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RE: This just makes Me so sad - 3/1/2008 3:33:15 AM

LadyEllen

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Well thanks!

Given my post being accurate then, the problem is how do we change the nature of our troops to be defined by inclusion rather than exclusion?

I see this as one of the great challenges we have before us as societies and nations; how, when we wish to celebrate individuality, do we maintain the collective?

E

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RE: This just makes Me so sad - 3/1/2008 3:37:47 AM

IrishMist

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

Well thanks!

Given my post being accurate then, the problem is how do we change the nature of our troops to be defined by inclusion rather than exclusion?

I see this as one of the great challenges we have before us as societies and nations; how, when we wish to celebrate individuality, do we maintain the collective?

E

You know Miss Ellen, that is a very good question and one that on the 'whole in general' sense, I can not answer. With my family, it was simply a matter of being very open with them about things; allowing them to make their own choices, good and bad; and then forcing them to stand by and take responsibility for those choices. I will not say it was easy; but in the end, it worked to the advantage in the sense that I was lucky enough to have kids that look at people as unique individuals; and not as labels that society says are good or bad.

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RE: This just makes Me so sad - 3/1/2008 3:41:24 AM

lazarus1983

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Foititis

What disturbs me is why there is such a large amount of open violence against young gay males. Why is it young men feel that their masculinity is so threatened by having a gay person attracted to them? Personally I'd seen it as a great compliment, guess you just can't get past those wholesome family 'values' can you?

My pet theory is that every male in the world is so utterly convinced that he's "God's Gift" and that every woman in the world would want to mate with him, that this gets applied too in the case of gay males; obviously the gay male wants to mate with him, because after all he's so damned irresistible!

Obviously, the impression of himself the male has, is at variance with the opinions of others. This is one of the factors which plays a part in the fact that its women who choose men, not the other way around - and I dont know, but maybe its the same for gay men?

E

Every male in the world? I do hope you're joking with such a ridiculous sweeping generalization.

In any case, I think a lot of the friction between straight males and gay males comes from straight males not being around gay males, and thus being uncomfortable. I've had more than a couple gay males come on to me, and I've politely brushed them off, just as I would the occasional woman that comes on to me that I don't want anything to do with.

However, I am an exception because I was raised by a lesbian. The concept of homosexuality is not foreign to me, and therefore does not make me uncomfortable when confronted by it.

It's a good old fashioned fear of the unknown, a lack of understanding. "Flaming" gay males can actually frighten many a straight man, because it is a threat to their perceived masculinity. This is a big reason why straight men have rarely ever had any kind of problem with lesbians, because women on women action is not a threat to a man's masculinity.

However, put a "flaming" gay male next to a guy who's comfortable and confident in his heterosexuality, and has had experiences dealing with gay males, chances are there won't be much of a problem at all.

Now, a perfect example of a straight male that is most probably NOT comfortable and confident in his heterosexuality? A young man in the 8th grade. Hell, they still might not be comfortable around young women.

It's very easy for me to understand how this could happen. Please, don't read that I excuse or condone his actions, it's just that from my vantage point and experiences, it's easier for me to understand.

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Post #: 23

RE: This just makes Me so sad - 3/1/2008 4:08:01 AM

LadyLynx

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This not only makes me sad, it makes me furious. (by the way I didn't view the video, because of my roomie's being asleep, I don't know the full context of the story.) I gather that the kid who shot the other kid is still alive? Well he should be tried and convicted as an adult, and further more, so should the parents. (I know prolly nothing would happen to them.)

As for Ellen DeGeneres, so what if she had an agenda, it's thanks to people in past who did have agendas that we were able to get other things accomplished. women's vote,civil rights,need I go on? Her agenda maybe nothing more then to see those of the worldwide GLBT community be able to be who they are, without fear of discrimination,being hurt/killed as a result.

The story would probably get nationwide coverage if/when a certain church in Westboro,Kansas gets a hold of it. THAT disgusts me.

< Message edited by LadyLynx -- 3/1/2008 4:09:35 AM >

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RE: This just makes Me so sad - 3/1/2008 9:22:35 AM

slaveboyforyou

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quote:

But as a young straight white male, presumably Christian or of Christian heritage, who has no disabilities, one might ask whether you could have any first hand experience of hate crime along these lines?

LadyEllen, no I have never been targeted because of my ethnicity. But I have been assaulted before, and I have been intimidated by black males who threatened me because of my ethnicity. One is 3rd degree battery, and the other is terroristic threatening under the criminal code in my particular state. I didn't report it of course, because it would have been a waste of my time. Both are misdemeanors, and nothing would have been done.

