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RE: INSIGNIFICANT Progress... - 4/13/2008 6:40:41 AM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline 		Notwithstanding the petty bickering going on in this thread, the fact is that the illegal and morally questionnable invasion of Iraq and the subsequent annihiliation of its infrastructures, and the death of over 90,000 civilians  (get that figure around your head, people, and tell me you would be so obtuse about its significance were they AMERICAN citizens), the pathetic fiasco this invasion has proven to be, and the Catch 22 America finds herself into as a result of her belligerent, insane and jingoistic foreign policy... the fact is that this isn't a 'war'.

And to speak a language you will understand, the fact is that it's costing you a fuck load of money for ABSOLUTELY ZERO return. Unless you work for Blackwater, or another dodgy private operation, hmmm?Maybe that's the only source of consolation some of us will find in this disgusting situation: that the vociferous supporters of this abomination will end up as fucked over moneywise as the rest of us  .



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RE: INSIGNIFICANT Progress... - 4/13/2008 6:44:24 AM   
FirmhandKY


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Joined: 9/21/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

Good to see you posting down here again, Firm.

10 out of 10 for persistence; I'll give you that.

And, you'll nail your colours to the mast at any given opportunity - credit for that.


Hi NG.

Yes, I'm kinda just "toying with the kiddies" above, because I'm pretty sure none of them have the ability to do anything other than rant and rave, and writhe in frustration and annoyance that someone dares challenge anything they have to say.

I don't classify you in their category, quite.  You can give me a damn fine run for my money as long as you don't start taking it personal. 

Firm


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RE: INSIGNIFICANT Progress... - 4/13/2008 6:57:38 AM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline 		I like hearing radical people argue in favour of unilateral conflict: it helps me understand the psychology of war-mongering.

You have to know your enemy  .  

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RE: INSIGNIFICANT Progress... - 4/13/2008 7:22:23 AM   
FirmhandKY


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Joined: 9/21/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

I like hearing radical people argue in favour of unilateral conflict: it helps me understand the psychology of war-mongering.

You have to know your enemy  .  


I like hearing radical people

Do you consider me a "radical" person?  If so, why?

argue in favour of unilateral conflict:

What is a "unilateral conflict"?

it helps me understand the psychology of war-mongering.

"psychology of war-mongering"?  Is that a DSM-IV recognized illness ... or simply a politically motivated insult to anyone who disagrees with you?

You have to know your enemy.

Am I an "enemy"?

Firm


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RE: INSIGNIFICANT Progress... - 4/13/2008 7:34:16 AM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

as long as you don't start taking it personal. 

Firm



Nothing personal taken here, Firm. You're a product of another culture - fair enough in my book.

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RE: INSIGNIFICANT Progress... - 4/13/2008 8:03:00 AM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

Do you consider me a "radical" person?  If so, why?



Yes, I think you're pretty radical in your views. For example, you argue in favour of state intervention to protect what you consider to be 'traditional values' - you call yourself a conservative. You are in favour of the invasion of Iraq (correct me if I'm wrong), you think 'the surge' is working, you think that Iraqui civilian deaths are just collateral damage (don't you?), which is very radical in my book. In the end though, it's very much a matter of personal perception.

quote:



What is a "unilateral conflict"?



Isn't it self-descriptive? It's an unequal fight where one side cannot fight the other for lack of the adequate strength.  

quote:



"psychology of war-mongering"?  Is that a DSM-IV recognized illness ... or simply a politically motivated insult to anyone who disagrees with you?



I do believe that to be in favour of war at all cost, and especially of one as useless as the one that's taking place in Iraq, one has to have a particular mindset and a psychological setup that are so foreign to me, I consider them to have a different psychology from mine. One I do seek to understand - sorry if it sounded mildly 'off'.

quote:



Do you not consider me to be [your enemy]? (...) Am I an "enemy"?



You're not an enemy; the expression 'to know your enemy' doesn't have to be taken at face value. It can be used in quite a benign way - for example, during a game of chess. Some of your opinions put you on the other side of the political spectrum than the one I stand on (though mine gets wobbly, but I'm a flip-flopper), and in that sense, you are definitely an opponent. Or 'enemy', to put it less mildly. It's not personal, you know I have a soft spot for you, Firm, even though I think you're totally bonkers.

