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BDSM and History - 4/9/2008 10:41:17 AM

Away4Awhile

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I have been having an ongoing discussion often bordering on "Oh give me a break" about D/s and or BDSM as we practice it today and its origin from personal perspectives.

Having owned this slave for going on 9 years I am familiar with his professed beginings in fantasy from the beginning which may be why I am struggling with his new concept of it begining in "the days of Egypyt....I have no idea what that means even after months and months of rearranging the words to explain it all to me.

So ~~smile~~ anyone up to explaining how the fantasy of becoming a slave might have begun thousands of years ago that would have "initiated" the desire to become a real life slave to the extent it is possible?

Post #: 1

RE: BDSM and History - 4/9/2008 10:47:25 AM

Wheldrake

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I'm a bit perplexed by what you've written... but it sounds like there might be two possibilities.

1. His fantasies about slavery are inspired by the historical example of ancient Egypt, when slavery was a recognised part of society. (I prefer to daydream about the Roman Empire, myself.)

2. He's using "in the days of Egypt" as an odd metaphor for an early period in his own life, when his fantasies began to take shape.

Or am I missing the point entirely?

(in reply to Away4Awhile)

Post #: 2

RE: BDSM and History - 4/9/2008 10:56:08 AM

colouredin

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Yeah Im a bit confused about your question? Are you talking about past life regression or somthing?

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(in reply to Away4Awhile)

Post #: 3

RE: BDSM and History - 4/9/2008 10:56:38 AM

Away4Awhile

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I wish I knew ~~grin~~ Egypt was just one example...Inca..Japanese and on and on and on but "from the beginning of time" seems to be the underlying gyst of it all.

Actually he is speaking for "all" slaves which might be where I am having some of my problem finding the connection...and finding the connection common enough to be able to see past his insistance on its validity. Now you have given me an example of your connection with history and slavery...would you be able or willing to explain the connection from your fantasy point of view.

I would actually like to find him more right than wrong.

(in reply to Wheldrake)

Post #: 4

RE: BDSM and History - 4/9/2008 10:56:45 AM

SteelofUtah

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From: St George Utah
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As for Historical accuracy he is wrong.

Ancient Egypt had Slavery but it was far from Consentual and In most cases the concept of slavery was that you were literally OWNED there was very little surrender dynamic it was simply they what that it was.

His Fantast is just that a Fantasy there is no reality to this belief.

It SEEMS he wants you to be his Queen Nephertiti. This Fantasy will be short lived as most of the slaves who were allowed around the queen were Unicks (Spelled wrong I am sure) Basically they were castrated men. You can offer to cut his balls off if he wants but that is a personl Hard limit of mine, and should be for all men, just an opinion here.

Anyway I wish you luck in figuriung this out because a fantasy is a powerful thing ESPECIALLY when you believe it.

Perhaps you need to get to the root of his fantasy..... WHY does it matter that he believes this?

Steel

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(in reply to Wheldrake)

Post #: 5

RE: BDSM and History - 4/9/2008 10:56:54 AM

Archer

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Point 1

BDSM through history has not always been slavery related, in many cases it was the simple idea that pain and sex can be enjoyed when mixed. The SM part of BDSM. Historic reference in art show sexual activities that used floggers of sorts as well as other impliments of pain.

Bondage as a release from responsibility has been part of stories for people throughout written history it seems, fantasies of being held captive and used for sex, have been written about and the stories exist as written/ oral tradition proof.

I think the problem is you are narowly defining what BDSM is down to those parts you use.

In the days of Egypt there were ritual homosexual acts as well as ritualized sexual practices that included pain. the records exist in hyrogliphics, as well as art. Carved stone and wooded phalluses exist from the time period and not all of them are huge and some of them are of the right size to have been used as dildoes.

Bondage as a sexual practice seems to have been enjoyed (mostly from one side only) for most of recorded history. (Rape)
Discipline the relationship between discipline and sex has a long history as well including Egypt
Sadism (see ciations above as well as those cited on the BDSM Timeline at the Leather Archives Museum)
Masochism (same citations)

As far as fantasies about being a slave, If men created the myth of the Amazons (greek myths) then the idea of a man being held captive for breeding purposes being a fantasy is pretty well established.

(in reply to Away4Awhile)

Post #: 6

RE: BDSM and History - 4/9/2008 10:59:32 AM

Away4Awhile

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My slave is trying to show me the connection of true slavery from a historical point of view which has led to chosen slavery today. I am of the mind he may be trying to take it back too far but am open to being incorrect. Not past regression nor is it even particularly about him at all unless he is including himself in "all" slaves just for this particular point.