You're presuming a lot when you think that straight, white, anglo-saxon males don't get targeted for violence. I do fall into that particular category, and we are targeted for robbery and assault all the time by minorities. Now, should that be a hate crime? Should the black males that threatened me had the misdemeanor crime of terroristic threatening enhanced to a felony? Should poor people that rob and assault wealthy people be charged with a hate crime? After all they are targeting a person because of their social status. Do you see where I am going with this? Hate crime laws are vague, and they can be abused by prosecutors looking to stack charges on a defendant. Don't get me wrong, I think it is disgusting and deplorable when people target any group of people for violence. But violence is violence.

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Post #: 25

RE: This just makes Me so sad - 3/1/2008 11:04:24 AM

domahpet

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and white entitlement is just that.

(flame on)

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Post #: 26

RE: This just makes Me so sad - 3/1/2008 1:41:12 PM

ItalianSMistress

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I posted this right before I went to bed last night, and then I worked all day, so I just got to read the messages now, and I have a few things to say.
First off, I think its wonderful the Ellen said something about this. IMO, she does not do enough for gay rights, given her status. She barley ever brings up Porsha or talks about gay rights. Of course it would make sense that she would say something about this, just like, yes, it would make sense if it was a black person that was killed for being black, Oprah would and should speak out about it. Who else could have that kind of impact? If I posted a video talking about this crime, would it get as many hits? UM< NO, that is why it is not only wonderful, but critical that people that have the voices we don’t, speak up against bullshit like this.
Also, Hate Crime laws are needed. The motive behind a hate crime, is usually to make the victim suffer and/or dead. For no reason, other than intolerance. And when you think about it logically, is a mentally ill person who lost it and murdered someone, or a drug addict who is strung out and murders a store clerk for money, the same as someone who goes and hunts down a person to kill them just bc they are different?

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RE: This just makes Me so sad - 3/1/2008 2:16:37 PM

slaveboyforyou

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quote:

And when you think about it logically, is a mentally ill person who lost it and murdered someone, or a drug addict who is strung out and murders a store clerk for money, the same as someone who goes and hunts down a person to kill them just bc they are different?

Of course they are different, but that isn't even a fair analogy. A person that commits a hate crime is more like a person that hates the world in general and kills someone at random. How far are you willing to go with the definition of a hate crime? What if I hate people with long hair, and I assault someone of that description? Am I a hate criminal? I wear glasses most of the time. If someone beats me to death as they scream, "you four eyed bastard!", are they a hate criminal? You can go a hundred different ways with it. Hate crime laws are comparable to thought crime. It's a dangerous road to go down, and we shouldn't support it.

< Message edited by slaveboyforyou -- 3/1/2008 2:17:49 PM >

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RE: This just makes Me so sad - 3/1/2008 2:46:19 PM

IrishMist

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quote:

Hate crime laws are comparable to thought crime. It's a dangerous road to go down, and we shouldn't support it.

I actually agree with you here.

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RE: This just makes Me so sad - 3/1/2008 3:55:22 PM

lazarus1983

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quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou

quote:

And when you think about it logically, is a mentally ill person who lost it and murdered someone, or a drug addict who is strung out and murders a store clerk for money, the same as someone who goes and hunts down a person to kill them just bc they are different?

Of course they are different, but that isn't even a fair analogy. A person that commits a hate crime is more like a person that hates the world in general and kills someone at random. How far are you willing to go with the definition of a hate crime? What if I hate people with long hair, and I assault someone of that description? Am I a hate criminal? I wear glasses most of the time. If someone beats me to death as they scream, "you four eyed bastard!", are they a hate criminal? You can go a hundred different ways with it. Hate crime laws are comparable to thought crime. It's a dangerous road to go down, and we shouldn't support it.

Excellent post, slaveboyforyou. Take Ray Bradbury's theory on predicting the future: "Take everything you have, everything around you, everything that's going on, and multiply it!"

Will we be stopped on the streets and given a citation for "hating" someone?

"You sir, are going to jail!"

"Why?"

"Because you hate that person!"

"But sending me to jail will not change how I think!"

"That doesn't matter, you're still going to jail!"

If you outlaw hate crimes, then only outlaws will hate!

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Post #: 30

RE: This just makes Me so sad - 3/1/2008 7:15:08 PM

Gwynvyd

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quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou

quote:

And when you think about it logically, is a mentally ill person who lost it and murdered someone, or a drug addict who is strung out and murders a store clerk for money, the same as someone who goes and hunts down a person to kill them just bc they are different?

