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Religion and D/s - 3/10/2008 12:59:33 AM   
xoxi


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My Master is a Christian, and even though I was raised by two agnostics, I do believe in God and believe that Christ was a holy man, son of God, prophet, etc. But lately I've been curious about the Bible, particularly the parts that discuss how to live in a Biblical marriage.

I know that there are neo-pagan groups who worship forms of a Mother Goddess - I don't know much about them, but I wonder if those religions are more likely to proscribe a female role as the dominant head of the family in the same way that Judeo-Christian religion (and Islam too I believe) consider the male to be the leader.

The Bible states clearly that the natural order is for a wife to submit to her husband.  That is something that I personally believe...I know there are people who will disagree with me and all I can say is that I respect your right to disagree, but that's not the focus of this thread.  What I'm curious about is for the religious people out there, how does your religion view the idea of power exchange in relationships, and how does that affect your own view on it if at all?
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RE: Religion and D/s - 3/10/2008 1:20:54 AM   
MasterFireMaam


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My experiences of what I feel is truth in this lifestyle changes my spiritual beliefs. When I began, I was Christian and worked hard to be a submissive Christian wife, yet I was drawn to being an SM Top and Dominant. Then I met this Buddhist and his Druid slave and his other Shamanistic slave and his other Christian slave...and Christian-Buddhist and his Muslim slave...and a Metaphysicist and his born slaves....yeah, my views changed. I learned that what's most important for everyone (yes, there IS universal truth) is to be REAL, whatever that means to you.

"...because once you're REAL, you can't be ugly, except to those who don't understand." Skin Horse to Velveteen Rabbit

Master Fire - and eclectic mix of Buddhist, Pagan, Native American and eastern...oh, and I still speak in tongues.


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RE: Religion and D/s - 3/10/2008 2:11:53 AM   
stella41b


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My religious views are based on Theravada Buddhism and therefore over 25 years of daily meditation, prayer, observation of what I perceive to be reality of the world around me and seeking such through my interaction with what many here would call God, other people and listening to the inner voice of my Soul this much I have learned:

BDSM is not a religion, but a classification of hundreds of different human relationships and interactions based on a great many different principles, ideas, rituals, practices, actions, and gestures.

People who prefer to base their life and moral code on a book and not on what they can see in the world around them or have learned from their interactions with others are out of touch with reality, especially with regard to the three main Abrahamic religions - Christianity, Islam, Judaism. These people in being so blinkered and prejudiced tend to misjudge others and cause other people a lot of suffering, persecution and hatred through their false views. However before someone declares a fatwah on me this is not a generalization about Christians, Muslims or Jews and I automatically assume that Christians, Muslims and Jews are all good people who are strong in their faiths and bring a lot of good to the world and have equal right to practise their faiths, hold their principles and have their beliefs as I have mine.

A love of what is known as God is a love of God, the name of that love isn't important.

There is no evidence which supports any truth that the natural order is for a woman or female to submit to a man or male or vice versa. This is often based on another popular misconception based on a story about a man and a woman in a garden which suggests that just because a woman took an apple out of a tree man is equal to God but woman is not. From my observations of the world and people in my life I am convinced that the truth is man is nowhere equal to God and that such people are out of touch with reality. I am also convinced that the strongest influence on any person in this world is their relationship with their mother.

Kink is an essential part of human nature as is a desire for acceptance, understanding and love between themselves and people.

People are made up of matter (their physical bodies) and energy (their Souls) and as such they need to experience energy transfer between other people in the form of intimacy to fulfil psychological, emotional and physical cravings which to me seems to provide an explanation as to why relationships happen.

The power exchange in these interpersonal relationships between human beings tends to occur when one feels the need or desire to submit to another human being or has such a need or desire to assume control over another human being. Some are able to satisfy their needs or desires both from submitting to other human beings and from assuming control over human beings.

This power exchange between people is perfectly natural and is connected directly with a role they assume with regard to another person and is therefore a part of life. However when it is a role which involves a certain degree of intimacy it is what many people perceive to be either D/s or BDSM.  

