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RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear - 2/20/2008 9:12:05 AM

Owner59

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Well put and also reasonable..

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RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear - 2/20/2008 9:12:20 AM

BOUNTYHUNTER

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

In the end, Israel is there to stay, and the inflammatory rhetoric of those who scream for its destruction serves no purpose other than to perpetrate the cycle of violence.

It has always baffled me that it is those who deny its existence that scream for Israel's annihilation.

Yes shes there to stay,as long as the US and europe remains loyal friends

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RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear - 2/20/2008 9:15:11 AM

kittinSol

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Cheers :-) .

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RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear - 2/20/2008 9:21:08 AM

meatcleaver

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BOUNTYHUNTER

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

In the end, Israel is there to stay, and the inflammatory rhetoric of those who scream for its destruction serves no purpose other than to perpetrate the cycle of violence.

It has always baffled me that it is those who deny its existence that scream for Israel's annihilation.

Yes shes there to stay,as long as the US and europe remains loyal friends

Britain caused this mess through the Balfour agreement in which Britain chose sides and chose the side of extremists and terrorists., before that the Arabs and Jews in the area were good neighbours. The idea that the real cause of this situation is the intolerant Arabs is a revision of history and a refusal to see the truth. Balfour was a religious nut, akin to modern day Christian fundementalists in America. He knew more about the Bible than he did of British history and if he reflected for one moment on his policy of allowing alien immigration into the area would mean, he would have realised he was setting up a conflict that would take decades if not a century to solve. The west created the extremism in the middle east and the very pretence that the west is being reasonable in this situation is totally and utterly disingenuous. Where one goes from here is anyone's guess but an attempt by the west (Britain no longer having the power on its own) to find a just solution is a moral obligation, though I doubt the west has the backbone to be moral, it never has before and I don't see why that should change now.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 2/20/2008 9:25:39 AM >

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RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear - 2/20/2008 9:41:54 AM

Alumbrado

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quote:

Palestinians can never have freedom until the settlers are removed.

Both you and jeanie are glossing over the fact that the Israeli government and Zionists have enormous propaganda leverage from the stated goal of Palestinian and other leaders to kill all the Jews on the face of the earth, coupled with attempts to do so in the past.

This has never been about returning a small number of Palestinians to their native soil. This is always first and foremost, about killing Jews, and killing those who want to kill Jews, and then killing those who want to kill the Jew killers....and so on ad nauseum...

< Message edited by Alumbrado -- 2/20/2008 9:42:34 AM >

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RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear - 2/20/2008 9:53:19 AM

kittinSol

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Why did you address this post to me?

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RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear - 2/20/2008 10:00:22 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

....and so on ad nauseum...

nauseam, as in nausea..........I shall pick out your sanbenito.

Cardinal Ximenez, Grand Inquisitor.

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RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear - 2/20/2008 11:12:40 AM

luckydog1

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Part of what never really gets discussed is what the whole Palestinian issue has meant in the larger Mid East. After the Ottomans got toasted in WW1 the arabs got occupiyed and split up. Not exactly the same, but before that and for hundreds of years, they lived in a situation analagous ot the USA. A huge country with travel trade and education, common language. Every Arab with any common sense wants to recreate that. None of these little countries existed as countries. Thier emipre was destroyed, occupyied and split up. The concept of Pan Arabism was formed

Syrain Iraqis, Egyptians, Suadis, never gave a rats ass about Palestine or the people living there. It was the Mississippi of the ie Empire. But when Isreal was created, it became the rallying point. Which ever Arab Leader managed to lead the destruction of Isreal, pulls the sword out of the stone as it were. That leader would become the new Caliph, by divine right. the new Saladin. But none of the Arab leaders is willing to allow any other to win. That has been the damn problem all along. From the Get go, the Palestinian resistance has been trained, funded, and controled (though some have gone renegade), by opposing groups. I know I will get flamed and yelled at for this, but go study the history of the PLO and its splinter groups. Inter Palestinian fighting has killed just as many Palestininas as Isreal has. The people were kept locked in camps under terrible conditions, by the Arabs. Arab Leaders get so much benefit by working this issue it is sick. Saddam was paying per bombing in Palestine trying to derail the Peace agreements Clinton and Norway set up.

By the mid 80s Arrafat had pretty much siezed controll. The current situation has evolved to Hezbollah, which is shiite trained and created, and Fatah Arrafats people and Hamas on the Sunni side.

The Sunnis will never let the Shiites take Jerusalem.
The Shiites will not allow the Sunnis to get controll either.

The reason the Palestinans are suffering is because of larger Arab Politics. That the Palestinians were not allowed to use Ghandian tactics, was decided by Men with Guns covering thier faces, working for Governments in Riddyah, Cairo, Damasucus, Tripoli, and Moscow. And thousands were killed, who didn't want to join the violent resistance. Palestinians are considered fodder by thier own leaders and friends.

As was pointed out earlier, in 1948, every inch of the West bank, Gaza, Golan, and half of Jerusalem was in Arab hands. Not a single Palestinian had become a refugee. There was no reason for any of it, except for Pan Arab Politics

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RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear - 2/20/2008 11:15:14 AM

mnottertail

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Arafat was in control of that way of doing business long before Fidel could grow a beard or was old enough to smoke.