Of course they are different, but that isn't even a fair analogy. A person that commits a hate crime is more like a person that hates the world in general and kills someone at random. How far are you willing to go with the definition of a hate crime? What if I hate people with long hair, and I assault someone of that description? Am I a hate criminal? I wear glasses most of the time. If someone beats me to death as they scream, "you four eyed bastard!", are they a hate criminal? You can go a hundred different ways with it. Hate crime laws are comparable to thought crime. It's a dangerous road to go down, and we shouldn't support it.

So.. you do not think a KKK member should be held more accountable for hunting down a black person and killing them solely on the baisis of thier race... vs. a botched hold up?

Hmm...

And other groups like the GLBT who have been demonised should just be looked over in hate crimes because hate is just "out there"

Hmm...

This sounds akin to the argument that says gays shouldnt marry because what next? a guy marring a gerbil? Maybe 3 gerbils and a goat! How far will it go.. and "Think of the children!"

every once in a while you have to step back and seriously think.

One does not have to take things to the furthest conclusion.. however when a society disenfranchises a segment of it's population. ( Blacks, Latinos, GLBT) and these groups are continualy targeted and killed solely on the basis of how they appear then I think a stiffer sentance should be in place for those who go after these groups. I also think measures should be in place incase of reverse racism. If a group of Blacks, Latinos, or Gays grouped up and beat the shit out of someone solely because of thier (whatever) I think it should be dealt with the same.

Untill you personaly have stood outside of a gay bar and been harrased and phsyicaly threatened.. or outside of a Black church and called a N lover in the South with your friends standing there afraid the dumb ass red necks were going to start a fight.. or standing next to your Latina friend speaking Spanish and had rude assed people talk about you saying shit like oh.. fucking illegals when she was born here, raised here.. and actualy speaks *bad* spanish. You may never realise how much it happens.. or how important it is to those whom this happens to. or how pervasive it is in our culture thanks to people who do not care to do a damn thing about being better people and accepting others.. little alone speaking up for others.

Personaly I read history.. I read about how Germany slipped down that slope of hating Jews.. how the jokes started.. how they were not protected.. how they were demonised.. How the Gypsies were feared and reviled because of thier migrant nature.. and coming in and doing odd jobs.. and being dirty immigrants. How the Gays were repulsive, vile, and mentaly ill.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_Germany#Racial_and_social_persecution

If you do not learn from history you are doomed to repeat it.

I dont give a damn who you hate.. if that is how you chose to spend your limited time on this rock.. then have at it.. however people do not deserve to be treated unjustly because of it and not given protections against those who chose to act on thier hate.

Gwyn

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RE: This just makes Me so sad - 3/1/2008 7:41:50 PM

SubbieOnWheels

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I don't care if people hate me (well, actually i do care, but can't do much about irrational hatred).

But I do care if those people attack me just because they hate me. Or if they attack others solely on the basis of hatred.

Defending oneself or another from imminent attack is an excusable motive. Anger, fear (two sides of the same coin, IMO), greed, mental instability, - these motives are inexcusable. But plain and simple hatred is abhorrant.

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Post #: 32

RE: This just makes Me so sad - 3/2/2008 4:05:03 AM

MissMorrigan

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Let's face it, we can have varying opinions on a wide range of subjects but unless we directly know what it is to be one of the discriminated, we can't possibly even begin to comprehend what it feels like to be discriminated against for being of a different ethnicity, to have a larger dress size, to have a different sexual orientation, to simply be... different.

It does matter to me that people are still subjected to discrimination and I personally feel the laws need to be TOUGHER to combat this. It's not acceptable, never will be acceptable and MORE education is necessary to ensure future generations' lives aren't blighted by ignorance and hatred, embracing acceptance and understanding instead.

I am thankful to the laws that ensure war criminals are brought to justice. I am thankful to the laws for making it an offence to discriminate people based on colour, gender, sexuality and especially so for those people who have refused to give in and have gone from strength to strength to highlight these important issues in helping open our eyes to the injustices experienced by so many... if we didn't have such people, we'd still have slavery and gay people would still be receiving lobotomies after suffering ice baths to the point of syncope.

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RE: This just makes Me so sad - 3/2/2008 4:34:13 AM

SugarMyChurro

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Gwynvyd
...GLBT...

That stands for "Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual and Transgender" for those like myself that did not know.

I do not personally support the idea of special category crimes like "hate crimes." But I do vehemently oppose intolerance and have personally defended others from acts of violence originating from irrational prejudices.

