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RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear - 2/19/2008 12:17:58 PM   
kittinSol


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quote:

ORIGINAL: jeanie239

How did Israel, ever, in the eyes of any responsible thinking adult, get away with everything they have over the years and still portray themselves to the United States as if they were "a victim". 



I'm not going to fly to a dodgy website because you were too lazy to explain what you meant. So I ask: please explain 1. what exactly Israel 'got away with', and 2. when Israel portrayed itself as being a 'victim'.

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RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear - 2/19/2008 1:50:46 PM   
Quarry


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Status: offline 		"I wonder what the Democrats and Obama plan to do if they are in power and the Iranians decide to bomb Israel."

Isreael has nukes. Iran doesn't. If Iran attacked Israel, within forty minutes there would be no Iran left. It'd be like Sri Lanka launching an attack on the Soviet Union.

As for what Israel has gotten away with... well, there's the occupation of Palestine, for one thing. There's lots of other stuff as well; various invasions of Lebanon, supporting Apartheid era South Africa, etc.

Regarding Israel's claim that they're a "victim..." I don't recall hearing that word specifically, but I can tell you that any attacks, tortures, violations of international law, etc. that Israel committed have been described in the American press as "self defense." But that's not unusual. If you look back through history at all the acts of war committed (by anyone at any time), you're going to find that the aggressors and their supporters always describe them as "self defense." When Hitler invaded Poland, he said he was just defending Germany against the coming Russian invasion. When the US invaded Viet Nam, we said we were defending Vietnam against the communist Vietnamese. Britain had similar excuses for what it did to India, Russia gives the same spiel with respect to Chechnyia (sp?), France in regards to Algeria, and so on and so forth. So it'd be pretty shocking if Israel didn't portray itself as a victim.




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RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear - 2/19/2008 2:21:34 PM   
Muttling


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Quarry

"I wonder what the Democrats and Obama plan to do if they are in power and the Iranians decide to bomb Israel."

Isreael has nukes. Iran doesn't. If Iran attacked Israel, within forty minutes there would be no Iran left. It'd be like Sri Lanka launching an attack on the Soviet Union.

As for what Israel has gotten away with... well, there's the occupation of Palestine, for one thing. There's lots of other stuff as well; various invasions of Lebanon, supporting Apartheid era South Africa, etc.

Regarding Israel's claim that they're a "victim..." I don't recall hearing that word specifically, but I can tell you that any attacks, tortures, violations of international law, etc. that Israel committed have been described in the American press as "self defense." But that's not unusual. If you look back through history at all the acts of war committed (by anyone at any time), you're going to find that the aggressors and their supporters always describe them as "self defense." When Hitler invaded Poland, he said he was just defending Germany against the coming Russian invasion. When the US invaded Viet Nam, we said we were defending Vietnam against the communist Vietnamese. Britain had similar excuses for what it did to India, Russia gives the same spiel with respect to Chechnyia (sp?), France in regards to Algeria, and so on and so forth. So it'd be pretty shocking if Israel didn't portray itself as a victim.







Iran is not believed to have nukes at this time, but they are known to have a very advanced chemical and biological weapons program along with experience having used such weapons.  (Read up on the Iran-Iraq war if you desire details.)

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RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear - 2/19/2008 3:08:41 PM   
DomKen


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Status: offline 		I feel bad for the palestinains, I really do. But they have been on the losing side of each and every attack on Israel.

They had a country of their own on May 14, 1948 but the Arab league conquered it and parceled it out Jordan and Egypt while attacking Israel. 711,00 arabs fled their homes inside Israel proper but 850,000 Jews lost their homes in Arab League nations during and after the war due to Arab League sanctioned discrimination and abuse. Strangely Arab government to this day keep the descendants of the arab refugees in ghettos stylized as refugee camps while Israel has opened its borders to the Jewish refugees and integrated them into its society.