One's role and desire to assume such role in BDSM and D/s is purely individual and is based on any combination of spiritual, psychological, emotional or physical needs and acceptance of oneself as a person and acceptance of those needs and such roles as normal.

However problems tend to occur when people start mixing morality and religion with BDSM as it causes some people to judge the morality of others on the basis of their kink, others to feel persecuted or judged on the basis of them being aware that they have such a kink or feeling a need to share that kink with others, and when people start perceiving BDSM and D/s in the same way as a major religion or philosophy and believing that there is only one true or right way for everyone to follow. This is where misunderstandings can occur.

Perceiving BDSM or D/s as a major philosophy or even religion to determine morality or even to decide what is normal and acceptable is wrong, and is just as misguided and out of touch with reality as preferring to base your life and attitudes about life on a book and not from what goes on around you.

God gave us both life and freedom. Freedom recognizes a person simply for the fact that they are human, and not for any particular or individual characteristic or aspect about them.

Freedom carries with it responsibility, and being responsible for one's own life and manner of living and assuming and trusting others to do the same I feel is a solid basis for tolerance. Freedom to be yourself, freedom to love and be loved as you wish, freedom to develop and build relationships with others on the basis of their and your needs and desires.

This is just my opinion and feeling based on my own beliefs and my perception of the reality of almost 42 years of living. Some of it has been learned from making mistakes, being stupid, failing, unintentionally hurting or deceiving others and being unintentionally (and sometimes intentionally I guess) being hurt and deceived by others. Some of it also has been learned from succeeding, loving, reaching out to others, overcoming illusions and discovering things. I am living and still have a lot to learn. I may be wrong or misguided, but this is what I feel and think today.  

< Message edited by stella41b -- 3/10/2008 2:22:05 AM >


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RE: Religion and D/s - 3/10/2008 2:43:54 AM   
lally3


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hi xoxi,

i have my own spirituality (probably pagan if i have to give it a title), and God is part of that, but i dont read the bible.  for me, spirituality is all about self expression.  and really, whatever spiritual path you follow the same basic rules apply.  to live your life honestly and with an open heart.  to me that means to be honest with yourself as well as others and be open to whatever makes sense to you as well as others.  too many people dont and stifle who they are, they miss their path in life and the direction thats best for them.

i feel the energies of nature accutely, have since a child and i have always felt in awe of that, submissive to it - so for me being a submissve feels perfectly natural.  may even be where it all came from.  well, that and my dad being extremely Dom.

thanks for giving me the chance to think that through.

lallyx

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RE: Religion and D/s - 3/10/2008 4:50:43 AM   
Dnomyar


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The bible has changed a lot over the years. In the begining women were equal to man. Then the men leaders of the church changed that to make themselves more powerful. Leaders used and changed the bible to their own ends. Christ made himself the son of god. Most people of the time did'nt believe him. The path he used to carry the cross was total ignored till recently when people found that tourist would pay money to visit it. The bible is made up from a collection  of books. Most of the books were discarded. Why?  The bible like anything posted here you should take with a grain of salt.

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RE: Religion and D/s - 3/10/2008 4:57:14 AM   
CarrieO


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I'm not a religious person, religion is a man-made idea. I'm a spiritual person, as I see spirituality coming from the maker/begininning/universe/void. 

"I learned that what's most important for everyone (yes, there IS universal truth) is to be REAL, whatever that means to you." MasterFireMaam....your posts are always enlightening, regardless of the subject.

"A love of what is known as God is a love of God, the name of that love isn't important."  stella41b....beautiful and well said. Your post spoke truth.

"spirituality is all about self expression"  lally3....exactly! 

Now, all that being quoted brings me to my point...your spirtuality is relevant to you and you alone. Regardless of the path you choose to follow. I find submission in many/most beliefs.....be it submissive to a God/Goddess, submitting to a practice of mindfulness or submission to the power/purpose/chaos of Nature. For me, I submit to the need to practice my personal beliefs and through that submission I find peace.
I have no desire to discount one belief system over another, where you find Bliss is your path.

On a personal note, I find that while in a powerful D/s situation I'm more in touch with my soul/spirit/artistic self than during most other times. Call it what you will but for me it's a true "religious" experience!