Just to remind you... here is what you wrote just a few posts ago:

quote:



I'm kinda just "toying with the kiddies" above, because I'm pretty sure none of them have the ability to do anything other than rant and rave, and writhe in frustration and annoyance that someone dares challenge anything they have to say.



You have to agree this is rather belligerent language, when it's thrown in the direction of those that don't agree with you. Please tell me you weren't aiming it at moi  ?

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RE: INSIGNIFICANT Progress... - 4/13/2008 8:31:05 AM   
Owner59


Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

I like hearing radical people argue in favour of unilateral conflict: it helps me understand the psychology of war-mongering.

You have to know your enemy  .  


I like hearing radical people

Do you consider me a "radical" person?  If so, why?

argue in favour of unilateral conflict:

What is a "unilateral conflict"?

it helps me understand the psychology of war-mongering.

"psychology of war-mongering"?  Is that a DSM-IV recognized illness ... or simply a politically motivated insult to anyone who disagrees with you?

You have to know your enemy.

Am I an "enemy"?

Firm



I`ll take this one kittin.

Do you consider me a "radical" person?  If so, why?

The other day I heard Bush say "we have to help the Iraqis rebuild their society."

Well,the Iraqis had one and Bush destroyed it(unilterally).Bush`s comments that we must rebuild Iraq was an admission that he destroyed it,on purpose.

I think it`s fair to say that destroying a whole nation is pretty fuck`n damm radical.It`s also fair to say that you support Bush`s radical policies.Colonel Cakewalk and field commander Fuckup should have known that there was the potential of killing hundreds of thousands of innocents and driving hundreds of thousands more into becoming refugees.

The biggest refugee crisis sinse WWII.Thanks neo-cons.(and you wonder why people get upset when someone says things are going well in Iraq,sheeesh!)

What is a "unilateral conflict"?

If you don`t know already,I`ll give you two examples,you pick the unilateral war and a multilateral war.

The 1st Gulf war under Bush Sr. had the cooperation of every Arab ally of ours as well as everyone of our other allies, were on board.

The Saudis,the Kuwaitis,the Egyptians and Syrians were all on-board.Our allies in Europe were all on board.