From 1948 until 1967 Jews could not pray at the Western Wall or even touch it. Jordan simply refused Jews access to it. This of course contrasts rather strangely with the situation since 1967 where the Dome of the Rock has been accessible to Mulsims at virtually all time, the Jordanians who administered it for a lot of the intervening years put in place radical imans who were the instigators of many riots after friday prayers at the Dome. The Palestinian Organization has been doing the same thing since their takeover of management of the mosque with the same results

In 1967 the Arab nations prepared to attack and tried to blockade Israel. Israel premptively struck and handily defeated the combined armies arrayed against it. Surprising only people who knew nothing of the region Egypt only wanted the Sinai back and flat refused to reoccupy the Gaza Strip while Jordan gladly washed its hands of the West Bank. Syria alone wants its occupied territory back, territory it had used for decades to fire artillery into Israel.

After 1967 the era of palestinian terror began and first really burst onto the world stage at the 72 Munich Olypmics.

Then in 1973, on Judaism's holiest holiday, Egypt and Syria once again attacked Israel and once again were soundly defeated. A few year slater Egypt negotiated peace with Israel and happily abandoned Gaza permanently.

Since then Israel has pursued peace with its neighbors and tried to live beside the palestinains. Despite random murder bombings and some of the ugliest anti semitism imaginable they've even tried to make peace with the PLO and to give the palestinian people some sovereignity. To no student of history's surprise they've been met with violence and more vile rhetoric.

Only a people so touched by genocide and forced expulsions could be expected to have not cleared out Gaza and the West Bank and sent the former inhabitants to Syria. I guarantee that if the US found itself in that situation mass expulsion is the least of what could be expected.

Israel is of course not blameless but anyone who has studied the historical record comes away shocked by how much restraint the Israelis have shown.

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RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear - 2/19/2008 3:10:28 PM   
kittinSol


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Israel is of course not blameless but anyone who has studied the historical record comes away shocked by how much restraint the Israelis have shown.



Quite.

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RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear - 2/19/2008 3:15:04 PM   
Slavehandsome


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Status: offline 		Any American mentioning Israel's issues with the Egyptians, should look up the story of the USS Liberty incident in 1967.  "Israel is of course not blameless but anyone who has studied the historical record comes away shocked by how much restraint the Israelis have shown." 
"I want that Goddamn ship on the bottom" - President Lyndon Baines Johnson, 1967.


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RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear - 2/19/2008 3:29:25 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Slavehandsome

Any American mentioning Israel's issues with the Egyptians, should look up the story of the USS Liberty incident in 1967.  "Israel is of course not blameless but anyone who has studied the historical record comes away shocked by how much restraint the Israelis have shown." 
"I want that Goddamn ship on the bottom" - President Lyndon Baines Johnson, 1967.

You're not keeping up. Last year the NSA released tapes of radio intercepts of Iraeli aircraft chatter from during and after the attack establishing the fact that this was an accident occuring during the Six Day War. Accidents happen especially in war.

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RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear - 2/19/2008 3:29:32 PM   
stella41b


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

quote:

ORIGINAL: jeanie239

How did Israel, ever, in the eyes of any responsible thinking adult, get away with everything they have over the years and still portray themselves to the United States as if they were "a victim". 



I'm not going to fly to a dodgy website because you were too lazy to explain what you meant. So I ask: please explain 1. what exactly Israel 'got away with', and 2. when Israel portrayed itself as being a 'victim'.


1. Go read up about the Warsaw Uprising in 1944 especially the bit when the Red Army sat and waited at Radzymin and advanced no further, and read up on what the Nazis did to the residents of Warsaw. Then compare it to what the Palestinians have been through.

2. So have you never heard of The Shoah, the Hebrew term for the Holocaust? What edition of the news are you watching? You mean to say you've never worked out why the Palestinians carry out 'terrorist attacks' but the Israelis 'military action'? These are bombs being dropped and they kill people, so I for one don't see much difference here.

I'm actually amazed at people here. We're talking about Iran, not Iraq. Iran is the only Shiite Muslim state in the world. Better not think about attacking Iran. Go figure.

Maybe if Israel stopped trying to decimate Palestine then Iran and Syria might not be so militant.

For the hard of thinking.

I have a Rastafarian neighbour. Let's assume that each time he comes out of his apartment I batter him around the head with a baseball bat. Why? Because I don't want him living next to me. Only he doesn't like me much, and even though I keep swinging that baseball bat, he keeps headbutting it. This is my version anyway.

