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RE: The Human Race 2 - 3/20/2008 7:16:01 PM

Rule

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quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1
Rule do you think there might be a correlation between the few challenges to your ideas and lack of evidence against them, and the number of people you have blocked?

No, I do not think that there is such a correlation. There are lots of people that do not agree with me that I do not have on hidden. Besides, a lot of the people whoms posts I have on hidden are on that list because of use of an illegible font.

< Message edited by Rule -- 3/20/2008 7:23:40 PM >

(in reply to luckydog1)

Post #: 81

RE: The Human Race 2 - 3/20/2008 7:18:21 PM

Rule

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Joined: 12/5/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1
Dogs are one type of Cannine. Wolves, Hyenas, and a few other critters are from the same Familly.

Actually the hyena is more closely related to the family of the cats, or so I have been told.

(in reply to luckydog1)

Post #: 82

RE: The Human Race 2 - 3/20/2008 8:15:21 PM

luckydog1

Posts: 2736
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yep, I got it all mixed up on dogs. Hyenas are closer to cats than to canines. Closest to mongeese and weasles.

dogs, wolves, foxes, coyotes, dingoes, jackals, and lycaons. are all caninds. Hyenas, not on that list.

(in reply to Rule)

Post #: 83

RE: The Human Race 2 - 3/20/2008 8:23:37 PM

Hippiekinkster

Posts: 5512
Joined: 11/20/2007
From: Liechtenstein
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quote:

ORIGINAL: xxblushesxx

ok, the last word is this; people are people. We all have faults flaws and problems. Certain 'races' have been known to have faults flaws and problems. Like...well...I'm French...I drink too much and love sex. (and food) We're also supposed to be skinny.
Huh.
That one must have missed me.
I do like croissants, wine and cheese though... *lol*
There are good people and bad people of every race, creed and colour.
Can ANYONE please tell me why we have to treat different races, creeds and colours different from others?

Termin8tor is closer to the concept of phenotypical groupings with his use of the word "population" that the word "race" is.

Think of the ways the word population can be used.
>the citizens of a geographical area (country, city, etc)
>the citizens of an area who have blond hair (Phenotype)
>those citizens of that area who profess Hinduism
>the number of dogs in that area
and so on.
Maybe this will help: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population
(it's a habit I will not shake; whether someone agrees with me or not, perhaps some info in a link I give will be useful to that person)

The geographical area selected is arbitrary. For instance, most of Turkey is considered to be in Asia, geographically. Politically, it's in Europe. Some Turks have the sickle-cell trait, which is associated in the US with African-Americans. So one could say accurately that some Europeans who live in Asia have a "black" genetic trait.
Reportedly, there are blue-eyed blonde natives of Iran and Afghanistan. http://www.iranian.com/main/blog/kamangir/blond-blue-eyed-iranians (I haven't seen for myself) Seems geographical location isn't a very reliable predictor of phenotype.

Getting back to your question, blushes, well, we DON'T have to treat some people differently than others. In an ideal society, wherein surface traits such as skin color, ethnic identity, religion, sex (yes, I know sex is a fundamental difference; it is also an instant identifier, and one of the ways in which people discriminate) are irrelevant, it would be unnecessary. However, we do not live in such a society.

I'm going to use the word "traitism" instead of "racism", since it is accurate.

So how should we try and achieve such a society? Ask people nicely to not discriminate? I don't think that has ever worked. Pass laws against traitism? Well, we have those. Quite a few. Somehow, some people are able to circumvent those laws. Google "redlining". Credit scoring is the new redlining. Those laws aren't as effective as they could be, if people supported their necessity.

So, what other methods are available to help "level the playing field"? (really dislike that metaphor) Maybe programs to help the kids who are the indirect (or even direct) victims of traitism have some good nutrition, so they can develop normally and learn more in school. Maybe some assistance with daycare so mothers can hold down productive jobs and get some additional education. Maybe some mortgage assistance to help offset the dispicable practice of redlining. maybe some tuition assistance so poor kids can get into college. Maybe some guidelines for hiring to help offset the "good old boys' network". (Oh, it's real, it exists) Maybe some penalties with teeth in them for discrimination. Maybe ending the corrupt practice of "racial profiling" so cops and lawyers aren't filling the jails with minorities.

If people were going to do the right thing and actually follow the Golden Rule (like their religions tell them to; the vast majority, anyway), traitism would be almost gone. But people don't do the right thing (collectively); they either need to be forced to, or they need to be forced to accept some form of affirmative action.

