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RE: Interesting Quotes from Obama's Pastor - 3/23/2008 12:04:25 PM

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According to the Census Bureau (which is amazingly easy to find on the Internet), in 2006 Idaho had about an 86% white population. Here in the valley though, around the greater Boise metropolitan area, the Hispanic community is highly evident and it's growing very rapidly. There's this thing going on called "illegal immigration". Perhaps you've heard of it? Our "undocumented workers" aren't always counted in the census either, and so I'm guessing that our Hispanic population around Ada and Canyon counties has to be closer to 35%, with their numbers highly concentrated in certain areas.

[/quote]

Run for the hills Ma Baker. Everytime the caucasion ratios decreases god kills a kitten and mothers put esspresso in their baby's bottles. Sounds to me like some white fear.... what if we aren't the majority race anymore (heavens!). And by the way, the census counts undocumented people too.

(in reply to Sanity)

RE: Interesting Quotes from Obama's Pastor - 3/23/2008 12:07:52 PM

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You fail to understand. I do not compare. I will not compare. I will not say that one man suffers more, I will not say another man suffers less.

Comparison perpetuates the problem. Say a man suffers less and you dismiss his pain. Say a man suffers less and you render acceptable the fact that he is suffering. When you justify one man's suffering, you pave the way to justify any suffering.

What of history? It is past. It is over. It is done. Leave the dead to bury their own dead.

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RE: Interesting Quotes from Obama's Pastor - 3/23/2008 12:12:20 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

What of history? It is past. It is over. It is done. Leave the dead to bury their own dead.

That would be convient and ultimately get white people everywhere off the hook. I do want to clarify one thing -- this is not an either/or, this is not it's either individual racism or institutional racism. Both exist, both are damaging. The difference is that insitutional racism and white priviledge are meant to be covert, we are meant to never acknowledge it, therefore it is very powerful. A jackass racist I know how to deal with that.... difficult, messy, history-repeating-itself, systems bigger than me racism.... now that's hard. The past haunts us.... we read the past in our current story... it hasn't left. I'll be happy when we're past this... it's just that we aren't.

(in reply to celticlord2112)

RE: Interesting Quotes from Obama's Pastor - 3/23/2008 12:13:56 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: giveeverything

quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

What of history? It is past. It is over. It is done. Leave the dead to bury their own dead.

That would be convient and ultimately get white people everywhere off the hook. I do want to clarify one thing -- this is not an either/or, this is not it's either individual racism or institutional racism. Both exist, both are damaging. The difference is that insitutional racism and white priviledge are meant to be covert, we are meant to never acknowledge it, therefore it is very powerful. A jackass racist I know how to deal with that.... difficult, messy, history-repeating-itself, systems bigger than me racism.... now that's hard. The past haunts us.... we read the past in our current story... it hasn't left. I'll be happy when we're past this... it's just that we aren't.

There is no institutional racism. There is only individual racism. That is the error of your argument.

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RE: Interesting Quotes from Obama's Pastor - 3/23/2008 12:15:24 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

There is no institutional racism. There is only individual racism. That is the error of your argument.

You have yet to prove me wrong on this. You saying there isn't institutional racism doesn't make it so.

edited to add these examples:
Examples from U.S. history can help clarify the nature and effects of institutional racism.

In 1935, the U.S. Congress passed the Social Security Act, guaranteeing an income for millions of workers after retirement. However, the Act specifically excluded domestic and agricultural workers, many of whom were Mexican-American, African-American, and Asian-American. These workers were therefore not guaranteed an income after retirement, and had less opportunity to save, accumulate, and pass wealth on to future generations.
The U.S. property appraisal system created in the 1930s tied property value and eligibility for government loans to race. Thus, all-White neighborhoods received the government's highest property value ratings, and White people were eligible for government loans. Between 1934 and 1962, less than 2% of government-subsidized housing went to non-White people.[2]

These examples depend not on the individual, isolated, and idiosyncratic beliefs or biases of individuals, but rather on biases embedded in social structures and in institutions. Moreover, in the first example, no "race" was specifically named to be excluded from the Social Security Act, but the Act effectively allowed wealth benefits to accrue to certain racial groups and not to others. There need not be, therefore, any explicit intent associated with institutional racism in order for it to benefit certain races over others.
The use of standardized testing has also been termed institutional racism by some commentators, who claim that this kind of assessment is significantly biased towards people of a certain cultural and social background, with the supposed result that in much of the Western world racial minorities tend to score lower. Detractors of this view point out that the tests are usually intended to determine the aptitude of the candidate for the subject that is being tested, and if it so happens that a particular racial minority has a lower than average aptitude (just as if a particular racial minority has a higher than average aptitude) then that is simply a fact and as such cannot be racist, institutionally or otherwise.
Charges of institutional racism have been applied to other governmental, social, and educational policies as well. For example, institutionalized racism affects general health care as well as acquired immunodeficiency syndrome (AIDS) health intervention and services in minority communities. The over-representation of minorities in various disease categories, including AIDS, is partially related to racism. The national response to the AIDS epidemic in minority communities has been slow, showing an insensitivity to ethnic diversity in prevention efforts and AIDS health services