Now it would be understandable, would it not, for my other neighbours to feel hostile towards me? Wouldn't they want to hit me with a baseball bat? Maybe if I stopped hitting my neighbour round the head with a baseball bat my other neighbours would feel less hostile towards me.

Only in reality my neighbours would call the police and I would be arrested. Action would be taken to stop me battering my neighbour with a baseball bat.

However in reality while Israel is decimating Palestine the international community is looking the other way.

I wonder why.

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RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear - 2/19/2008 3:33:45 PM   
kittinSol


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quote:

ORIGINAL: stella41b

2. So have you never heard of The Shoah, the Hebrew term for the Holocaust? What edition of the news are you watching? You mean to say you've never worked out why the Palestinians carry out 'terrorist attacks' but the Israelis 'military action'? These are bombs being dropped and they kill people, so I for one don't see much difference here.



There's a terrible irony that you are asking me the above questions, stella.

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RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear - 2/19/2008 3:41:58 PM   
Slavehandsome


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Status: offline 		Accidents don't happen for 2 days, during which time, said "accidents" don't involve the US President calling off reinforcements.  Much less the idea that the captain of that ship was given the Congressional Medal Of Honor yet told he couldn't tell anybody about it.  Had it been an "accident", the US President would have told the Admiral of the Mediterranean Fleet to go ahead and dispatch reinforcements, while somebody notified Israel to call them off.  However, that wasn't the plan.  The plan was to draw the United States into that conflict on behalf of Israel, much like we're seeing today in the Middle East.  American blood for Israeli profit. 

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RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear - 2/19/2008 4:16:55 PM   
stella41b


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From: SW London (UK)
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

quote:

ORIGINAL: stella41b

2. So have you never heard of The Shoah, the Hebrew term for the Holocaust? What edition of the news are you watching? You mean to say you've never worked out why the Palestinians carry out 'terrorist attacks' but the Israelis 'military action'? These are bombs being dropped and they kill people, so I for one don't see much difference here.



There's a terrible irony that you are asking me the above questions, stella.


I'm sorry if it touched somewhere sensitive, this isn't ever my intention. I am all for remembering the Holocaust, in fact I'd really like it to go that one step further, that this world somehow learns from it and learns that lesson well.

I wrote what I did knowing that the Holocaust is just the tip of the iceberg... just five years from centuries of persecution of the Jews in Europe, from the many things people no longer speak about, events such as Kielce 1946, the Tulipan death camp in central Poland, the pogroms of Alexander the Great in Russia. Then there is March 1968 and the enforced expulsion of Jews from Polish soil.

Sobibor, Majdanek, I have been there, I spent two years living on the southern perimeter of the Warsaw Ghetto, my apartment block still showing the pockmarks of shells, I have walked The Tube at Treblinka, stood at the edge of the pit, and seen the rocks of the mass graves.

But you know, the Middle East, this is little more than an extension of the Second World War.

There can be no justification for what the Israelis are doing to the Palestinians, but there can also be no justification for Iran and Syria to threaten Israel.

There's enough space for everyone to live in this world and enough resources to go round, and the sooner everyone accepts this the better it will be for the world and everyone in it.

What's the point of waiting for another Messiah? He probably won't be listened to or believed anyway and will probably end up being shot or killed.

This wasn't a prediction in the Bible you know, it was a warning. Go back and read it properly.

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RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear - 2/19/2008 5:13:57 PM   
Griswold


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quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611

"The cancerous growth Israel will soon disappear," Iran's Revolutionary Guards Corps commander Muhammad Ali Jafari wrote to Hizbullah leader Sheikh Hassan Nasrallah, the FARS news agency reported Monday.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1203283465824&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

I wonder what the Democrats and Obama plan to do if they are in power and the Iranians decide to bomb Israel.


Obama's already stated very clearly what he wants to do with Iran and President Abachmachmoodishadimantifahdkohmeniabasistan.....

He's going to invite him to the White House for discussions.

(Dat is exactly what da man sayud).