That's how I see things. I grew up in a Traitist house with traitist neighbors and relatives. I changed. I came to understand that I have an unearned advantage based on nothing more than the amount of pigment I have in my skin. I came to understand that is wrong. It's not possible for me to walk in, say, my buddy Randall's or Domiguy's shoes, but I can sure as hell try. I owe them that simply because they are fellow Humans, and because they are still being discriminated against in ways I can't even begin to see.

That's how I see things.

(in reply to xxblushesxx)

Post #: 84

RE: The Human Race 2 - 3/20/2008 9:14:40 PM

DomKen

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From: Chicago, IL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1
While it is scientifically accepted that Mankind originated in Africa, Is there any evidence that they were black? People have done quite a bit of moving around over the millenia.

No. We're not absolutely sure but the available evidence indicates it is likely.

First off the people in the area where the species originated and where most of humanity's genetic diversity still resides are black.

Second our closest relatives, the 2 species of chimps and the 2 species of gorilla, are black. Our next closest relatives, the 2 species of orangutan, are more light skinned but would still probably be called black on a person. That strongly suggests that the last common ancestor of chimp, gorillas and man was dark skinned. It also strongly suggests that the LCA of chimps and humans was black as well. Which strongly suggests that the human line since the split with chimps was black until after H sapiens radiated out of east Africa.

(in reply to luckydog1)

Post #: 85

RE: The Human Race 2 - 3/20/2008 9:36:31 PM

DomKen

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quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave
You are perpetuating the Lamarkian fallacy, as I pointed out to LadyE.
As it currently stands Natural Selection teaches that environment does not drive evolutionary change.

Sorry to have to say this but many of those who are committed to Natural Selection actually dont understand it at all.

Time to make sure no one actually believes what you shoveling again.

Evolution has two important factors. Genetic variation is the first. All populations contain individuals with different alleles caused by mutation of the genome over time. Second of course is natural selection which simply put is the environment, in all of its forms, working to filter which individuals in a population reproduce.

The classic example is the Peppered Moth from Britain in the latter part of the 19th century. The moths were mostly a light white or grey with darker marking which served to camoflauge them from birds while they rested on the upper branches of trees during the day.. The trees in question were light gray with darker lichen growing on them. During the 19th century factories spewed forth a great deal of soot which tended to settle on everything including the trees. As a result the tree branches became much darker and the moths with the predominant collor scheme stood out quite clearly and were therefore subject to greater predation. An almost completely black variant of the moth had always been around which had had a hard time reproducing since it would stand out clearly on the pre industrial light trees. In the mid to late 19th century however these moths now blended in quite well and were able to survive to reproduce more easily than the lighter variant. The dark morph became the most common variety of the moth until pollution standards were tightened, trees got lighter again and the light morph once again became the most common.

So while environment does not drive evolution in the Lamarckian sense of acquired characters of individuals being passed down the environment does work to filter a population's genetic diversity to make the population more fit for that environment.

(in reply to seeksfemslave)

Post #: 86

RE: The Human Race 2 - 3/20/2008 9:55:35 PM

luckydog1

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Thank you for the consice answer Dom ken.

In your moth example, are they different species, that look very similar? Or one population of interbreeding moths with a variety of colors?

Did the descendants of the White moths turn Black, then back to white, or did the numbers of white moths shrink while the numbers of Black moths grew, then the opposite happened?

(in reply to DomKen)

Post #: 87

RE: The Human Race 2 - 3/20/2008 10:43:01 PM

Termyn8or

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Joined: 11/12/2005
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So let's get to the facts.

1. Two humans develped somehow in the world. We are all their children and therefore inbred.

a. When it was time to go to the land of Nod there must have been no people there.

2. I am going to start eating what a football player eats, because we are all the same under the skin.

a. I will pick a White one because otherwise I might lose my knuckle dragging license. This is Ohio you know.

I had an interesting talk with my father, actually many, but tonight was more. But even in the past, he said straight out that we Polacks are not White. He is the historian and geographical guy in the family. He really should go on Jeopardy. Even on Millionaire he beats the question, by that I mean he already has the answer before the choices are given.

It turns out that my skin might be white, but that might not prove a thing. Poland=Persia=Aryanna. Something like that.

He knows alot more about the subject than I and I wish I could bring him in here, for subjects like this. Studying these things are a passion of his. He has told me, not in so many words, that a country of origin is not necessarily race, among a few other things of course.

All I know is that all of us have alot to learn.

T

(in reply to DomKen)

Post #: 88

RE: The Human Race 2 - 3/20/2008 11:07:13 PM

DomKen

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From: Chicago, IL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

So let's get to the facts.