< Message edited by giveeverything -- 3/23/2008 12:17:56 PM >

(in reply to celticlord2112)

RE: Interesting Quotes from Obama's Pastor - 3/23/2008 12:19:44 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: giveeverything

quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

There is no institutional racism. There is only individual racism. That is the error of your argument.

You have yet to prove me wrong on this. You saying there isn't institutional racism doesn't make it so.

I have proven you wrong. Read again.

Edited to add:

Your "proofs" are those of individuals acting.

< Message edited by celticlord2112 -- 3/23/2008 12:24:35 PM >

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RE: Interesting Quotes from Obama's Pastor - 3/23/2008 12:21:01 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

I have proven you wrong. Read again.

Naw... but we all know that reality has a liberal bias (thanks you Colbert, my hero).

edited to add: you proven that well meaning people can often no wrap their minds around their own culpability. It's a hard thing to do and takes a lot of courage.

< Message edited by giveeverything -- 3/23/2008 12:22:59 PM >

(in reply to celticlord2112)

RE: Interesting Quotes from Obama's Pastor - 3/23/2008 12:27:46 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

Edited to add:

Your "proofs" are those of individuals acting.

Hits head with palm of hand. I added some more examples... and yes individuals make policies that turn into insitutions that perpetuate racism that good people who, without thinking, go along with.....

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RE: Interesting Quotes from Obama's Pastor - 3/23/2008 12:28:08 PM

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????

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RE: Interesting Quotes from Obama's Pastor - 3/23/2008 12:30:01 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: giveeverything
Hits head with palm of hand. I added some more examples... and yes individuals make policies that turn into insitutions that perpetuate racism that good people who, without thinking, go along with.....

EXACTLY

Individuals act. Individuals fail to act.

Good people should think more. Good people should act more.

Thank you for finally acknowledging my thesis.

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(in reply to giveeverything)

RE: Interesting Quotes from Obama's Pastor - 3/23/2008 12:31:18 PM

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No, Hispanic means Spain and anywhere Spain colonized, imposing its language (parts of Africa, Asia, and the Americas) and hauling in slaves. Hispanic is more of a language group (speaking Spanish or ancestors recently spoke Spanish), not a race. Hispanics can be of any color or ethnic origin. Interestingly most Hispanic Americans in the last census self identify as white, as apperantly so do most Mexicans.

Hispanic people can be any hue or color.

In racial catagorization schemes, like Afirmative Action, ect, has to collect data on race to function. Whites and Hispanic whites are often broken down seperatly, because hispanic whites often appear non white to Average Americans (of all colors) and face discrimination. It would be like if in the old days there was Afirmative action, they would have catagorised Irish in a similar way. "White" but not part of the main. Or as I have been called for my bit of Jewish heratige "Not Exactly White", which isn't a paticularly great catagory for a child in Mississippi. But was far better than "kill Haole days" I experienced later in Hawaii. It does suck very much when people you see as friends join in a crowd yelling "kill that Haole'! Fuck him up!!" Then winning a fair fight to get jumped by 3 people. Yet at other times I have been very aware that I recieved huge benefits from White Priviledge". That is absolutly real.

It all is very grey, not really black and white. I have ancestors that were white plantation slave owners, I have ancestors who died in Auswitch. I have ancestors that walked in Virginia a thousand years ago. And I have Blue eyes. I have ancestors raped by the Mongol hoards in Poland. We all have ancestors that owned slaves, and who were owned as slaves. All of us. We all have ancestors that raped and pilllaged for emprire, and that were raped and pillaged for someone elses Empire, in just one generation, they can become the same. Also, every single one of has a Maternal Ancestor that lied about who the daddy was....

Personally, I think America for all of its glaring faults, has been the prime driver of Equality, and this whole idea of the multi culture. American-ism has been the most effective, alternative to mono culturism (which is virtually always fake) the world has ever really seen. Sure the Moslem empire were huge, and covered many cultures, but there was not even a hint of equality among them. Same goes for the Romans or British, or the Chinese, Aztec, Soviet, you name it.