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RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear - 2/19/2008 5:36:28 PM   
Real0ne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Slavehandsome

Any American mentioning Israel's issues with the Egyptians, should look up the story of the USS Liberty incident in 1967.  "Israel is of course not blameless but anyone who has studied the historical record comes away shocked by how much restraint the Israelis have shown." 
"I want that Goddamn ship on the bottom" - President Lyndon Baines Johnson, 1967.

You're not keeping up. Last year the NSA released tapes of radio intercepts of Iraeli aircraft chatter from during and after the attack establishing the fact that this was an accident occuring during the Six Day War. Accidents happen especially in war.


DOnt forget about Johnsons famous line to macnamera:

"I want that god damn boat on the bottom"

It worked so good in the gulf of tonkin may as well go for a 2fer!

Then Of course there is a problem with that aircraft carrier that was told to stand down and not scramble any fighters.

Little things like that.


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RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear - 2/19/2008 6:56:23 PM   
luckydog1


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Status: offline 		"For the hard of thinking.   Yes let's think about this
I have a Rastafarian neighbour. Let's assume that each time he comes out of his apartment I batter him around the head with a baseball bat. Why? Because I don't want him living next to me. Only he doesn't like me much, and even though I keep swinging that baseball bat, he keeps headbutting it. This is my version anyway.  So we have a black person buying a house and moving into a white neighboorhood ....compare that to Jews moving into an arab neighborhood.   And yeah they bought every piece of land before the Creation of Isreal.  And they were regularly attacked , hit with bats, as the analogy goes. 

Now it would be understandable, would it not, for my other neighbours to feel hostile towards me? You would think so, but the arab neighbors thought it was a good idea to join in, and brought thier own bats to help kick the Jew out.  Wouldn't they want to hit me with a baseball bat? In a better world I suppose, but in reality they came in mobs trying to burn down the Rastas house.  Maybe if I stopped hitting my neighbour round the head with a baseball bat my other neighbours would feel less hostile towards me.  But the nieghbors are very happy with the situations, and keep sending you more bats.   They even increase thier own power and wealth by keeping the bats swinging, while the children of the bat swingers suffer.   They pay people to kill anyone who wants to stop swinging the bats.

Only in reality my neighbours would call the police and I would be arrested. Action would be taken to stop me battering my neighbour with a baseball bat. Again in a perfect world, but in this one the arab neighbors have a voice on the City hall, so the law doesn't get involved.  Plus they increase their power and wealth by keeping the bats swinging.

However in reality while Israel is decimating Palestine the international community is looking the other way. "  Nope in reality Isreal could decimate the Palestinains (and vaporise Cairo, Bhagdad, Tripoli, Mecca, Damascus, and Tehran) in an afternoon, and they have had that power for decades.  But have instead tried time and again to make peace.
 
Thats reality......

< Message edited by luckydog1 -- 2/19/2008 7:01:48 PM >

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RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear - 2/19/2008 7:04:48 PM   
kittinSol


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Status: offline 		Edited - reply was hasty and unfair.

< Message edited by kittinSol -- 2/19/2008 7:28:49 PM >

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RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear - 2/19/2008 7:23:27 PM   
caitlyn


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Status: offline 		Although a pity he can't make his point without insulting large numbers of people, Meatcleaver is essentually correct. This is clearly harsh words, designed to reach the target audience, not unlike what we have in western politics. The Iranian military is not capable of operations against a nation with which it does not share a land border.

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RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear - 2/19/2008 9:37:48 PM   
Muttling


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quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

Although a pity he can't make his point without insulting large numbers of people, Meatcleaver is essentually correct. This is clearly harsh words, designed to reach the target audience, not unlike what we have in western politics. The Iranian military is not capable of operations against a nation with which it does not share a land border.



Actually, that it QUITE incorrect.

Iran has several ballistic missiles that are capable of ranges beyond 2000 km (the flight distance from Iran to Israel) and capable of conventional, biological, or chemical payloads.  They are theoretically nuclear capable, but it's very unlikley for Iran to do that in the forseeable future as warhead miniaturization technology is very advanced tech.  Here's a link that summarizes Iran's ballistic missiles:

http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/iran/missile/


Iran also has 3 Russian made Kilo class submarines that could engage Israeli ports through mines or torpedos.   (Although a torpedo engagement is unlikely as the Israeli naval technology is superior.)


