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RE: Racist - 3/16/2008 9:00:08 PM

Posts: 1650
Joined: 9/24/2004
From: Connecticut
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

Every year 20/20 or 60 Minutes does a story where they look for available apartments and send whites to apply as well as people of color.

And every year,the Caucasians get the apartment and the others don`t.

That has nothing to do with affirmative action or the NAACP.

That`s about bigotry,straight up.

The same thing happens nation wide with jobs,loans,red-lining,etc.

Until and when that black couple get the apartment(or job,loan,etc.) with the hidden cameras running,we need to do something.

Here's an interesting study from the Department of Labor on the Glass Ceiling (which identifies a definite Glass Ceiling):

http://www.dol.gov/oasam/programs/history/reich/reports/ceiling.pdf

But there I go with all those facts, when we could just sit around and whine about the Miss Black America pageant which is definitely holding white people back.

C~

_____________________________

"Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid." -despair.com

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(in reply to Owner59)

RE: Racist - 3/16/2008 9:04:29 PM

Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline

"But there I go with all those facts, when we could just sit around and whine about the Miss Black America pageant which is definitely holding white people back."

You`re good,very good.

Some people can elegantly say in one phrase what takes me paragraphs.

Well done.

(in reply to Wildfleurs)

RE: Racist - 3/16/2008 9:59:11 PM

Posts: 5512
Joined: 11/20/2007
From: Liechtenstein
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

Is there a reason you use "extreme" and "over the top" examples when someone disagrees with you?

Yes.

quote:

I do not believe being racist in a way to help minorities does a thing for racial issues, other than make them pronounced.

Does being racist in a way to help the white majority, such as discriminating against people who submit a resume using a "black-sounding" name, make racial issues less pronounced?

quote:

So a system based upon merit is not a good system?

Yes, that is what I am saying, given the fact that people of color are discriminated against by the white majority, and that a true "meritocracy" doesn't even exist among whites.
Meritocracy Myth:
http://www.dollarsandsense.org/archives/2006/0106guinier.html
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2007/4/1/135222/7838
(we suspect that the overall effect of integrity is to suppress rather than enhance upward mobility. We suspect that not cheating, not stealing, and choosing not to get ahead at the expense of others restricts social mobility and the accumulation of wealth.)
http://education.guardian.co.uk/egweekly/story/0,5500,1474891,00.html
http://millionsofmouths.com/blog/nfblog/2006/07/25/the-myth-of-meritocracy/
(It seems that the belief in the myth of meritocracy isn’t based on logic or empirical evidence. Rather, it seems the belief in meritocracy is based on desire and cognitive dissonance. Not to say that the majority of non-poor Americans directly want to believe that 38.2 million American people are lazy and stupid. Rather, the majority of non-poor Americans want to believe that they, the non-poor, have earned their wealth and status. The majority of non-poor Americans choose to reject the notion that poverty is unfairly determined by non-meritocratic forces, because they don’t want to accept that their own wealth is equally unfair.)
http://www.ncsociology.org/sociationtoday/v21/merit.htm
http://www.anthrosource.net/doi/abs/10.1525/awr.1990.11.1.9
http://securingamerica.com/ccn/node/2322
(there is a gap between how people think the system works and how the system actually does work)
http://fromthetrenches.blogspot.com/2004/05/commentary-meritocracy-myth.html
(He had more money than she did, therefore he was better than she was. It really came down to being just that simple. )
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/marie-wilson/playing-the-gender-card-_b_72178.html
http://www.lse.ac.uk/collections/economicHistory/pdf/wp5399.pdf
http://survivingtheworkday.com/2006/09/23/the-myth-of-meritocracy/
( One of the most damaging effects of the myth of meritocracy is that many of us in the United States believe that if we buckle down and work hard we will be rewarded by keeping our jobs, getting promotions, or getting paid more. We’re presented with discrepant evidence over and over that should shift our thinking away from the myth of meritocracy, but it doesn’t. At least it hasn’t.)
http://mrkatz.blogspot.com/2007/09/on-myth-of-academic-meritocracy.html
http://womensspace.wordpress.com/2008/01/25/white-privilege-the-meritocracy-myth-and-perfect-feminists-perfect-women/
(You can be the perfect woman, you can be the perfect feminist, and it just doesn’t matter, because women are crap - all women are crap. Including you, whatEVER you are.
It’s humbling, finally figuring out that life really and truly isn’t some free-market meritocracy and so therefore you really can’t win simply by competing more efficiently.
I think this is one interesting difference between a lot of white and minority feminists. The latter struggle with urges to differentiate themselves from “undesirable” (which is to say, all) sex and race stereotypes, sure, but I do think the bullshit in the system is less invisible to women of color.
White men, after all, are at the top of the heap. And most white women have at least one white man in their families, while few women of color do.)
{quote]So are you saying that if a non-white makes it in life it is because they busted their ass to get there, or it was because of all the special programs? It's because they really had to bust their asses; the deck is really stacked against not-whites.

