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RE: A man's voice should be his own. - 3/18/2008 12:06:20 PM

DomKen

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For those who did not hear the speech in question it's up on youtube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWe7wTVbLUU

It's entirely worth listening to no matter what your preconceptions are.

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RE: A man's voice should be his own. - 3/18/2008 12:07:12 PM

celticlord2112

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

Obama should tell him "I withdraw my family from your church. You and yours will not guide me and mine any more."

Are you unaware that Wright is no longer the pastor at Trinity?

Retirement is not rejection. The church still stands foursquare behind Wright's racist rhetoric.

It is a simple dividing line for me. Obama cannot embrace Wright and be my President. The two conditions are incompatible, and will remain so.

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RE: A man's voice should be his own. - 3/18/2008 12:23:50 PM

philosophy

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..seems to me there are two important dimensions to this topic. The first one we have already touched on...participation. Obama, clearly, has been participating in a church that has, or rather had, as a leader someone whose views on US foreign policy are distinctly european, ie they hold the view that US foreign policy has done nothing to stop 9/11's and rather has made them much more likely. Inciendary stuff in the USA right now. No-one likes to be told they are the partial author of their own misfortune.
McCain seems not to participate in a church run by a gay-hating bigot.

The second issue though is response. We have only briefly touched on this. Obama has responded to his 'spiritual advisor' in public, on the record. One doesn't have to agree with his words to acknowledge that he has done this.
McCain has not responded at all to the words of his 'spiritual advisor' in any public way at all. Instead he has brushed off questions with a blase line about being glad to have the gay-hating bigots support.

Now, everyone knows i have no vote in this, which must be kept in mind.....but i am far more favourably disposed to someone who tries to deal with an embarassment than someone who ignores the embarassment caused by a gay-hating bigot. And we all know why don't we? McCain needs the votes of all the gay-hating bigots to stand a chance. That, to me, is far more reprehensible than Obama not slapping his ex-pastor upside the head.

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RE: A man's voice should be his own. - 3/18/2008 12:26:06 PM

Estring

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He has claimed up until today that he was never present when Pastor Wright said any racist or hateful things. He admitted in his speech today that he was present when some of this stuff was said.
He is trying to walk a fine line and not alienate his black support while reassurring his white support. Just like a politician. Which, contrary to his espousing of "change" he is exactly that. A politician. Same old, same old...

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RE: A man's voice should be his own. - 3/18/2008 12:38:33 PM

DomKen

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth
Unlike Senator Obama, if I discovered a 20 year "close friend" or even "uncle" was a member of the KKK or shared similar beliefs, I wouldn't think that a statement the equivalent of; "He's very nice when he's not wearing his white sheet and hood." would suffice as an explanation.

I want to examine this in more detail.

My eldest cousin, virtually an uncle and the son of my dear aunt, is a racist quite able to make me cringe when he starts talking. Now my aunt raised him by herself from an early age so it isn't unreasonable to surmise that she shares these opinions. He's more than 20 years my senior and his mother is 40 years older than I so I never heard these sentiments from them as a youth. When I visit it is almost always by going to the property they both live on. So how would you find it acceptable to handle it? I'm certainly not about to try and tell him what he can say on his own land. Leaving also seems kind of pointless since the reason I'm down there is to see my family. I've made clear I disagree and always try and move the subject to something less uncomfortable. Am I ineligible to be president simply because two people dear to me hold views I abhor and reject utterly? What action would you consider to be sufficient to allow me to rehabilitate myself enough to be eligible to be POTUS?

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RE: A man's voice should be his own. - 3/18/2008 12:42:53 PM

celticlord2112

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Now given the assumption that it becomes an Obama/McCain race, do you equally condemn McCain's refusal to distance himself from his religious advisors, as described by others in this thread? If not, then i'm afraid i can't take what appears to be a principled stand on your part seriously.
If you do, then how can we compare the two probable candidates responses to their religious embarassments? One tries to address it (for a given value of address), the other just ducks.

I begin by noting that Wright has been Obama's pastor for 20 years. While Hagee's rhetoric is offensive and divisive, I do not see where McCain can plausibly be said to have followed such teachings even for 20 days. Neither Hagee nor any of the other religious right spokesmen have acted as McCain's spiritual teacher. Equating Hagee's personal relevance to McCain with Wright's personal relevance to Obama simply does not withstand scrutiny.