1. Two humans develped somehow in the world. We are all their children and therefore inbred.

No. A population of hominids, H erectus or one of a range of possible successor species, living in east Africa evolved into the first H sapiens. There wouldn't have been a sharp line between one generation and the next.

quote:

2. I am going to start eating what a football player eats, because we are all the same under the skin.

I hope you get as much exercise as the football player gets or you might need new pants.

quote:

I had an interesting talk with my father, actually many, but tonight was more. But even in the past, he said straight out that we Polacks are not White. He is the historian and geographical guy in the family. He really should go on Jeopardy. Even on Millionaire he beats the question, by that I mean he already has the answer before the choices are given.

It turns out that my skin might be white, but that might not prove a thing. Poland=Persia=Aryanna. Something like that.

He knows alot more about the subject than I and I wish I could bring him in here, for subjects like this. Studying these things are a passion of his. He has told me, not in so many words, that a country of origin is not necessarily race, among a few other things of course.

All I know is that all of us have alot to learn.

T

Slavs first appear in written history, teh 6th century CE, right where they are now, central and eastern Europe. Genetic studies indicate all but some of the southern slavs, Serbs, Bosnians, Macedonians and others, are from the Dneiper river basin in the Ukraine.

(in reply to Termyn8or)

Post #: 89

RE: The Human Race 2 - 3/20/2008 11:34:30 PM

NorthernGent

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

Think of the human race as dogs. Are you a cocker spaniel or a german sheperd ? Or a welch korgie ?

You've got dogs as big as a friggin house almost, and other breeds that would have to run from a cat. My buddy has a miniture dauschund, is he less of a dog than my other buddy's 100lb. chocolate lab ?

We make no bones about the differences in dog breeds, we recognize them and if our pets, must accomodate them. But they are all dogs. Inspect the lab's ears, and watch those korgies when they are young, they will eat the tile off the floor.

These are traits. We can speak of these traits in dogs but not in humans. Somebody will jump up and start shouting "Racist racist" . They will be adamant that we are all the same under the skin, a fallacy that is fucking up what little good could come from medical science.

I can't agree with your central premise.

You're talking of the characteristics of dogs, and equating them with inherent difference.

There is nothing, absolutely nothing, with respect to knowledge that suggests human groups are inherently different. You're into the realms of illusion - like believing in god, or an inner soul, or an inherent human nature (none of which are remotely tangible).

There is nothing on this plant to suggest that we (all of us - from Africa to Europe) are born with anything more than a blank mind that is open to influence from environmental factors.

I'm open to ideas, T, so if you can provide some substantial, empirical evidence to suggest we're inherently different, I'll go along with you; otherwise, you're in the realms of magic and illusion.

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to Termyn8or)

Post #: 90

RE: The Human Race 2 - 3/20/2008 11:43:35 PM

Termyn8or

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And those people have the exact same body chemistry as let's say a Japanese person ?

I know nobody said that.

But my original point was that even if different populations developed in and came from very different climates, we are the same according to "science".

According to some people the Inuits are the same as the Brazilians. The Swedes are the same as the Chinese. All the same under the skin.

If racial ethnicity was considered in modern medical research we would gain by leaps and bounds. But that would be politically incorrect.

Now according to Mod 11 here, I am not allowed to hijack my own thread, but the title of the thread is right up there.

Define the human race in 25 words or less.Iin your own words.

Define an animal in your own words.

No textbooks, no quotes, IN YOUR OWN WORDS.

C'mon, somebody has to be able to do it.

T

(in reply to DomKen)

Post #: 91

RE: The Human Race 2 - 3/21/2008 12:11:23 AM

Hippiekinkster

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From: Liechtenstein
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If one examines the research on genes, race, and disease more closely, most research points only to a correlation of genes to disease, which is significantly different from a gene-based disease. Genes may predispose a person to certain health ailments, but health conditions are a combination of environment, lifestyle impositions, personal decisions, and access to affordable, quality health care. As geneticist Francis Collins observes, "associations often made between race and disease only occasionally have anything to do with DNA [and] most diseases are not single-locus genetic diseases and often are quite complex, involving many genetic loci as well as environmental factors."
http://geneticsandsociety.org/article.php?id=3885

Several teams of scientists have found that there are more genetic differences among Africans from different regions, for example, than there are between Africans and Europeans.

< Message edited by Hippiekinkster -- 3/21/2008 12:14:40 AM >

(in reply to Termyn8or)

Post #: 92

RE: The Human Race 2 - 3/21/2008 12:18:02 AM

Hippiekinkster

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Humans have a very narrow range in which their biochemistry and genetics vary,

(in reply to Termyn8or)

Post #: 93

RE: The Human Race 2 - 3/21/2008 2:26:15 AM

RealityLicks

Posts: 1615
Joined: 10/23/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: xxblushesxx

Ok..I'll give you that.
But...how does that help make the case you're trying to make? (I haven't been keeping up with the thread, so, don't even know what it is)
But, to belittle another's intelligence instead of answering their comments, seems to me to make your own comments less compelling.