quote:

I say treat people for what they can do, and how well they can do it. No one should get special treatement based solely on "race".

SO no more "legacy" admissions to Yale for the Bushes of America, right? No more automatic jobs in your classmate's father's company, right? No more Skull and Bones secret societies, yes? No more cronyism, ja? No more hiring "white-sounding" names, is that it? No more hiring tokens, si?

quote:

It was bad when it is done for whites, and it is bad when it is done for anyone based on race.

Except whites aren't about to give up their advantages. No way.

quote:

It is called having a single standard.

After all, your "single standard" would mean that whites would have to give up all their special priveleges, wouldn't it? Blacks sure are benefitting in the job market with your "single standard" (as I pointed out to you already), aren't they? The single standard that gives the silver spoon to whites and the barbed-wire dildo to people of color.

"You lied as that link goes to no standard, just more evidence that there is discimination. "

"You are a liar. There is no way to not understand my points." Your so-called "points" are clear as mud.

I'll bet it really impresses the women reading this thread how easily the accusation of lying rolls off your tongue. That's as classy as that obese soi-disant genius from Tennessee earlier. They are every bit as intelligent as the male posters on this thread are; I'm guessing they see through that bullshit.

You go ahead and keep running with it, though.

Something I am really curious about, though. Do you have a Rebel Flag decal on your vehicle, or do you support flying the Stars and Bars over the Gold Dome? For some reason, I'm guessing that the answer to one of those questions is affirmative. After all, discrimination based on skin color or other trivial traits has been against the law for some time in the US. The playing field is level for all citizens. And, as white male Southerners have carefully explained to the world several times, the Confederate Battle Flag only symbolizes Southern white male ancestry and cultural identity, and is not a stand-in for slavery or oppression or any other negative thing. It stands for Southern Hospitality. Just make sure the sun don't set on your ass in Birmingham if'n you're African-American, and make sure you ain't carryin' any rope in your car if you're passin' through Mississippi. Time for a Co-cola.

(in reply to OrionTheWolf)

RE: Racist - 3/17/2008 12:37:35 AM

Posts: 2297
Joined: 12/24/2005
From: None of your business
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

Says who?

So, things are way better and it's working, great. Keep it up. In fact I'm going to go look for the most dense black population area in the nation and move right in, I mean it must be pretty nice with all this advancement do these government policies, we've had. I was in east Saint Louis a few years back, and it's nearly a 100% black in the worst areas, with half collapsed buildings you can see even from the interstate, but that must have been fixed do to these programs and policies And here I thought shit was still fucked up, and you go and ask me who says it's still messed up, after 50 years of government policies directed at it. I must just be out of the loop, I didn't realize there wasn't a big problem still in the black community.

But if the programs are working there must not be.

I concede.

Thanks.

(in reply to Owner59)

RE: Racist - 3/17/2008 4:42:22 AM

Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: NeedToUseYou

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

Says who?

So, things are way better and it's working, great. Keep it up. In fact I'm going to go look for the most dense black population area in the nation and move right in, I mean it must be pretty nice with all this advancement do these government policies, we've had. I was in east Saint Louis a few years back, and it's nearly a 100% black in the worst areas, with half collapsed buildings you can see even from the interstate, but that must have been fixed do to these programs and policies And here I thought shit was still fucked up, and you go and ask me who says it's still messed up, after 50 years of government policies directed at it. I must just be out of the loop, I didn't realize there wasn't a big problem still in the black community.

But if the programs are working there must not be.

I concede.

Thanks.

Did you know that over 80% of welfare recipients are white?

Are you operating from the bigot`s hand book which conflates black culture and welfare?

Keep it up.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

A question to thinking folks.