Then I look at the specific remarks themselves. Does Hagee make any comment equivalent to "God Damn America"? So far, I have not found one. Theorizing that Hurricane Katrina was a judgement from God does not strike me as a condemnation. Offensive, yes, controversial, yes, but not condemnatory--it falls short of that. Comparing the two preachings, Wright's is the one that is truly incendiary, even apocalyptic. Wright's stance offers little room for discussion or even compromise. "God damn America" not only divides, but builds a great big chinese wall with Wright's congregation on one side and the rest of America on the other--yes, it disturbs me that much.

Do I thus expect greater and more emphatic refutation from Obama? Yes. Wright is the more divisive, and Wright has a personal relationship with Obama, something that both Hagee and Rod Parlsey lack with McCain. Thus I take Wright's remarks to be far more illuminating about Obama than I do Hagee's remarks to be illuminating about McCain.

Hagee is a noxious religious fundamentalist, as is Wright. Religious fundamentalism of any kind is dangerous and destructive. However, Hagee is peripheral to McCain while Wright is central to Obama. For me, that's a crucial distinction.

Edited to add:

So that there's no misunderstanding - Yes, McCain should distance himself from religious fundamentalism with no less vigor than Obama. However, at this juncture, I have to say Obama is closer to a religious fundamentalist (Wright) and therefore has more work to do in that regard.

< Message edited by celticlord2112 -- 3/18/2008 12:55:03 PM >

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RE: A man's voice should be his own. - 3/18/2008 12:48:42 PM

domiguy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

quote:

Now given the assumption that it becomes an Obama/McCain race, do you equally condemn McCain's refusal to distance himself from his religious advisors, as described by others in this thread? If not, then i'm afraid i can't take what appears to be a principled stand on your part seriously.
If you do, then how can we compare the two probable candidates responses to their religious embarassments? One tries to address it (for a given value of address), the other just ducks.

philo,
Qualify this that I've vote for Reverend Wright before voting for Senator McCain.

That said...

The comparison is not on equal terms. Getting an endorsement from national figureheads of Churches is very different than a 20 year membership and a $20k/year contribution to a local parish. It's difficult for me to put those two situations on equal grounds. It would seem that anyone trying to would rather avoid Senator Obama relationship with the, self described "Afro-Centric Church" in general and the personal relationship with Reverend Wright in particular.

However, if it is discovered that Senator McCain participated at the same level in a White Centric church who preaches a philosophy of ongoing White Race victimization by Blacks - I'll stand corrected.

Merc you really don't get it. How are white's going to be victimized by blacks...Spit in our Bar-b-que? I don't believe there has been much government action or inaction that would harm ol' whitey. There is a tradition in government that the ones in control make the rules...Which will inevitably make those who are not in control suffer.

So we have different drug laws based upon who is consuming. Different reaction times based upon who is in danger. On and on.

It is the lame ass argument about why are "those people" allowed to have their own beauty pageants and award shows...When we are not! I would say that there are many "white churches" that do not begin to take a Christian stance when it comes to race.

Rev. Wright didn't say he hates whites...he simply pointed out that our gov't actions have not always had the best interests of all Americans at heart.

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RE: A man's voice should be his own. - 3/18/2008 12:55:16 PM

DomKen

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?

Hagee saying god destroyed New Orleans as punishment is not condemnatory? How many people did god supposedly kill to appease his anger over a gay rights parade? Wright just said god should damn america, Hagee opines that god already has damned part of america. I find neither comment to be in good taste but I certainly find Hagee's to be many orders of magnitude worse.

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RE: A man's voice should be his own. - 3/18/2008 12:56:38 PM

celticlord2112

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

?

Hagee saying god destroyed New Orleans as punishment is not condemnatory? How many people did god supposedly kill to appease his anger over a gay rights parade? Wright just said god should damn america, Hagee opines that god already has damned part of america. I find neither comment to be in good taste but I certainly find Hagee's to be many orders of magnitude worse.

I don't.

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RE: A man's voice should be his own. - 3/18/2008 12:57:19 PM

DomKen

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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

?

Hagee saying god destroyed New Orleans as punishment is not condemnatory? How many people did god supposedly kill to appease his anger over a gay rights parade? Wright just said god should damn america, Hagee opines that god already has damned part of america. I find neither comment to be in good taste but I certainly find Hagee's to be many orders of magnitude worse.