My comment on most of the content of the thread is that it is ill-informed at best and plain stupid at worst. Just how many "debates" based on the flawed premise of genetic determinism can we stand in the space of just a few days?

Some here set themselves up as experts not just on areas of genetics of which they clearly know little but also as arbiters on how and what I can say. Picking an example at random, someone attributed great relevance to breeding programmes in the period of chattel slavery. Well, hardly any such activity took place until the abolition of the transatlantic slave trade - slaveholders relied on buying imported slaves. Only 60 years later, slavery was abolished - how many generations can be born and grow to puberty in that time? And affect genetic populations? There were slave-breeders, of course but they went for numbers first, in order to make as much money as soon as possible - and frequently impregnating these women themselves. That lack of rigour on one hand and the obvious racist motives of others makes real participation in the "debate" pointless.

Any pile of nonsense can be presented as fact but then when challenged the poster will disappear or claim some terrible personal slight, all the while failing to ever respond to direct challenges to their arguments. So I can't take their posts seriously. That's not arrogance on my part, it's the simple knowledge that anybody who truly wants to know about these subjects will visit a bookshop or library and find out about it, not try and learn from an internet thread - at least not this one.

So if you see me being caustic to anybody, it's generally either because they act similarly towards me or else because they espouse offensive racist beliefs. I do not belittle these people, they do it to themselves and you can rely on this; that anyone who judges another's character or ability on "racial" bases receives no respect from me.

(in reply to xxblushesxx)

Post #: 94

RE: The Human Race 2 - 3/21/2008 3:07:25 AM

seeksfemslave

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Reality:

quote:

that anyone who judges another's character or ability on "racial" bases receives no respect from me.

If I said that it is unlikely to the point of certainty that a white sprinter will win the 100 metres in the forthcoming Olympics
or
A Black Afro Caribbean will not win the marathon
Would you consider me a racist and not respect me? Only arskin'

More importantly would you bet against me ?
If so Faites vos Jours he he he he he I like to make easy money!

Why of the worlds population of top flight physicists are most not...well you know what most are not as well as I do.
So the current racial categories can be used to make accurate predictions and that my son is about as scientific as it is possible to get NO?

< Message edited by seeksfemslave -- 3/21/2008 3:52:05 AM >

(in reply to RealityLicks)

Post #: 95

RE: The Human Race 2 - 3/21/2008 3:18:44 AM

Rule

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That is a good post, RL, except for the last paragraph.

Also a couple of good or excellent posts by DK, and one good post by NG.

(in reply to RealityLicks)

Post #: 96

RE: The Human Race 2 - 3/21/2008 3:21:16 AM

Rule

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You are wrong, Hk, again.

(in reply to Hippiekinkster)

Post #: 97

RE: The Human Race 2 - 3/21/2008 3:25:12 AM

Rule

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Joined: 12/5/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or
Define the human race in 25 words or less. In your own words.

Define an animal in your own words.

No textbooks, no quotes, IN YOUR OWN WORDS.

That is an interesting challenge, T. I have done so once, but meanwhile have forgotten my definitions. I will endeavour to come up with a definition again.

(in reply to Termyn8or)

Post #: 98

RE: The Human Race 2 - 3/21/2008 3:32:57 AM

seeksfemslave

Posts: 4011
Joined: 6/16/2006
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quote:

DomKen
.....caused by mutation of the genome over time.

if mutation means anything it should include an increase in information. Am I right ?

So lets see what your God had to say
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2klREiCejzI

(in reply to seeksfemslave)

Post #: 99

RE: The Human Race 2 - 3/21/2008 3:38:35 AM

Hippiekinkster

Posts: 5512
Joined: 11/20/2007
From: Liechtenstein
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave
If I said that it is unlikely to the point of certainty that a white sprinter will not win the 100 metres in the forthcoming Olympics

Couldn't possibly have anything to do with the fact that the sprint winners' ancestors usually came from higher altitudes, and maybe their bodies utilize oxygen more efficiently, or maybe they have a higher proportion of fast-twitch muscles.

quote:

A Black Afro Caribbean will not win the marathon

Maybe the ancestors of most marathon runners had more endurance, or more slow-twitch muscles.

quote:

Would you consider me a racist and not respect me? Only arskin'

Possibly.

quote:

Why of the worlds population of top flight physicists are most not...well you know what most are not as well as I do.

Maybe the pink-skins had a huge advantage with their almost guaranteed access to edvanced education?

(in reply to seeksfemslave)

Post #: 100

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