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RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear - 2/20/2008 11:33:00 AM

meatcleaver

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

quote:

Palestinians can never have freedom until the settlers are removed.

Both you and jeanie are glossing over the fact that the Israeli government and Zionists have enormous propaganda leverage from the stated goal of Palestinian and other leaders to kill all the Jews on the face of the earth, coupled with attempts to do so in the past.

This has never been about returning a small number of Palestinians to their native soil. This is always first and foremost, about killing Jews, and killing those who want to kill Jews, and then killing those who want to kill the Jew killers....and so on ad nauseum...

Alumbrado, I suggest you read the history of the conflict and you will themn see you talk nonsense.

Before Balfour, Arabs and Jews got on very well together in Trans-Jordania, the majority of each group not only speaking each others language but were neighbours with each other and had very much a shared experience. It was through Balfour that the British created the conflict by backing the zionists and agreeing to Jewish immigration, mainly from Eastern Europe and Russia. This influx of aliens (Jewish people from outside the region) brought into the area foreign customs and a disregard for local customs, this was accompanied by foreign Jews buying up land. Balfour in the 1920s made a tour of the area like a latter day messiah and was greeted by the immigrant Jews as such while his tour increased the fear of the indigenous Arabs that their land would be stolen. Later British governments, particualrly the war government realized what Balfour had done and tried to reverse the policy by stopping Jewish immogration into Trans-Jordania. By that time it was too late, neither side trusted the British and like all governments that make pacts with extremist and terrorist organisations, ended up in conflict with zionist terrorist groups. The western world (led by America) pressurised Britain into allowing immigration from post WWII Europe and at the end of its mandate Britain basically cut and run, while the newly formed UN agreed to the partition of Trans-Jordania but ignored the consequences. The consequences being, etnic cleansing by the zionists from large areas of the west bank. It is largely said that surrounding Arab states told the Arabs of the west bank to leave their homes while they annihilated the new Israel. However, the majority of the resident Arabs were warned by Britain to leave because they should expect trouble from the zionists. It is estimated that 750,000 Arabs were ethnically cleansed by the zionists, thousands left because they were warned by Britain to get out and thousands by the Arabs. Since Britain had control over the media, one can assume the a fair amount of the Arabs fled because of Britain's warnings. The British foreign minister at the time said that the Arabs of the region have suffered a great injustice so it was widely recgnized at the time that the Arabs were victims of both the zionists and western policies in the region, no doubt much of western policy being based on the feeling of collective guilt of the genocide of Jews in Europe. However, the Arab victims were not guilty of the genocide, it was Europeans. The Arabs of the region have only been trying to get justice ever since and the conflict has carried on because the west has continued to rub Arab faces in the dirt by blaming the Arabs for the conflict while arming the zionist state that stole their land. It was the Israelis along with the British and French that invaded Egypt in 1956. It was the Israelis with a nod and a wink from the US that started the 1967 war when most of the lands now in dispute where occupied.

However, carry on with your prejudiced view, you obviously know very little about the history of the conflict.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 2/20/2008 11:35:32 AM >

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RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear - 2/20/2008 11:33:17 AM

luckydog1

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Yeah Mnot, there was a lot of factional fighting against Arafat up untill the early 80s. Arafat was the guy who got the Soviets to set him up, so a lot of Europoen, especially of the left wing variety, supported him also.

Though to be honest he did do a lot of organising (soviet training and saudi funding) to help get the resistance going, and he was the Big Dog from the get go. Ever read about how his fammilly lives in France? How much money he had stashed in Banks around the world? His kids didn't drop out of school to support the first Infantada. OF course most of a generation of Palestinian kids were Forced to quit School for about 4 years IIRC in the 80s. Children who violated the strike were Collabarators, and some were publically hanged. Crazy Coincidince, how now they have a generation of young adults willing to be suicide bombers....Crazy coincidince

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RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear - 2/20/2008 11:38:32 AM

meatcleaver

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quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1

Yeah Mnot, there was a lot of factional fighting against Arafat up untill the early 80s. Arafat was the guy who got the Soviets to set him up, so a lot of Europoen, especially of the left wing variety, supported him also.

Though to be honest he did do a lot of organising (soviet training and saudi funding) to help get the resistance going, and he was the Big Dog from the get go. Ever read about how his fammilly lives in France? How much money he had stashed in Banks around the world? His kids didn't drop out of school to support the first Infantada. OF course most of a generation of Palestinian kids were Forced to quit School for about 4 years IIRC in the 80s. Children who violated the strike were Collabarators, and some were publically hanged. Crazy Coincidince, how now they have a generation of young adults willing to be suicide bombers....Crazy coincidince

Go back to the beginning of the conflict lucky, I will then start to take what you have to say seriously. You cherry pick from the time after the Palestinians lost faith in the international community doing anything about the injustices commited against them.

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RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear - 2/20/2008 11:52:18 AM

Muttling

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quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

quote:

ORIGINAL: Muttling
Actually, that it QUITE incorrect.