Added:the key point;having Arab support and real cooperation,

~~~~~~~~~~~

The 2nd Gulf war,under Bush Jr.

One real ally,England and they`ve bailed.All the others were payed mercenaries or window trimming,and they`ve all bailed too.

Basically,Bush went to war alone while flipping the bird to our friends and to the Arab nations around Iraq.

He said my way or the hi-way and then drove us into the ditch next to that hi-way.Now we`re in Iraq alone and our army is strung out,soon to be abandoned there,by Bush.

Ok,which one`s which?

"psychology of war-mongering"?  Is that a DSM-IV recognized illness ... or simply a politically motivated insult to anyone who disagrees with you?

If you don`t know what war mongering is,you haven`t read a history book.

JSYK,neo-cons are war mongerers.War for war`s sake and damm everyone else."We know what`s best,and we`ll water board you til you agree that`s true." (that`s a dramatization of course,but you get my point)


It`s not meant as an insult but more of an identifying of the bad faith players.


And know,you`re not the enemy.

You`re one of the well meaning people who think the war`s going fine,freedom`s on the march,Bush is a brave and honorable man,etc.That`s pretty radical stuff. 

However,osama bin laden couldn`t have a better partner.The neo-cons have done everything he had hoped for,and beyond.

Invade a Muslim country, to be bled dry(like he did with the Soviets),create a recruitment mechanism and terrorist factory for al-queda`s benefit,drive wedges between the US and it`s allies,make us look as bad as the terrorist(mission accomplished on that one),drive up the cost of energy and destabilize the region,kill multitudes of innocent civilians and start a religious civil war.

Could you guys not be so "helpful"?

< Message edited by Owner59 -- 4/13/2008 9:11:10 AM >

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RE: INSIGNIFICANT Progress... - 4/13/2008 8:59:45 AM   
FirmhandKY


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Joined: 9/21/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

Do you consider me a "radical" person?  If so, why?


Yes, I think you're pretty radical in your views. For example, you argue in favour of state intervention to protect what you consider to be 'traditional values' - you call yourself a conservative. You are in favour of the invasion of Iraq (correct me if I'm wrong), you think 'the surge' is working, you think that Iraqui civilian deaths are just collateral damage (don't you?), which is very radical in my book. In the end though, it's very much a matter of personal perception.


1.  In favor of state intervention to protect "traditional values"?  Uh, not sure where you ever got that idea.  I do think that being totally "values neutral" in government is difficult and likely to lead you to places you don't wish to go ... but I think I'm far from advocating "state intervention" in anything, if it can be avoided.

2.  "you call yourself a conservative." ... hmmm, I may have on occasion, although likely in quotes ("conservative").  I've also said, and explained in length that I'm actually a classical liberal, with a small twist.

3. "in favor of the invasion of Iraq"?  hmmm again.  Not really.  I knew it would be a difficult and long war.  And I wasn't sure if there weren't better options.  But the "big picture" reason (not the worn-out WMD argument) for getting deeply involved in the ME seemed to be valid to me. I served in Iraq during the Gulf War (as well as in most of the neighboring nations), and I was highly confident that we would have to return to the area in force before too many years.

4. "Iraqi civilian deaths just collateral damage".  No, not at all as you mean it.  I think any death is horrific and sad.  The question that you are trying to avoid, and the box you are trying to put me (and others) is into a moral quandary about the price of a world and civilization where we can live without fear. There is a basic philosophical difference between us in defining what is worth fighting and dying for. 

Taken to an extreme, thinking of people as disposable for just "any ole reason" is cruel and bankrupt.  On the other hand, not realizing that change and beliefs sometimes might be worth sacrifice and death is too idealistic and leads to the very extinction of the ideals that you seem to be advocating.


quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

quote:


What is a "unilateral conflict"?


Isn't it self-descriptive? It's an unequal fight where one side cannot fight the other for lack of the adequate strength. 

Still unclear.  Are you talking about asymmetrical warfare?  Do you mean that the forces in Iraq which have been killing Americans are somehow morally in the right and correct simply because they have fewer resources to increase the number of American and Iraqi civilian deaths?

I think you are on shaky moral grounds here.  Be careful.

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol
quote:


"psychology of war-mongering"?  Is that a DSM-IV recognized illness ... or simply a politically motivated insult to anyone who disagrees with you?


I do believe that to be in favour of war at all cost, and especially of one as useless as the one that's taking place in Iraq, one has to have a particular mindset and a psychological setup that are so foreign to me, I consider them to have a different psychology from mine. One I do seek to understand - sorry if it sounded mildly 'off'.