I was raised by a VERY christian Mother and a deist Father who found his inspiration in Nature. I chose to focus more on his path.
I don't care for labels because I don't fit any one....pagan/agnostic/buddhist/deist.....all leads to one.

btw....excellent question. This is something I'm trying to learn more about, the idea of sacred sex and how to find the common ground between sacred, profane and purpose. It truly is more than sex and this type of question is just one example of that. I look forward to the other replies.

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RE: Religion and D/s - 3/10/2008 4:58:52 AM   
Littlepita


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The Bible is the divine and inspired word of God. People do and continue to interpret the Bible for their own purposes, but the true word of the Bible and its message has not changed.

I'm Christian and while I have many issues that need work and forgiveness, I do believe that my form of BDSM doesn't go against my religious beliefs.

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RE: Religion and D/s - 3/10/2008 4:59:12 AM   
Justme696


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quote:

I'm not a religious person, religion is a man-made idea. I'm a spiritual person,


As soon you said "I am spiritual"...it became man made too ;)
Besides nature..all things on this world are man made, doesn't mean it is bad. It can be used bad...agree.

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RE: Religion and D/s - 3/10/2008 5:02:01 AM   
colouredin


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I have never been religious I have always been spiritual and I love the ideas in religion, the bible as a list of rules in which to live your life is fundementally flawed due to the contradictions.

When i was reading into Wicca a book i read said something along the lines of you can be a Christian/Buddhist/Hindu Wiccian that these things arent mutually exclusive. We dont have to have one set of rigid rules or beliefs

"ideas are good, you can change ideas beliefs are a lot harder"

I am sure many Christians would say that BDSM has no place within the religion, I have met a few of them.

I do know that some Wiccian and Pagen groups worship the Goddess and that power is feminine but thats not a literal thing. Its often due to the idea of the woman being the mother.

Sir is a Shaman and he obviously has strong beliefs, he will frankly discuss them but his being Shaman has no bearing in his idea of power dynamics he sees them as two facets of his identity.

Dunno if any of this helps, just my opinion really.

< Message edited by colouredin -- 3/10/2008 5:03:04 AM >


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RE: Religion and D/s - 3/10/2008 5:04:16 AM   
MissSCD


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First, you have opened a can of worms.   I nearly gasped when I saw the topic.  Another thing, and I have been a Christian all my life and believe in the holy trinity.  God is the Father/Son/HolySpirit.  I also believe in Spiritual Healing because I have learned to use it.  It works.
  I believe you need to find a small church with a lot of love that will show you the way first, and they you will be leading that life you want.
Also, there are a lot of Christian BDSM groups on the net.  Scope them out, but also be very aware they are to the extreme in this nature.
 
Good luck to you.

Regards, MissSCD

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RE: Religion and D/s - 3/10/2008 5:07:19 AM   
CarrieO


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Justme696

quote:

I'm not a religious person, religion is a man-made idea. I'm a spiritual person,


As soon you said "I am spiritual"...it became man made too ;)
Besides nature..all things on this world are man made, doesn't mean it is bad. It can be used bad...agree.




Point taken......imo, religions tend to be systems created by humans. Spirituality is a feeling as opposed to a belief system.
I was hoping you would chime in, Justme696, I like your posts too.

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RE: Religion and D/s - 3/10/2008 5:09:51 AM   
UKCouple4femsub


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quote:

ORIGINAL: xoxi
I know that there are neo-pagan groups who worship forms of a Mother Goddess - I don't know much about them, but I wonder if those religions are more likely to proscribe a female role as the dominant head of the family in the same way that Judeo-Christian religion (and Islam too I believe) consider the male to be the leader.


To suggest that any form of pagan (of which there are many) worships any form of deity is misguided. Many of them feel that it is arrogant to suggest that any deity would be in the slightest bit interested in a meer mortal. Many of them also worship both male and female aspects of the divine. So there is no deity defined dominant role in a 'neo' pagan family. There again, ask a dozen different pagans what they believe, and you'll get 13 different answers

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RE: Religion and D/s - 3/10/2008 5:32:52 AM   
LaTigresse


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My own personal feelings are very near what Masterfire and Stella have written so beautifully.