One of Iran's most recent purchases was 250 long range fighter-bombers and 20 refueling aircraft which would put Isreal in easy striking distance of Iran's air force.   To the best of my knowledge, they are yet to have taken delivery on the aircraft.  Here's a link to that one:

http://www.navytimes.com/news/2007/07/navy_iran_fighters_070730w/


Finally, Iran can attack by proxy through funding of terrorist groups such as Hezbolla.   Just look to the recent abduction of the Israeli soldiers and the Iranian made weapons that Hezbolla used during the ensuing battles.  Here's a link discussing this aspect:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2006/08/15/wmid15.xml







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RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear - 2/19/2008 10:15:34 PM   
Zensee


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

I hope they set back and let Israel use the final solution...some time... someone has to win to end the madness...I say let them fight it out and form the new middle east.

Butch


Surely I can't be the only person who thought, "Irony, yes. But was it intentional?"


Z.


PS: There's nothing like a nuclear bomb to breathe reason into a difficult situation.


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RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear - 2/19/2008 11:32:20 PM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Muttling

quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

Although a pity he can't make his point without insulting large numbers of people, Meatcleaver is essentually correct. This is clearly harsh words, designed to reach the target audience, not unlike what we have in western politics. The Iranian military is not capable of operations against a nation with which it does not share a land border.



Actually, that it QUITE incorrect.

Iran has several ballistic missiles that are capable of ranges beyond 2000 km (the flight distance from Iran to Israel) and capable of conventional, biological, or chemical payloads.  They are theoretically nuclear capable, but it's very unlikley for Iran to do that in the forseeable future as warhead miniaturization technology is very advanced tech.  Here's a link that summarizes Iran's ballistic missiles:

http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/iran/missile/


Iran also has 3 Russian made Kilo class submarines that could engage Israeli ports through mines or torpedos.   (Although a torpedo engagement is unlikely as the Israeli naval technology is superior.)


One of Iran's most recent purchases was 250 long range fighter-bombers and 20 refueling aircraft which would put Isreal in easy striking distance of Iran's air force.   To the best of my knowledge, they are yet to have taken delivery on the aircraft.  Here's a link to that one:

http://www.navytimes.com/news/2007/07/navy_iran_fighters_070730w/


Finally, Iran can attack by proxy through funding of terrorist groups such as Hezbolla.   Just look to the recent abduction of the Israeli soldiers and the Iranian made weapons that Hezbolla used during the ensuing battles.  Here's a link discussing this aspect:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2006/08/15/wmid15.xml



In theory anyone can attack anyone, Malta can attack the USA but in reality, an attack by Iran on Israel would not even lead to a pyric victory but a sound defeat. The US is itching to bomb the fuck out of Iran, it just can't get over being kicked out of Iran in '79 (The US ought to really get over it) and would do whatever to ensure an Israeli victory like it does now, though it would be doubtful they would be needed.

As for Hezbollah, that group are not Iranian backed terrorists, they were formed in response to the Israeli invasion of Lebanon and are resistance fighters. Without Israeli aggression, they wouldn't exist. Yeah, they now get some material support from Iran but the US funds freedom fighters/terrorists themselves. It's just a matter of whose side they are on as to whether one group are freedom fighters and another terrorists. The west really has no moral high ground on this as the west backed zionist terrorism in the setting up of Israel. Before western interference (Balfour backing zionism and so terrorism), the Jews and Arabs in the area got on just fine.

As for quoting The Dailly Telegraph, why not just get a quote from the Israeli government, the two are more or less the same.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 2/19/2008 11:37:54 PM >

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RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear - 2/20/2008 4:41:15 AM   
kittinSol


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zensee

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

I hope they set back and let Israel use the final solution...some time... someone has to win to end the madness...I say let them fight it out and form the new middle east.

Butch


Surely I can't be the only person who thought, "Irony, yes. But was it intentional?"


Z.


PS: There's nothing like a nuclear bomb to breathe reason into a difficult situation.



You weren't alone  .

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