hard facts!
The current "socialism" that we're seeing is for big companies not for The People.
When some idiot like McCain says that, "those jobs are never comming back" that tells me anyway that he'll just be another "Bush" and continue down the same path to ruin.
All it takes is one stroke of the executive pen to get us out of "Nafta", Gatt" and these other "Outsourcing" deals.
And make no mistake about it, that's what they are, "Outsourcing deals."
The best way to fight these bastards is not to buy any of their products!
Stay out of Walmarts.

Zensee's right, this is just "socialism for the rich."

< Message edited by popeye1250 -- 2/10/2008 2:02:59 PM >

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RE: Socialism - 2/10/2008 1:59:28 PM   
OrionTheWolf


Posts: 7803
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline 		Socialistic methods applied to certain programs can work well. A Socialistic government, in full, usually helps the working class to the extent that everyone becomes the working class, and then a few people get to be the ones in charge. So then the objective would be to be the ones in charge of the government, kind of like the objective of most mega corps now. Government needs to be servants of the people, but in a socialistic regime, there is so much power in government, that you just need to do what you (the people in charge) feel is best for the sheep, uh I mean the people.


quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

When I examine the return on federal tax dollars for Minnesota (and several other states) I would say that there is nothing insane and not working about socialism. 

It appears to work real well.

Ron


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RE: Socialism - 2/10/2008 2:17:39 PM   
Zensee


Posts: 1564
Joined: 9/4/2004
Status: offline 		If it weren't for misappropriation of resources and the machinations of a supprisingly few individuals, there would be enough basics to go around and give everyone a decent standard of living. The amount of human effort lost to greed, corruption and the wars fought to sustain privilege is staggering - far more than what is needed for looking after people.

The culture of scarcity and imminent threat is manufactured. We could all be grasshoppers more of the time and ants less. Trouble is that grasshoppers have spare time to look around and consider the truth about things, and that is dangerous to certain people. Ants are too busy with their noses to the grindstone.


Z.

PS: CL, If you are getting tired this thread maybe think twice next time, before striding into the fire pit with a bucket of gasoline. Thanks for the opportunity to sound off on one of my fave topics though.



< Message edited by Zensee -- 2/10/2008 2:19:16 PM >

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RE: Socialism - 2/10/2008 2:20:51 PM   
OrionTheWolf


Posts: 7803
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline 		I would not say lazy, but mediocre. In a purely Marxist society, what is the realistic reason for someone to do their job better, be more efficient, work longer hours, or put in more than what is required to keep your job?

So you would give up your entire check for food, shelter, health care, and other basics. What do you do in your spare time?

There are some governmental programs that need a socialistic approach, and some that need to be left to the individual. The US was founded on a republic that leans more to fascism than Marxism, with the exception that the state is subject to the collective individuals (at least it is supposed to be).

In a completely fascist government, all authority rests with the state and their are no rights, just privileges given by the state.

Fascism believes in individuals facing life and death decisions, to bring about who they are. Socialism allows the community state, to determine what you are. Neither can survive completely on it's own, and if you were to change how any of the power games are played, most of the same faces would still be in the same positions. The only thing that changes between the various forms of government, is the currency that acquires power.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Benito Mussolini

...Fascism [is] the complete opposite of…Marxian Socialism, the materialist conception of history of human civilization can be explained simply through the conflict of interests among the various social groups and by the change and development in the means and instruments of production.... Fascism, now and always, believes in holiness and in heroism; that is to say, in actions influenced by no economic motive, direct or indirect.



quote:

ORIGINAL: hisannabelle

okay, then i'm still extremely lost as to what some people being lazy has to do with socialism? why bring socialism into the conversation at all? there are lazy people everywhere - that has absolutely zero to do with socialism.    


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When speaking of slaves people always tend to ignore this definition "One who is abjectly subservient to a specified person or influence."

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RE: Socialism - 2/10/2008 2:23:01 PM   
MadRabbit


Posts: 3460
Joined: 8/9/2006
Status: offline 		FR

Next time, just call them "lazy pot smokers" instead of words you have made up definitions to besides the ones in the dictionary and then get annoyed when your misunderstood.

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RE: Socialism - 2/10/2008 2:31:27 PM   
Nats


Posts: 48
Joined: 2/1/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

We live in a world that produces an unbelievable amount of crap that is destined for the consumer market as we know it, especially here, in the United States.

Have you been out recently  ? Check out your average shop, look at all the ugly plastic trinkets, and weep for the wasted man-hours, the fucked-up educations, the ravaged resources, the shat-on environment... and the moronic consumer who will buy that crap.

We are preparing a world where individuals will be consumers before anything else. If that's not one of the evils of production... I don't know what is.


Sorry, I know I'm going off topic from the OP, but here's an interesting link on what you mentioned. (about 20 minutes long if I recall)

http://www.storyofstuff.com

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Profile   Post #: 79
RE: Socialism - 2/10/2008 3:00:53 PM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline 		Thank you, Nats. She dissects the phenomenon intelligibly. Makes it easy to understand for the... non-socialists on the thread  .

PS: where did you find this?

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