I despise the very word religioun for what it reflects in todays world environment. Too many people, of all religiouns commit horribly evil acts all in the name of their religioun.

The bible I cannot give any honour as it is my personal opinion it is but a very faint shadow of it's original intent and content. To the point where I feel it has no validity in my life at all. For me, to follow it, would be akin to listening to someone I knew to be a false prophet. 

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Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

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RE: Religion and D/s - 3/10/2008 5:38:33 AM   
topcat


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The Bible also states that you must kill homosexuals. If that's the divine and inspired word of god, God can kiss my ass.

< Message edited by topcat -- 3/10/2008 5:39:00 AM >


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RE: Religion and D/s - 3/10/2008 5:41:49 AM   
LaTigresse


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Damned straight! I'd much rather they kiss it than try and kill it. I kinda have a certain fondness for my ass and all it is attached to. One of those early bible re-writers must have been a closet homosexual filled with self loathing.......

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Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

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RE: Religion and D/s - 3/10/2008 5:55:16 AM   
RedMagic1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dnomyar

The bible has changed a lot over the years. In the begining women were equal to man. Then the men leaders of the church changed that to make themselves more powerful. Leaders used and changed the bible to their own ends. Christ made himself the son of god. Most people of the time did'nt believe him. The path he used to carry the cross was total ignored till recently when people found that tourist would pay money to visit it. The bible is made up from a collection  of books. Most of the books were discarded. Why?  The bible like anything posted here you should take with a grain of salt.

Okay, secret's out.  You're deep.  You can try to be "just" a jokester all you want.  I see through it.


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RE: Religion and D/s - 3/10/2008 6:20:20 AM   
CarrieO


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dnomyar

The bible has changed a lot over the years. In the begining women were equal to man. Then the men leaders of the church changed that to make themselves more powerful.




Take out the words that were attributed to Paul (Saul) and the fervernt words of the followers after Jesus and what are you left with?  You're left with Jesus saying 2 basic things.....love the lord and love others as you would yourself.  VERY simplified and I'm sure I'll be disputed but there it is.  A religion based on what would serve the powerful at the time. This is in reference to the new testament because that's what christianity is supposedly based on. New book for the new church, or so I was told.


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RE: Religion and D/s - 3/10/2008 6:35:22 AM   
Justme696


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quote:

ORIGINAL: topcat

The Bible also states that you must kill homosexuals. If that's the divine and inspired word of god, God can kiss my ass.


It is the word of men, saying it is god.
God created mankind, therefor he must have known there would homosexuals not? (Unlass the Great MAster is not perfect ;)  )
Guess just some followers disliked it, and added it. Although..in history..with spartans and greeks, homosexuality was normal.

The problem with "spiritual" is, that religious people also say they are "spiritual"because they believe in the holy spirit.  I guess it is a little of those them/we discussion, which are good ofcourse.

< Message edited by Justme696 -- 3/10/2008 6:36:11 AM >


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RE: Religion and D/s - 3/10/2008 6:43:08 AM   
TracyTaken


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There was movie made that had a lot of good points, but one of the best things it did was trace the four gospels.  From the birth of Jesus, to his death, to Mark (the only link between the man called Jesus and the first gospel written five decades after his death).  It also looks at the predessors of Jesus and standard Christian beliefs.  You might find it offensive, but  I hope you don't.

http://www.thegodmovie.com/clip-Trailer.php

To answer your question:  I have no religous beliefs.  I have many beliefs about what constitues my moral obligations.  A pagan verse puts it in a nutshell:  "Harm none and do as you will."  These no more determine the power dynamics of my relationship than they do my golf game.   

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RE: Religion and D/s - 3/10/2008 7:08:42 AM   
colouredin


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Justme696

The problem with "spiritual" is, that religious people also say they are "spiritual"because they believe in the holy spirit.  I guess it is a little of those them/we discussion, which are good ofcourse.


Hmm Its the beauty of language again, differant people using words for differant things. I dont think there is a word better than spiritual to desciribe me, i take a lot of differant ideas from differant relgions and they make me feel better I dont revolve my life around them, im fairly open minded to other peoples beliefs and stuff, i just think spiritual fits that rather nicely.


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