Foititis:

Funny you should say that. My brother was once complimented and asked out by another man in front of me when I was only a young teenager. My brother thanked the other fellow and declined the offer. I was quite surprised and asked my brother why he didn't just kick the other guy's ass. My brother replied that he felt complimented and not the least bit offended, that being admired by others didn't change anything about what one knew about oneself.

Two hugely important lessons in one go.

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Post #: 34

RE: This just makes Me so sad - 3/2/2008 4:42:22 AM

IrishMist

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quote:

I do not personally support the idea of special category crimes like "hate crimes." But I do vehemently oppose intolerance and have personally defended others from acts of violence originating from irrational prejudices.

Thank you for saying that. I agree, 100% with it.

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Post #: 35

RE: This just makes Me so sad - 3/2/2008 5:44:48 AM

SugarMyChurro

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As long we as we are discussing equality under existing law; I want to express support for gay, lesbian, bi, trans, and poly unions as already existing under current marriage and civil union laws.

Fair is fair. And consistency is important in such matters.

< Message edited by SugarMyChurro -- 3/2/2008 5:46:37 AM >

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Post #: 36

RE: This just makes Me so sad - 3/2/2008 5:54:37 AM

MissMorrigan

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All the while we have laws upholding parents' rights in teaching their children that homosexuals are 'unnatural' we will have fear and loathing, and continued discrimination. All the while we have laws uphlding parents' rights in teaching their children that caucasians are superior and ethnic minorities have no place in western societies we'll have fear and loathing, and continued discrimination.

quote:

ORIGINAL: SugarMyChurro
Funny you should say that. My brother was once complimented and asked out by another man in front of me when I was only a young teenager. My brother thanked the other fellow and declined the offer. I was quite surprised and asked my brother why he didn't just kick the other guy's ass. My brother replied that he felt complimented and not the least bit offended, that being admired by others didn't change anything about what one knew about oneself.

Two hugely important lessons in one go.

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Post #: 37

RE: This just makes Me so sad - 3/2/2008 6:21:05 AM

LadyEllen

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Rather interested in the notion of "thought crime".

What is notable is that the slippery slope debate of thought crime is only applied when it comes to hatred and attacks against LGBT people, the disabled, the elderly, ethnic and religious groups.

When the thought crime is hatred and attacks against the white controlled western socio-economic system, we suddenly require laws to allow intrusive surveillance and to punish people merely for having literature on the subject or associating with the wrong people, and even to enable the breach of other laws to allow torture. From McCarthy through to Bush, the only aknowledged form of thought crime has been that which disagrees with the status quo of the white Christian heterosexual hegemony which is in the strongest position to start with, and which acknowledgement and consequent action is aimed at maintaining that dominance.

I guess then, it all comes down to who one is, and whom one hates as to whether any action is considered necessary?

E

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Post #: 38

RE: This just makes Me so sad - 3/2/2008 6:59:27 AM

ItalianSMistress

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From: Niagara Region Ontario Canada
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quote:

So.. you do not think a KKK member should be held more accountable for hunting down a black person and killing them solely on the baisis of thier race... vs. a botched hold up?

In one word, YES

quote:

If you do not learn from history you are doomed to repeat it.

And I say this ALL THE TIME, its so true. This is why the lessons we have learned from 1800's slavery, and the WWII and gay bashing should NEVER be forgotten. My UM's are only 10 and 11 and I have already taught them about all of this, over and over, each time getting more in detail as they get older. This is the kind of things that everyone needs to be educated about, cuz afterall, prejudice is caused by ignorance, that is even what the word means,,,pre-judgement.

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Post #: 39

RE: This just makes Me so sad - 3/2/2008 8:03:14 AM

beargonewild

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~FR~

Quite often what I have witnessed is the fact that the hate, or what I perceive as hate, stems from people fearing what they do not understand. This I see is especially so when it pertains to the GLBT community. I lost track of the countless discussion I had with many of my straight friends and the commonality is they are unable to grasp that fact that we are attracted to members of our own gender. It isn't until I explain that we are just like everyone else, we hold down jobs, we raise a family, we have health problems , we pay taxes, in short we live just like the rest of humanity. The only difference is for some unknown reason we are oriented to love another of the same sex.
One of the biggest misconceptions I have seen and experienced myself is over the issue of commenting on the attractiveness of a straight male. This does not automatically mean I want to get him in bed, I simply find a quality about that person is attractive in the exact same manner I will compliment a beautiful woman. It seems that for some reason, an innocent comment is incorrectly misinterpreted and blown way out of context. yet the irony is hearing a straight male expressing his attraction to a beautiful woman and that is automatically assumed there are no strings attached, ie: he wants her in bed.

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