Why would you think I am "in favour of war at all cost"?  As I have said to others in this thread, and in other threads, many on your side of the divide seem to have this cartoonish picture of what I believe, and why, and then try to force anything said that disagrees with your view of the world into neat categories of "evil" and "bad", without any serious consideration of perhaps others may hold differing opinions due to their own values and beliefs that aren't "evil" and "bad".

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol
quote:


Do you not consider me to be [your enemy]? (...) Am I an "enemy"?


You're not an enemy; the expression 'to know your enemy' doesn't have to be taken at face value. It can be used in quite a benign way - for example, during a game of chess. Some of your opinions put you on the other side of the political spectrum than the one I stand on (though mine gets wobbly, but I'm a flip-flopper), and in that sense, you are definitely an opponent. Or 'enemy', to put it less mildly. It's not personal, you know I have a soft spot for you, Firm, even though I think you're totally bonkers.

Just to remind you... here is what you wrote just a few posts ago:

quote:



I'm kinda just "toying with the kiddies" above, because I'm pretty sure none of them have the ability to do anything other than rant and rave, and writhe in frustration and annoyance that someone dares challenge anything they have to say.



You have to agree this is rather belligerent language, when it's thrown in the direction of those that don't agree with you. Please tell me you weren't aiming it at moi  ?


Not belligerent language at all.  It's really just a statement of one of my beliefs (albeit, in a slightly snide and condescending way, I'll admit).  I said it the way I did in the faint (usually forlorn) hope that it might cause one or two people to stop for a second and consider something outside of their normal self-righteous, holier-than-thou diarrheal monologues.

One of my common refrains is that that there is a relationship and equivalence between people such as the "far right bible thumpers" who use religion as the ground spring of all their thought processes, and others (generally, but not exclusively "lefties") use another - but equally brittle - belief system to categorize and label everyone who disagrees with them.

That's why you'll see me use terms such as "heresy" when I talk about how disagreement is treated by such people.

Was I aiming at you?  No, not particularly.  Generally, I consider you more open to actual conversation and dialog.  In other words, I've not made my mind up about whether or not you have a totally closed mind, like Fargle and some of that crew.

Firm


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RE: INSIGNIFICANT Progress... - 4/13/2008 10:21:11 AM   
farglebargle


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quote:


Was I aiming at you? No, not particularly. Generally, I consider you more open to actual conversation and dialog. In other words, I've not made my mind up about whether or not you have a totally closed mind, like Fargle and some of that crew.

Firm



I'm funny like that.

I don't support, aid, or abet known felons like the members and supporters of the Bush Gang.

Everything they have done is tainted -- "Proceeds of a Criminal Enterprise" so-to-speak.

Perhaps they shouldn't have chosen to commit felony fraud in the furtherance of their criminal enterprise? They didn't *have to*. They *chose to* violate the Laws of the United States.

I really don't get why *anyone* would do anything to provide any aid and comfort to these enemies of America. But here we are. Surrounded by apologists and propagandists always trying to distract from the proper and lawful prosecution of criminals at large.

How many positive propaganda public-interest stories does it take to absolve one's soul of the 100,000 dead iraqi children?




< Message edited by farglebargle -- 4/13/2008 10:22:03 AM >

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It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

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RE: INSIGNIFICANT Progress... - 4/13/2008 10:56:55 AM   
FirmhandKY


Posts: 8948
Joined: 9/21/2004
Status: offline 		FR:

Damn.

They are dropping like flies around here.

Kitten?  You still alive? 

Firm


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RE: INSIGNIFICANT Progress... - 4/13/2008 11:19:34 AM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline 		Yeah. I'm thinking of a witty retort to your reply to me, but my brain's stuck in first gear.

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RE: INSIGNIFICANT Progress... - 4/13/2008 5:01:45 PM   
FirmhandKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

quote:


Was I aiming at you? No, not particularly. Generally, I consider you more open to actual conversation and dialog. In other words, I've not made my mind up about whether or not you have a totally closed mind, like Fargle and some of that crew.

Firm



I'm funny like that.

I don't support, aid, or abet known felons like the members and supporters of the Bush Gang.

Everything they have done is tainted -- "Proceeds of a Criminal Enterprise" so-to-speak.

Perhaps they shouldn't have chosen to commit felony fraud in the furtherance of their criminal enterprise? They didn't *have to*. They *chose to* violate the Laws of the United States.

I really don't get why *anyone* would do anything to provide any aid and comfort to these enemies of America. But here we are. Surrounded by apologists and propagandists always trying to distract from the proper and lawful prosecution of criminals at large.