Your chart does not indicate that Israel is in range of current delivery systems, only potential ones. Everyone is potentially in range of everyone else's "potential" systems.

The Kilo is a diesel-electric used mostly for anti-shipping ... and being phased out by the Russians. They might as well have saved time and just purchased coffins.

Iran has not "purchased" any Su-30 fighters, or tankers, only discussed the purchase of them. Your statement is incorrect. If they paid for them today (questionable), how long would it take to make them a going concern, given the training of pilots and air crews? Five years perhaps? How do you suppose those green Iranian pilots will stack up against the Israeli air force? By the way ... where were they planning on doing this mid-air refueling?

I have no idea what the agenda is, making Iran such a powerhouse enemy. Actually I do know ... Iran comes in handy on both sides.

We will simply have to disagree on parts of these subjects.

Sorry for linking an old report, I couldn't find a terribly recent one on line but here's a State Department report discussing the Shahab 3 which is an operational Iranian weapon system and is believed to have the range to hit Israel.

http://fpc.state.gov/documents/organization/39332.pdf

On the subject of the Russian fighters, the Russians confirmed that the agreement was in place and that was the last I heard of it.   The money hasn't exchanged hands and the aircraft nor supporting parts, training, etc. have been delivered but they are moving that way.   There's a LOT of pressure being put on Russia to not go through with it, but we see how well that worked with the heavy water reactors they're building for the Iranians.

As for Hezbolla (in response to another poster), they are to Iran as the Skin Heads were to the KKK.   They are not controlled by Iran or Syria, but the Muzahadien (sp?) were not controlled by the U.S. and the U.K. during the Russian invasion of Afghanistan. None the less, we fought a proxy war against the Russians by propping up the Muzahadien and helping them to achieve their goals.   The Iranians are doing the same with Hezbolla.

When a country spends YEARS building thier offensive weapons capability and the reach of their military forces while claiming Isreal shouldn't even exist and will soon be wiped off the face of the earth it is foolish to play "hear no evil, see no evil".   How long does one listen to the banter and watch the accumulation of weapons before they stop to ask why?

On a note of clarification, I'm not an advocate of the U.S. being the world's policeman and going pre-emptive on Iran.   I am saying that it's a very worrisome subject that needs to be kept at the forefront of the world community's attention.

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RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear - 2/20/2008 12:05:08 PM

Aubre

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Let's say that the world tells the Muslims "We will do nothing to stop you if you take back Israel." Let's say that the Muslims attack Israel with overwhelming conventional firepower, and Israel uses restraint, doesn't nuke anyone and surrenders. What do you think will happen to all the Jews who live in Israel? Do we dare imagine that they will be allowed to live?

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RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear - 2/20/2008 12:29:18 PM

meatcleaver

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aubre

Let's say that the world tells the Muslims "We will do nothing to stop you if you take back Israel." Let's say that the Muslims attack Israel with overwhelming conventional firepower, and Israel uses restraint, doesn't nuke anyone and surrenders. What do you think will happen to all the Jews who live in Israel? Do we dare imagine that they will be allowed to live?

Since the Iranians haven't killed off the Jews in Iran, one might guess they won't kill them off at all. Maybe the American media don't report what Iran actually says, it seems like they don't by the reaction of most Americans. Iran says its argument is with the western backed zionist state, not with ordinary Jews.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 2/20/2008 12:30:15 PM >

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RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear - 2/20/2008 2:12:58 PM

Alumbrado

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ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Why did you address this post to me?

Why did you post "Palestinians can never have freedom until the settlers are removed." using the name Reality Licks?

Since you've played the tired old game of pretending to be naive about the way QuickReply puts names in the corner, and you've been set straight time and again that it has nothing to do with whom the post was addressed to, I know you aren't so deperate for attention that you are faking not knowing about that now, are you?

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RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear - 2/20/2008 3:01:22 PM

kittinSol

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Bollocks: go back, and you will see that RealLicks posted this line about the settlers, and that I replied to him directly, NOT using fast reply.

Why you are being so aggressive (for utterly no reason) is beyond me. Must be the moon eclipse, aye?

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RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear - 2/20/2008 7:10:17 PM

Sinergy

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ORIGINAL: thickerdenwater

israel is one of our only real allies.

Feel free to clarify why people in the United States are told that Isreal is considered a security threat when they are getting their security briefing.

With allies like that who needs enemies?

Sinergy

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RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear - 2/20/2008 10:04:43 PM

knees2you

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Prophacy says No, Nada, never.

As Always, ant

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RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear - 2/20/2008 10:47:22 PM

Alumbrado

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Bollocks: go back, and you will see that RealLicks posted this line about the settlers, and that I replied to him directly, NOT using fast reply.

Why you are being so aggressive (for utterly no reason) is beyond me. Must be the moon eclipse, aye?

What are you talking about? I replied to RL quoting him directly... nothng was said about any of your posts.
You claimed that it was meant for you, and now you claim that you were the one doing the replying to RL? Riiiight.

If you disagree with my point, back it up with some facts, instead of playing your usual 'Look at me, I can PAPD derail every thread by pretending to not understand!!!!' game.

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