(in reply to Away4Awhile)

Post #: 7

RE: BDSM and History - 4/9/2008 11:02:07 AM

Away4Awhile

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Actually it isn't his fantasy which has made me question it...really he wants to use the concept as an introduction for a film project. He knows that in History...slavery was not by choice but believes in the BDSM and D/s context it is by choice in this day and age and wants to link the two together. I am still trying to see the link.

(in reply to Archer)

Post #: 8

RE: BDSM and History - 4/9/2008 11:07:56 AM

Away4Awhile

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~~smile~~ yes I do understand and agree with all you have written. Fantasy and BDSM and D/s can be traced back to many times and many acts rules rituals etc.

Just still trying to figure out if that type of a blanket generalization has merit or not and to get there I wish to explore how many others can take their fantasies back thousands of years and call it the base from which there orientation today came from.

For me it began as a child and through my paternal grand mother who ruled those under her with an iron fist. I was 4 when I realized that her way ( even then it was obvious it was not the "normal" way) was how I wanted my world to be. Perhaps as you suggest I am seeing it from too narrow a perspective ~~smile~~

(in reply to Away4Awhile)

Post #: 9

RE: BDSM and History - 4/9/2008 11:11:12 AM

SimplyMichael

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At its core BDSM is about relationships and sex, people have been doing those two things for a very long time and there really isn't much that is new in those realms.

The massive difference between everything that came before, even 1950's vanilla sex, is the modern concern and understanding of informed and freely given consent. Feminism is rooted in that concept, a woman who can't own property, sign a contract, or vote, isn't truly free to consent, just as a child isn't free to consent.

(in reply to Away4Awhile)

Post #: 10

RE: BDSM and History - 4/9/2008 11:16:30 AM

Away4Awhile

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Don't you just love its core...relationships and sex or sexuality. I agree actually in that trying to trace it back to some monumentous beginning might be over kill. Or am I misreading you?

(in reply to SimplyMichael)

Post #: 11

RE: BDSM and History - 4/9/2008 11:23:40 AM

Wheldrake

Posts: 477
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Away4Awhile

Actually it isn't his fantasy which has made me question it...really he wants to use the concept as an introduction for a film project. He knows that in History...slavery was not by choice but believes in the BDSM and D/s context it is by choice in this day and age and wants to link the two together. I am still trying to see the link.

This seems much more straightforward. Modern people who become consensual slaves in a BDSM sense are choosing to put themselves in a situation that parallels historical, non-consensual slavery in some respects. Slaves in history had to obey their masters and mistresses, work hard for them, and accept the possibility of being punished by them. Sometimes, at least, they had to endure being used sexually by their owner, or tortured just for the owner's pleasure. All those things happen, by consent, in BDSM relationships.

Many details are different, and the distinction between consensual and non-consensual is important, but it's not illogical to make a movie that draws attention to the similarities. And from the fantasy point of view, historical slavery was typically stricter and harsher than modern BDSM slavery, at least in the sense that slaves were legally recognised as the literal property of their masters and mistresses and typically had no easy way of changing their lowly, vulnerable status. They were very much at the mercy of their owners because - unlike modern, consensual slaves - they had no recourse to the wider society if they decided they wanted to emancipate themselves. That level of helplessness can be fun to contemplate, even if it might not be so much fun in reality.

(in reply to Away4Awhile)

Post #: 12

RE: BDSM and History - 4/9/2008 12:01:35 PM

thetammyjo

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Away4Awhile

My slave is trying to show me the connection of true slavery from a historical point of view which has led to chosen slavery today. I am of the mind he may be trying to take it back too far but am open to being incorrect. Not past regression nor is it even particularly about him at all unless he is including himself in "all" slaves just for this particular point.

I think your slave, like some others I've met, has a fantastic and romantic view of slavery in the past that has turned that into a hot idea for him to embrace today.

Others are very uncomfortable with the term "slave" for the very same historical view because they don't romanticize it.

Neither feeling is incorrect though as a historian who studies slavery in the past I'd say that other than the the romantic notices and basic concepts, DS slavery is quite different from the historical or institutional thing. I also strongly suspect that most people with this fantasy view of past slavery would find themselves quite distressed were they ever in such a situation themselves.

The great thing about having a fantasy is that you are ultimately in control of it even if it involves you not being in control during the fantasy. Similar thing about consensual relationships -- it's wonderful to feel like you can't leave your master/mistress but quite another emotional if it were a legal dynamic that you could only survive.

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TammyJo

Check out my website at http://www.thetammyjo.com Or www.tammyjoeckhart.com

And my LJ where I post fiction in progress if you "friend" me at http://thetammyjo.livejournal.com/

(in reply to Away4Awhile)

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RE: BDSM and History - 4/9/2008 12:02:42 PM

Archer

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Well if you want to consider the idea of consensual slavery in historic context there is evidence dating back to Egyptian times of consensual slavery.