Why do folks associate people of color with welfare cheats?

Most of the people on welfare are white .

Does the discrimination against African Americans cause the disproportional poverty and slums they suffer with or it the other way around?

< Message edited by Owner59 -- 3/17/2008 4:47:52 AM >

(in reply to NeedToUseYou)

RE: Racist - 3/17/2008 6:33:01 AM

Posts: 9318
Joined: 11/3/2005
From: Kentucky
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

Every year 20/20 or 60 Minutes does a story where they look for available apartments and send whites to apply as well as people of color.

And every year,the Caucasians get the apartment and the others don`t.

That has nothing to do with affirmative action or the NAACP.

That`s about bigotry,straight up.

The same thing happens nation wide with jobs,loans,red-lining,etc.

Until and when that black couple get the apartment(or job,loan,etc.) with the hidden cameras running,we need to do something.

So until we eradicate every bigot in the U.S., we should keep races seperate, and give different races different benefits?
I'm sorry, I find that to be the most racist statement I've read today.
I know you think you're *not* being racist by wanting to help a certain group of people. I used to feel the same way. But then I realized I was actually being what I despised by perpetuating the myth that for some reason, certain races need extra help.
And owner59, since you never addressed this last night, I'd still like to know your answer to this.
Thank you in advance.
(and WildFleurs, I don't have a huge problem with Miss Black America, and I *do* realize why it was necessary when it was created. I just hope that we can now move on from that in a unified way. I don't like discrimination and racism either way it's directed, and since race is no longer an obstacle in the Miss America pageant, I think we should do away with other pageants which use race as the first entree into the contest.
As Lucious said earlier, this is a difficult problem, with no easy answers; but isn't an open an honest debate the first step to understanding and unity?

_____________________________

~Christina

A nice girl with a disturbing hobby

My femdom findom blog: http://www.MistressAvarice.com

(in reply to Owner59)

RE: Racist - 3/17/2008 6:45:35 AM

Posts: 16926
Status: offline

You talk in generalities and moan that minorities are given an unfair advantage, whilst plenty of people have given you concrete examples that show how minorities are at a disadvantage from the very start.

Until you understand this latter concept, I don't quite see how you're going to have an open discussion about this issue with anybody. Unless you want everyone to agree with your assertion that white people are suffering and are being discriminated against...

_____________________________

(in reply to xxblushesxx)

RE: Racist - 3/17/2008 7:12:03 AM

Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline

"So until we eradicate every bigot in the U.S"

You agreed with me that it`s discrimination that`s holding African Americans back.Thanks for that,at least.

I don`t think it`s possible to completely eliminate bigotry and racism.That`s not realistic.

But there are many things that can be done by law and voluntarily.

Ending the practice of automatically accepting the children of alumni at collages and universities (which is white/rich affirmative action)would be a good start.

Let them compete on the same level as everyone else.We`ll keep the George Bushs of the world out of Yale and Harvard this way.

The children of the rich have enough advantage in life without white affirmative action at Yale,Princeton Univ.,etc.

Ending red-lining and other institutional racism would be a worthy and attainable goal as well,if there was a will and acknowledgment that a problem exists.

Making it un-profitable to pay women less for the same work and job performance is a way to break the glass ceiling.

These are certainly realist goals .

But ignorance, denial and poor leadership won`t get us there.

(in reply to kittinSol)

RE: Racist - 3/17/2008 7:19:28 AM

Posts: 9318
Joined: 11/3/2005
From: Kentucky
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

You talk in generalities and moan that minorities are given an unfair advantage, whilst plenty of people have given you concrete examples that show how minorities are at a disadvantage from the very start.

Until you understand this latter concept, I don't quite see how you're going to have an open discussion about this issue with anybody. Unless you want everyone to agree with your assertion that white people are suffering and are being discriminated against...

Kittensol; for you to accuse me of speaking in generalities is a bit ironic. Please, give me concrete examples of why you feel that keeping races seperate is any way to unify this country? And please show me where I said white people are suffering. We are being treated unequally when applying for college. HM is on the admissions board, and if you'd care to speak to Him tonight, I'm sure we could arrange (a very polite) phone call.
I call you my 'hit and run' poster, because you come in here, say something inflamnatory (and talk about generalizations!) and leave. I'd love to have a true open and honest debate with you, in which you actually respond to what I say rather than what you hear.