How many positive propaganda public-interest stories does it take to absolve one's soul of the 100,000 dead iraqi children?


Hyperbole and bullshit.

Bush and "his gang" are convicted felons?

"Proceeds of a Criminal enterprise"?

"100,000" dead Iraqi children?

You need to swear off the Kool Aid, or at least stop cutting it with the potent drugs that are bending your brain all out of whack, fargle.

Firm


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RE: INSIGNIFICANT Progress... - 4/13/2008 5:14:10 PM   
domiguy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY


Not where my mind was when I posted to this thread, but a pretty interesting link nonetheless:

Moment of Truth in Iraq

Michael Yon changed my mind about the war in Iraq, by making me understand it for the first time.

From the very beginning I was against the war. I thought it would be a disaster, another Vietnam. And until I had the privilege of working on this book with Michael I was always for immediate pull-out: why should one more American die for a doomed effort?

Michael--who is as close to totally non-political as anyone I know--showed me two things. First, because I judged by Vietnam, the war of my youth, I had radically underestimated what American soldiers could do. I knew they could blow away any regular opponent on any battlefield. But wage a counterinsurgency against an enemy with broad support in the population? Win the "hearts and minds," to use the Vietnam era phrase that now can be used only ironically? That was asking too much, I thought.

I was 100 percent wrong. Today's American soldiers excel at counterinsurgency, because they excel at the most important thing: winning over the people by inspiring them with their own courage and compassion, discipline and determination. Reading this book is like watching the movie Apocalypse Now, but in an alternate universe in which the opposite always happens. Every time our soldiers get into an incredibly tense situation with some Iraqis who might be friends or might be enemies or murderers, some situation in which what's needed is amazing calm and courage to keep things from blowing up and ending in a blood bath, our guys pull it off!

Firm


http://www.collarchat.com/m_1123463/mpage_8/key_yon/tm.htm#1175460

quote:

Me (Domiguy)
it's all bullshit....And quite frankly I think you know it....Michael Yon is embedded....It is a position that is allowed...this gov't has proved time and again that they want only one story told....the one that ups the ante to promote "our war on terror." I'm 100% confident the massacre that he reported was based upon sectarian violence....to attribute it to the work of al qaeda the you would have to ask the question why does al qaeda want these people dead.....Oh that's right, al qaeda wants to start a "Khmer rouge" brainwashing program.....They haven't the manpower nor the strength....This is sunni/shia violence nothing more nothing less....It's all bullshit.

Anyone who puts faith in these stories has lost the ability to look at the reporting in a rational light....Who is the source? What questions are they asking? Why are they allowed to be "embedded?" Has this government been honest with the people of this Country when it comes to relaying the facts about this war? These are all good questions....I'm afraid that the answer is take these stories with a grain of salt....For, they are probably not true.

I will add one thought, It is nice to see that somone is documenting the struggles of our troops....I enjoy his photos immensely....I just wish he would keep his mouth closed, because every time it opens I hear someone elses words coming out.



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RE: INSIGNIFICANT Progress... - 4/13/2008 5:58:48 PM   
FirmhandKY


Posts: 8948
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Status: offline 		Domi,

You are a smart, articulate and funny guy.

But you are still drinking the same Kool Aid.

I suspect you googled Yon just in order to attempt to discredit him.  I also suspect that you haven't been following all the ups and downs of his dispatches over the last several years, and the harsh words he has printed about the military, and about how the war was fought at times.

In other words, you have perceptual biases of selectivity and confirmation against anything that doesn't fit your preceived notions, and since - in this case - Yon's on-the-ground, first-person reporting and conclusions differ from yours ... he is obviously a right wing neo-con stoolie or plant.

*shrugs* No shame that you have biases.  We all do to a certain extent.

But, like I've said many times, and like I meant in my earlier comments on this thread, brittle ideological thinkers are inherently incapable of having a thought, or a good word about anybody or anything that doesn't hew to their exact line of political thinking on the subject that they hold.

Can you name a single person (journalist, political figure, average American) that you admire - and whose thoughts or words on the subject of the war disagree with yours - that you hold up to anything other than ridicule?

Firm

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RE: INSIGNIFICANT Progress... - 4/13/2008 6:09:45 PM   
kittinSol


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Slight hijack: what the hell is this "drinking the Kool Aid" expression I keep on reading? Obviously some kind of obscure cultural reference. Get new phrases, peeps.