Exodus chapt. 21 V. 5 and 6 say "But if a slave declares, "I love my master, my wife and my children, I do not wish to go free". His master shall take him unto G-d, he shall take him to the door or to the doorpost , and his master shall pierce his ear with an awl: and he shall serve him forever."

Now this has to be taken with some context for realities sake. Jews were permitted to own slaves, if those slaves were also jewish, then the period of slavery was limited to 7 years, after which time they had to be offered their freedom.

and since this is taken from the book of Exodus the time period would be th time of Ramses II, so thus anchient Egypt as a time period would be correct.

(in reply to Wheldrake)

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RE: BDSM and History - 4/9/2008 12:08:16 PM

thetammyjo

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer

Well if you want to consider the idea of consensual slavery in historic context there is evidence dating back to Egyptian times of consensual slavery.

Exodus chapt. 21 V. 5 and 6 say "But if a slave declares, "I love my master, my wife and my children, I do not wish to go free". His master shall take him unto G-d, he shall take him to the door or to the doorpost , and his master shall pierce his ear with an awl: and he shall serve him forever."

Now this has to be taken with some context for realities sake. Jews were permitted to own slaves, if those slaves were also jewish, then the period of slavery was limited to 7 years, after which time they had to be offered their freedom.

and since this is taken from the book of Exodus the time period would be th time of Ramses II, so thus anchient Egypt as a time period would be correct.

Ah, this is the Biblical verse Fox and I used when we got his ears pierced to mark the end of my 7th year of owning him....

_____________________________

Love, Peace, Hugs, Kisses, Whips & Chains,

TammyJo

Check out my website at http://www.thetammyjo.com Or www.tammyjoeckhart.com

And my LJ where I post fiction in progress if you "friend" me at http://thetammyjo.livejournal.com/

(in reply to Archer)

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RE: BDSM and History - 4/9/2008 4:05:09 PM

LuckyAlbatross

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Tammy Jo has said it all best (as I would have predicted). But I can say she seems to be retro-rationalizing. Who I am and the relationship dynamic I am fulfilled by has nothing to do with what anyone decided or set up millennia ago, certainly not with actual no-choice taken-by-force or killed to work constantly with no security slavery.

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(in reply to thetammyjo)

Post #: 16

RE: BDSM and History - 4/9/2008 5:40:52 PM

DelilahDeb

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TammyJo,

Thanks for this sentence:

quote:

Others are very uncomfortable with the term "slave" for the very same historical view because they don't romanticize it.

I enjoy many of your posts, but this specific statement nails my feelings exactly. May I quote you?

Delilah Deb

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(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

Post #: 17

RE: BDSM and History - 4/9/2008 7:50:34 PM

TwistedLeather

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Joined: 3/9/2008
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History Channel did an episode on the history of sex. Can't remember exactly what it was called, but anyway, it was quite informative... but back in the days, slavery and servitude were kinda defined differently, as i understood it, based on society rankings and family structures and such. i found the documentary interesting and informative... might be worth a looking into if you're interested in what Egypt has to do with D/s. Or other cultures and/or countries for that matter!

my point is, it can be traced back deep into history... by different terms and definitions and varying society structures.

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(in reply to DelilahDeb)

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RE: BDSM and History - 4/9/2008 8:08:41 PM

Shawn1066

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You can find BDSM as far back as you look, in one form or another. The mythological story of Herakles and Omphale is classic, for example. It's a tale involving eroticism, forced feminization, discipline, role reversal, and even a bit of love. Though, as I recall, the erotic elements were only added during Hellenistic and Roman times, rather than classical Greek times. Still...that's a long, long time ago.

DV's Fox

(in reply to TwistedLeather)

Post #: 19

RE: BDSM and History - 4/9/2008 9:14:06 PM

chellekitty

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FR....

for actual incidents of bdsm in the past, i have found no better source that the timeline on the leather archives website but it doesn't mention much bdsm until the 1400's or 1500's...my own supposition would be that it was because that beating your wife or slaves or anyone else beneath you did not get a second glance before then...and it often didn't after then...but at that time and from then on there were more people noting when people would do "unusual things"...

other than that, in my opinion, the best you will find will be literary references, and not to many things have been translated out of ancient languages save the bible, other various religious texts and some philosophers' writings...so...if you happen upon any ancient greek or egyptian porn and you have someone to translate it...let me know, i would be highly interested in reading it...

good luck
chelle

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(in reply to Shawn1066)

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