_____________________________

~Christina

A nice girl with a disturbing hobby

My femdom findom blog: http://www.MistressAvarice.com

(in reply to kittinSol)

RE: Racist - 3/17/2008 7:30:02 AM

Posts: 9318
Joined: 11/3/2005
From: Kentucky
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

"So until we eradicate every bigot in the U.S"

You agreed with me that it`s discrimination that`s holding African Americans back.Thanks for that,at least.

I don`t think it`s possible to completely eliminate bigotry and racism.That`s not realistic.

But there are many things that can be done by law and voluntarily.

Ending the practice of automatically accepting the children of alumni at collages and universities (which is white/rich affirmative action)would be a good start.

Let them compete on the same level as everyone else.We`ll keep the George Bushs of the world out of Yale and Harvard this way.

The children of the rich have enough advantage in life without white affirmative action at Yale,Princeton Univ.,etc.

Ending red-lining and other institutional racism would be a worthy and attainable goal as well,if there was a will and acknowledgment that a problem exists.

Making it un-profitable to pay women less for the same work and job performance is a way to break the glass ceiling.

These are certainly realist goals .

But ignorance, denial and poor leadership won`t get us there.

Of course there is racism and bigotry. From every race to every other race. Many are too insecure to see that we are all the 'human' race, hence, they have to consider their race the best, and all others inferior.

But why should the black child of a rich attorney get more 'points' in college admissions than the white son of a janitor, if they both have the exact same test scores, gpa's, community work, etc?

I doubt we'll ever get rid of the alumnae thing only because those are the people the colleges beg every year for more $$. Not that it wouldn't be a nice goal.

I find it rather ironic that because I want equality for all, there will be those who have read the words I have written, and call me a racist. I find it irritating that every one posting on this board (for the most part) has the best of intentions, but can't hear what others are saying. I find it sad that after all these years, race, and the division of races is still such a divisive issue.

_____________________________

~Christina

A nice girl with a disturbing hobby

My femdom findom blog: http://www.MistressAvarice.com

(in reply to Owner59)

RE: Racist - 3/17/2008 7:31:16 AM

Rule

Posts: 10479
Joined: 12/5/2005
Status: offline

FR

Complaints about discrimination will end when all complainants convert to Goreanism.

(in reply to xxblushesxx)

RE: Racist - 3/17/2008 7:41:16 AM

Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: xxblushesxx

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

"So until we eradicate every bigot in the U.S"

You agreed with me that it`s discrimination that`s holding African Americans back.Thanks for that,at least.

I don`t think it`s possible to completely eliminate bigotry and racism.That`s not realistic.

But there are many things that can be done by law and voluntarily.

Ending the practice of automatically accepting the children of alumni at collages and universities (which is white/rich affirmative action)would be a good start.

Let them compete on the same level as everyone else.We`ll keep the George Bushs of the world out of Yale and Harvard this way.

The children of the rich have enough advantage in life without white affirmative action at Yale,Princeton Univ.,etc.

Ending red-lining and other institutional racism would be a worthy and attainable goal as well,if there was a will and acknowledgment that a problem exists.

Making it un-profitable to pay women less for the same work and job performance is a way to break the glass ceiling.

These are certainly realist goals .

But ignorance, denial and poor leadership won`t get us there.

Of course there is racism and bigotry. From every race to every other race. Many are too insecure to see that we are all the 'human' race, hence, they have to consider their race the best, and all others inferior.

But why should the black child of a rich attorney get more 'points' in college admissions than the white son of a janitor, if they both have the exact same test scores, gpa's, community work, etc?

I doubt we'll ever get rid of the alumnae thing only because those are the people the colleges beg every year for more $$. Not that it wouldn't be a nice goal.

I find it rather ironic that because I want equality for all, there will be those who have read the words I have written, and call me a racist. I find it irritating that every one posting on this board (for the most part) has the best of intentions, but can't hear what others are saying. I find it sad that after all these years, race, and the division of races is still such a divisive issue.

call me a racist.

Don`t be defensive.

No one has said that.This is an open discussion (so far).

We can discuss this sore issue w/ out debate killing names like that.I hope.

I don`t think anyone`s thinking your defending the present situation either.

For me anyway,it`s puzzlement that people want to ignore the issue in hopes that it goes away.

This is not a good approach.