We haven't fully lived up to our ideals, but we are getting there. "GOD DAMN AMERICA"? That Wright is not rotting in a jail cell being tortured for preaching that, is evidence that he is wrong. Wrights hiding in a seperatism/Identity is wrong and backwards. Most of the People in his congregation have more than African based blood in them, why only celebreate the Black? Why teach to reject the ancestors? That is the root of any African based structure, as well as any indeginous group, and all major religions. Honor your Ancestors....ALL of them. Every "white" person has some "black" in them. Every "black" person has some "white", ect ect. We all need to recognize and respect that we all have the same ancestors. Ultimatley the exact same.

I think it is poor teaching and damaging to the recipients,

and don't like seeing Obama only reject it for Political Expediance.

(in reply to DaddyPostsgirl)

RE: Interesting Quotes from Obama's Pastor - 3/23/2008 12:37:59 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

ORIGINAL: giveeverything
Hits head with palm of hand. I added some more examples... and yes individuals make policies that turn into insitutions that perpetuate racism that good people who, without thinking, go along with.....

EXACTLY

Individuals act. Individuals fail to act.

Good people should think more. Good people should act more.

Thank you for finally acknowledging my thesis.

and to finish that thought since you weren't able to.... ta da... this is how racism becomes institutionalized. You're very invested in the idea that it all boils down to individuals without complicating factors like societal influences, community standards, etc. Not sure why..... but that kind of thinking only reinforces the institutions... so good luck with that. As for this convo.. I'm out of here.

(in reply to celticlord2112)

RE: Interesting Quotes from Obama's Pastor - 3/23/2008 12:48:59 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: giveeverything
You're very invested in the idea that it all boils down to individuals without complicating factors like societal influences, community standards, etc. Not sure why..... but that kind of thinking only reinforces the institutions... so good luck with that.

Accountability. I alone answer for what I do. Societal influences do not make my sins any less. Community standards do not excuse my faults.

Influences change, standards change, when individuals "...take arms against a sea of troubles, and by opposing, end them."

In time, you will learn this. It is the order of things.

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RE: Interesting Quotes from Obama's Pastor - 3/23/2008 12:51:35 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112
In time, you will learn this.

Did you mean to be so condescending?

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RE: Interesting Quotes from Obama's Pastor - 3/23/2008 12:52:47 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: giveeverything

That would be convient and ultimately get white people everywhere off the hook....

Exactly. Affirmative Action is bag of crap is designed to serve white guilt, not blacks.

So turning to other readers, while these white folks here argue about their plans for you, I'd like to ask a question of black people themselves.

Do you want your people's future to be that you succeeded in this country by standing on your own two feet, proudly taking your well-earned place beside all the other groups who made it here against long hard odds, or do want a cookie? I'm asking because there's a lot of white folks here who think you poor things need their "help" to succeed. I'm also asking because, personally, I'd feel strongly inclined to inform these white assholes that black people are perfectly capable of doing just fine without their help, so thank you very much and fuck off.

That's just me, of course. But I've heard a lot of talk over the years about Black Pride. If you want to end up with a shred of any left, now would be a good time to trot it out.

K.

< Message edited by Kirata -- 3/23/2008 12:54:32 PM >

(in reply to giveeverything)

RE: Interesting Quotes from Obama's Pastor - 3/23/2008 12:55:23 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: giveeverything

quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112
In time, you will learn this.

Did you mean to be so condescending?

Would you rather I dismiss your potential for learning and growth out of hand?

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RE: Interesting Quotes from Obama's Pastor - 3/23/2008 12:56:47 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

So turning to other readers, while these white folks here argue about their plans for you, I'd like to ask a question of black people themselves.

Bullshit! I'm confronting, as a white person, racisism and priviledge. It's more moral obligation. I'm not deteming anything for anybody. I am however very invested in creating a more equitable society.

(in reply to Kirata)

RE: Interesting Quotes from Obama's Pastor - 3/23/2008 12:58:03 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

ORIGINAL: giveeverything

quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112
In time, you will learn this.

Did you mean to be so condescending?

Would you rather I dismiss your potential for learning and growth out of hand?

I'd prefer that you weren't condescending!

(in reply to celticlord2112)

RE: Interesting Quotes from Obama's Pastor - 3/23/2008 1:00:54 PM

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ORIGINAL: giveeverything
Bullshit! I'm confronting, as a white person, racisism and priviledge. It's more moral obligation. I'm not deteming anything for anybody. I am however very invested in creating a more equitable society.

You absolve individual sin with institutional guilt. That is a determination.

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RE: Interesting Quotes from Obama's Pastor - 3/23/2008 1:01:16 PM

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Thanks for the non sequitor. I'm just teasing Sanity b/c he claimed to be a victim of racism himself, which is kind of funny considering where he's from.

(in reply to Mercnbeth)

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