I don't.

Why not?

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RE: A man's voice should be his own. - 3/18/2008 12:57:44 PM

celticlord2112

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quote:

Rev. Wright didn't say he hates whites...he simply pointed out that our gov't actions have not always had the best interests of all Americans at heart.

Yeah, I could just feel the love Wright has for white folk.

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RE: A man's voice should be his own. - 3/18/2008 12:58:28 PM

kittinSol

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Meanwhile, the campaign to drag Obama Barrack's name in the mud is galloping happily in the public opinion.

We're all a bunch of sheep.

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RE: A man's voice should be his own. - 3/18/2008 12:59:56 PM

meatcleaver

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quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

quote:

Now given the assumption that it becomes an Obama/McCain race, do you equally condemn McCain's refusal to distance himself from his religious advisors, as described by others in this thread? If not, then i'm afraid i can't take what appears to be a principled stand on your part seriously.
If you do, then how can we compare the two probable candidates responses to their religious embarassments? One tries to address it (for a given value of address), the other just ducks.

philo,
Qualify this that I've vote for Reverend Wright before voting for Senator McCain.

That said...

The comparison is not on equal terms. Getting an endorsement from national figureheads of Churches is very different than a 20 year membership and a $20k/year contribution to a local parish. It's difficult for me to put those two situations on equal grounds. It would seem that anyone trying to would rather avoid Senator Obama relationship with the, self described "Afro-Centric Church" in general and the personal relationship with Reverend Wright in particular.

However, if it is discovered that Senator McCain participated at the same level in a White Centric church who preaches a philosophy of ongoing White Race victimization by Blacks - I'll stand corrected.

Merc you really don't get it. How are white's going to be victimized by blacks...Spit in our Bar-b-que?

Buy the house next door and lower the value of their houses?

I'm joking but only half so.

The very fact that race has arisen in this campaign illustrates that discrimination is alive and well.

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RE: A man's voice should be his own. - 3/18/2008 1:08:41 PM

MzMia

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Meanwhile, the campaign to drag Obama Barrack's name in the mud is galloping happily in the public opinion.

We're all a bunch of sheep.

Now kitten, you KNEW this was not going to go away, didn't you?
I thought the speech was right on point, and I don't see how he could have
given a better speech on this issue.

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RE: A man's voice should be his own. - 3/18/2008 1:09:32 PM

celticlord2112

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

?

Hagee saying god destroyed New Orleans as punishment is not condemnatory? How many people did god supposedly kill to appease his anger over a gay rights parade? Wright just said god should damn america, Hagee opines that god already has damned part of america. I find neither comment to be in good taste but I certainly find Hagee's to be many orders of magnitude worse.

I don't.

Why not?

Mainly because it isn't "condemnatory". Not even a little bit. Judgemental, certainly, but not condemnatory.

"God damn America": Wright is saying that God should send America in its entirety straight to Hell. That's what damnation is, a condemnation to hell, a curse placed upon the entirety of the American people. If Wright is one tenth the respected theologian Obama proclaims him to be, this he knows full well.

Saying that a natural disaster is a punishment for sin is very Old Testament, judgemental in the extreme, and quite offensive to those of differing beliefs--but punishment is not curse, judgement is not condemnation. Spiritually, theologically, and linguistically, Hagee's statement is considerably milder in its ramifications. Do I agree with it? No. Do I find it half as troubling as "God damn America"? No.

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RE: A man's voice should be his own. - 3/18/2008 1:11:29 PM

kittinSol

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I agree, Mia, but I despair... that such blatant media manipulations are having any impact at all. I guess I'm not cynical enough.

Going to have to work at that.

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RE: A man's voice should be his own. - 3/18/2008 1:13:19 PM

MzMia

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

I agree, Mia, but I despair... that such blatant media manipulations are having any impact at all. I guess I'm not cynical enough.

Going to have to work at that.

The right wingers "rush", "hannity" etc. have been talking about this non-stop since Friday.
I knew this was not going away, they have done everything except form a mob.

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RE: A man's voice should be his own. - 3/18/2008 1:15:09 PM

Estring

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ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Meanwhile, the campaign to drag Obama Barrack's name in the mud is galloping happily in the public opinion.

We're all a bunch of sheep.