Just like with oral health,ignoring problems will only make your problems worse.

(in reply to xxblushesxx)

RE: Racist - 3/17/2008 7:44:20 AM

Posts: 16926
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

Just like with oral health,ignoring problems will only make your problems worse.

What brought that one on

?

_____________________________

(in reply to Owner59)

RE: Racist - 3/17/2008 7:47:17 AM

Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

Just like with oral health,ignoring problems will only make your problems worse.

What brought that one on ?

<rim shot>

I wanted to see who would jump at it 1st.lol

You don`t disappoint,do you kittin?

(in reply to kittinSol)

RE: Racist - 3/17/2008 7:51:38 AM

Rule

Posts: 10479
Joined: 12/5/2005
Status: offline

To which I add: I call on all sanctimonious bleeding hearts to start a foundation to translate the Gor series by John Norman into all the languages of the world and to hand out free copies of the series to anyone that complains about discrimination. There: I solved the problem.

(in reply to Rule)

RE: Racist - 3/17/2008 7:52:19 AM

Posts: 9318
Joined: 11/3/2005
From: Kentucky
Status: offline

And I actually meant in their hearts, not on the boards.
I don't wish to speak of dental issues at this time...
*lol*

_____________________________

~Christina

A nice girl with a disturbing hobby

My femdom findom blog: http://www.MistressAvarice.com

(in reply to Owner59)

RE: Racist - 3/17/2008 7:59:37 AM

Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

To which I add: I call on all sanctimonious bleeding hearts to start a foundation to translate the Gor series by John Norman into all the languages of the world and to hand out free copies of the series to anyone that complains about discrimination. There: I solved the problem.

so so helpful.

(in reply to Rule)

RE: Racist - 3/17/2008 8:07:52 AM

Posts: 16926
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: xxblushesxx

And I actually meant in their hearts, not on the boards.

What's in my heart is a profound disgust for the state of racial relations in America today. What's in my heart is that much work remains to be done. What's in my heart is that I am still amazed when I see the discrimination and division that "race" has created in this country. What's in my heart is horror at the fixation people have on skin colour. What's in my heart is that racism is wrong, and that everything should be done to eradicate that plague from our society. What's in my heart is that it's still a lot easier to be a white person in America today, in the XXIth Century. What's in my heart is that it is wrong that white people should be privileged over others because of institutional racism and bigotry.

What's in my heart is that it doesn't matter what's in anybody's heart. Sentimentality will not solve the issues at hand. We have to consider them with the cold gaze of the rational mind. Minorities are still discriminated against in many areas of this society: passivity won't make the changes that are necessary to make America a more just and fair country. And affirmative action might scare some people, but it's certainly not going to kill them. Nor will it take away their right to vote. Or their favoured position in the justice system. Or... the list is endless.

_____________________________

(in reply to xxblushesxx)

RE: Racist - 3/17/2008 8:14:07 AM

Posts: 9318
Joined: 11/3/2005
From: Kentucky
Status: offline

"still amazed when I see the discrimination and division that "race" has created in this country. What's in my heart is horror at the fixation people have on skin colour. What's in my heart is that racism is wrong, and that everything should be done to eradicate that plague from our society."

Precisely why I am against using race as a basis for any type of incentives. We want the same thing, but I feel reverse discrimination is just...discrimination. You don't. That is where we part company.

_____________________________

~Christina

A nice girl with a disturbing hobby

My femdom findom blog: http://www.MistressAvarice.com

(in reply to kittinSol)

RE: Racist - 3/17/2008 8:45:07 AM

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Joined: 10/23/2007
Status: offline

The university system in the UK is not permitted to use positive discrimination, neither are the faculties dependent on donations from Alumni intent on placing their offspring. However, the countries top universities (the Russell Group) which receive additional Government funding, are predominantly white. Poorer candidates are entitled to assistance, regardless of race. Yet still studies show that black candidates with identical exam results are not selected by the top Unis, who continue to enrol the children of well-to-do, white parents in disproportionate numbers.

Rather than decry the class system that denies them opportunity, poorer whites increasingly blame a culture which they think offers an advantage to blacks, when that is the opposite of the truth. Scapegoats are back in fashion, if they were ever out.

A note to blushes - I tend to think your boyfriend has black colleagues who oppose his views, which does negate their repeated airing as gospel.

(in reply to xxblushesxx)

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