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RE: INSIGNIFICANT Progress... - 4/13/2008 6:12:40 PM   
domiguy


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Status: offline 		Frim,

I just think that you have to realize that our current government is not going to allow anyone with a contrarian voice to be able to become "embedded."

It only makes sense. This administration has done so much to silence it's critics and to not allow contrasting views to come to light if possible.


I read a great deal of Yon's reports...He seems to follow the script very well. Why were the villagers killed by al qaeda? It really seemed to follow the logic that the killings were the result of sunni/shia violence....However, these types of killings won't forward our agenda...It's best if the majority of the violence can be attributed to al qaeda.

Yon seems to be more than happy to be complicit in his reporting. I'm juss saying....

< Message edited by domiguy -- 4/13/2008 6:13:00 PM >

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RE: INSIGNIFICANT Progress... - 4/13/2008 6:15:20 PM   
FirmhandKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy

Frim,

I just think that you have to realize that our current government is not going to allow anyone with a contrarian voice to be able to become "embedded."

It only makes sense. This administration has done so much to silence it's critics and to not allow contrasting views to come to light if possible.


I read a great deal of Yon's reports...He seems to follow the script very well. Why were the villagers killed by al qaeda? It really seemed to follow the logic that the killings were the result of sunni/shia violence....However, these types of killings won't forward our agenda...It's best if the majority of the violence can be attributed to al qaeda.

Yon seems to be more than happy to be complicit in his reporting. I'm juss saying....


You seem to only have read about the village massacre.

Dig deeper.  He named name and raised hell about things in the military as well.

But you'll continue to discount anything he says, simply because he challenges some of your beliefs.

No names yet, about someone you admire, who disagrees with you about the war?

Firm


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RE: INSIGNIFICANT Progress... - 4/13/2008 6:20:31 PM   
FirmhandKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol



Slight hijack: what the hell is this "drinking the Kool Aid" expression I keep on reading? Obviously some kind of obscure cultural reference. Get new phrases, peeps.


hehe ... yup, one of those cultural references that sometimes gets immigrants confused.

Drink the Kool Aid:

A reference to the 1978 cult mass-suicide in Jonestown, Guyana. Jim Jones, the leader of the group, convinced his followers to move to Jonestown. Late in the year he then ordered his flock to commit suicide by drinking grape-flavored Kool-Aid laced with potassium cyanide. In what is now commonly called "the Jonestown Massacre", 913 of the 1100 Jonestown residents drank the Kool-Aid and died.

One lasting legacy of the Jonestown tragedy is the saying, “Don’t drink the Kool-Aid.” This has come to mean, "Don’t trust any group you find to be a little on the kooky side." or "Whatever they tell you, don't believe it too strongly".

The phrase can also be used in the opposite sense to indicate that one has embraced a particular philosophy or perspective.


Alice: Hey, did you hear that Joe is working on the Nader campaign?
Bob: Yeah, he really drank the Kool-Aid on that one.

Chris: I'm thinking about attending a PETA rally
Donna: Whatever you do, don't drink the Kool-Aid!

Firm


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RE: INSIGNIFICANT Progress... - 4/13/2008 6:22:14 PM   
kittinSol


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

hehe ... yup, one of those cultural references that sometimes gets immigrants confused.



Hehe, thank you for the explanation. I forget that the colonies had ample time to develop their own cultural quirks, in the absence of the mothership  .

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RE: INSIGNIFICANT Progress... - 4/13/2008 6:31:48 PM   
domiguy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

Domi,

Can you name a single person (journalist, political figure, average American) that you admire - and whose thoughts or words on the subject of the war disagree with yours - that you hold up to anything other than ridicule?

Firm


Not on this particualr topic. In order to to allow yourself to "support" this war....You really have to bathe in the kool aid. You have to be willing to sweep aside all of the reasons initially given for the invasion and then implant your own or the ideas of the others that have been offered up as reasons to continue giving your support.

There are so many other parts of the world that could actually use our help if that is now the reason for the war. There are so many other parts of the world that offer us a more serious threat to our national security than Iraq if that is now the reason for war.

In short, anyone who still supports this war has been sold a bill of goods that they will never collect. I cannot support the thought process of those that can justify the idea that fellow Americans should be getting blowed up in Iraq. For what? It's such a waste. Nothing to be gained and everything for one of your fellow citizens to lose.


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(in reply to FirmhandKY)
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