Seems to me the sheep are the one's who blindly follow Obama without really knowing about him. And then still blindly support him as closer scrutiny reveals some disturbing truths.

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RE: A man's voice should be his own. - 3/18/2008 1:16:52 PM

domiguy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

?

Hagee saying god destroyed New Orleans as punishment is not condemnatory? How many people did god supposedly kill to appease his anger over a gay rights parade? Wright just said god should damn america, Hagee opines that god already has damned part of america. I find neither comment to be in good taste but I certainly find Hagee's to be many orders of magnitude worse.

I don't.

Why not?

Mainly because it isn't "condemnatory". Not even a little bit. Judgemental, certainly, but not condemnatory.

"God damn America": Wright is saying that God should send America in its entirety straight to Hell. That's what damnation is, a condemnation to hell, a curse placed upon the entirety of the American people. If Wright is one tenth the respected theologian Obama proclaims him to be, this he knows full well.

Saying that a natural disaster is a punishment for sin is very Old Testament, judgemental in the extreme, and quite offensive to those of differing beliefs--but punishment is not curse, judgement is not condemnation. Spiritually, theologically, and linguistically, Hagee's statement is considerably milder in its ramifications. Do I agree with it? No. Do I find it half as troubling as "God damn America"? No.

You hold him( Rev Wright) to a higher standard because he is entangled with a politician that you do not favor. People say shit all the time that they don't actually mean.

You're a bright guy...I'm suprised the light bulb didn't go off. I'm not actually talking about a "real" light bulb...It is a saying about one becoming illuminated to a topic. You see the word "light bulb" in the context to the way that I used it is figurative and not literal. I have heard people say that they were "so embarassed they almost died"...I never believed them...You probably would.

< Message edited by domiguy -- 3/18/2008 1:17:13 PM >

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RE: A man's voice should be his own. - 3/18/2008 1:20:56 PM

Mercnbeth

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Merc you really don't get it.

Maybe it is because I'm getting dizzy from so much 'spin'.

I came to the Obama party for the "change" it would represent; today I learned his position of "irrevocably" concerning the differing racial groups.

Let's go back to Ms. Ferrero's statement; would Senator Obama be a viable candidate, especially considering this situation, where he not identified as Black? Take a look at all the other candidates who have fallen to the wayside for affiliations much less established than Senator Obama's and Reverend Wright.

As I've previously stated I think that Senator Obama's and the Democratic Party in general seeks out 'victims'. It's required to assign "victimization". So if the same words of prejudice are used it depends on the source to qualify them as "racist"?

The idea of a Black Ms. America, or Black Caucus doesn't create 'victims'. However there are victims of Black biased racial prejudice against whites. Whites, especially white men, are victimized daily, legally in the US. The process was legislated into power. Every time there is a hire of a black, Hispanic, or woman to any civil service job, from the mail service to police department who is given the job despite having a lower test score than a white male; it represents bias, prejudice, and creates a victim. That truth speaks to direct and observable racial profiling. It harms Blacks much more than Whites because it makes it politically correct to see Blacks as unable to compete equally with Whites and in need of these racist programs. There are now two generations of American's who were brought up to see this as truth. Every one of these programs should all be eliminated, especially today, when it would be so easy for a computer can keep the race, gender, age, and any other birth assigned trait blind to the screening process.

But that's the goal isn't it? The Blacks are victims is a necessary plank in Senator Obama's platform. Now Senator Obama can take on the person of a 'victim' and generate victim sympathy. Senator Obama, is a victim of his decisions. His lack of experience baggage already was getting heavy. Now he has this situation to draw upon.

quote:

I would say that there are many "white churches" that do not begin to take a Christian stance when it comes to race.

Sure you can; but you can't identify one who has viable presidential candidate as a member who donated $20k or gave an half hour national televised speech defending his relationship with a the racist pastor. Senator Obama has the exclusive on that.

Which reminds me of some other thoughts I had this morning concerning the speech. It will be interested to see how the Senator is treated by the media after today. I'd bet keeping all the major news services waiting 30 minutes beyond the scheduled start time pissed off a lot of network people. Look for the questions and especially follow up questions to get tougher. Also, why the 'laugh track' resembling 'applause' sign audience? Why not the press core? Or if he feared the questions, nobody? Does he need an audience to be 'on' as 'Obama'?

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