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RE: The sting of poverty - 4/13/2008 6:21:23 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster

Ah, merc, you think you can find anything more recent? That post was from 2003, the data appear to be from 2000.

I wouldn't think there would be much of a difference from then to now, though.

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(in reply to Hippiekinkster)

RE: The sting of poverty - 4/13/2008 6:24:21 PM

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LOL, i was given no saftey net good man! My mothers response was: well bobbilynn, lets see how You manage, and she has not spoken to me since. Sink or swim. i was offered nothing by anyone in my Clan, save my Godfathers youngest daughter, who afforded me a place to stay for a short time. i am forever in her debt.

i am aware i am lucky, and i am most humbled You pointed such a thing out. i am familiar with hand to mouth; that stage would have been when i lived in my van last summer. Being poor is one thing, poor mouthin' is another thing entirely.
My family as a whole (all 70 of them) are a great bunch of folks; nevertheless, they have never been my soft place to fall. It's NOT a sob story, just part of my story good man!
b.~
b.~

(in reply to bipolarber)

RE: The sting of poverty - 4/13/2008 7:07:55 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: bipolarber

Nice that you had the choice... (and probably could always fall back on your family to help you out when things got too tough.)

Try surviving hand to mouth sometime when you don't have a safety net.

Some of us have started there and done extremely well for ourselves, thank you.

I refuse to subsidize people who make stupid life decisions. That's their problem, not mine. The wealthy are no more evil (and no less evil) than the poor, but at least an economy that incentivizes achievement produces a consistently higher standard of living than those who which do not.

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RE: The sting of poverty - 4/13/2008 7:35:40 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Level

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster

Ah, merc, you think you can find anything more recent? That post was from 2003, the data appear to be from 2000.

I wouldn't think there would be much of a difference from then to now, though.

Changes in cap gains rates, Bush's tax cuts for high net worth people, just off the top of my head.

Have to remember also that the wealthy have a lot of money in tax-exempt bonds, etc. That interest doesn't show up in the AGI. Then there are the C-corps, S-corps, LLCs and PCs, which all have certain tax advantages. Then there's the old "deferred income" game. Most people don't have the ability to use any of the above tools and techniques.

I'd really like to see the stats reflect taxPAYERS and not taxFILERS. If half the filers have no income, that really skews the numbers.

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RE: The sting of poverty - 4/13/2008 7:50:25 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Real_Trouble

quote:

ORIGINAL: bipolarber

Nice that you had the choice... (and probably could always fall back on your family to help you out when things got too tough.)

Try surviving hand to mouth sometime when you don't have a safety net.

Some of us have started there and done extremely well for ourselves, thank you.

I refuse to subsidize people who make stupid life decisions. That's their problem, not mine. The wealthy are no more evil (and no less evil) than the poor, but at least an economy that incentivizes achievement produces a consistently higher standard of living than those who which do not.

i concur, hence why i care for a man who is completely wheelchair bound, as well as clean homes to make ends meet. i choose a man instead of schooling, and to alter that point would mark all other points there after.
Although i have never been on assistance)pride can be a killer, literally!!), i do not look down on those who do or have used such services.

As much as i can relate with the mindset of wishing to give up b/c i cannot see the forrest through the trees, i can not understand actually doing so. i do not hold rich folks anymore accountable then i do poor folks.
It is a flawed system that does not benefit either side.
b.~

(in reply to Real_Trouble)

RE: The sting of poverty - 4/13/2008 7:54:53 PM

cjan

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Eat the rich. Up against the wall, fat cat motherforkers.

< Message edited by cjan -- 4/13/2008 7:56:02 PM >

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(in reply to Hippiekinkster)

RE: The sting of poverty - 4/13/2008 8:14:53 PM

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LMAO @ cjan!!!

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RE: The sting of poverty - 4/13/2008 8:29:15 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Level

While not a socialist, I see things like a news story this morning, where someone paid $675,000.00 for a license plate in Delaware, and I see human beings suffering, and it boggles my mind.

Well, they could have donated a lot of money to homeless shelters too.
We just don't know.

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RE: The sting of poverty - 4/13/2008 9:05:31 PM

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Oh, I don't advocate violence against anyone. I'm just saying that we should close all the tax loopholes, and have them pony up all the money they are sucking up and keeping at the top.

Are rich people evil? No. Not all of them, anyway.

But you know, it was kinda funny. After the tail end of Katrina rolled through Arkansas (my adopted home state) I volunteered at a local TV station to help collect contributions for helping people out who's lives were screwed over by damage from the storm. Overwhelmingly, the finacial support came from average folks, or people who were pretty much dirt poor themselves. The local paper even did a column on the fact that so few of the wealthy folks contributed.

I don't think people are evil, as a rule. But I think when you have lots of money, somewhere along the line it begins to take over your life, and it changes you. Suddenly, you're more worried about the interest rates on your CD's, than you are about your neighbors having a roof over your head, or that there are runaway kids selling themselves on the streets.

Rich people aren't evil... they just often have their priorities fucked up.

Oh, and to bobbilynn: sorry if I came off as snarky. I really need to hear more of people's story before I go shooting my mouth off. Personally, I got "tossed" by my family. They didn't get nasty about it, but because I'm both a bi male and kinky, a wall went up between us. They made it abundantly clear that I couldn't expect help from any of them, ever. I don't know what your reasons were (perhaps they are similar, since you are on this site) but I'm sure they are at least as solid as my own.

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RE: The sting of poverty - 4/13/2008 9:26:10 PM

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quote:

In my limited experience my poor friends lack a long term plan, my well off friends have always had some notion of a plan. Not one group of my friends work harder; one group merely works smarter.

and in my limited experience, poor people don't have the freedom to make a long-term plan; if they did, perhaps all the preaching about "teach a man to build a fire" might actually be useful.

quote:

Annabelle: as you will probably know by now I have peeked at your profile and I am totally confused as to why an attractive lady like yourself would choose to hide under such self denying clothes.
If I wish to admire your youthful sensuality, is that soooooo bad ?

Not a very original point I admit and also a thread hijack, but I dont care.
I just wanted to say it thassal.

seeks, surely you remember lecturing me on this back in one of my first posts here about my interest in islam? i think it was you who was shocked that i would ever want to cover and in disbelief that being sexually harrassed on a daily basis could really be that bad. ;) forgive me if i'm misattributing...i have no mind. i do remember you posting in the thread, though, at least.

anyway, covering has been really freeing and self-affirming for me, both religiously and personally, and i'm sure you can find someone around here who saved all my old nekkid photos that used to be up on my profile to look at if you ever get curious.

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i have the kind of beauty that moves...

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RE: The sting of poverty - 4/13/2008 9:27:21 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster

Ah, merc, you think you can find anything more recent? That post was from 2003, the data appear to be from 2000.

hk,
As opposed to what's been given as contrary evidence it's a hell of a lot more current and fact based. Tell you what - provide evidence to the contrary; for ANY period in American history.

quote:

The top 2% wage earners in theis country make 95% of the money. Yet they pay virtually none of the taxes.

I take it you were head bobbing to that tune without any substantiation required.

quote:

Have to remember also that the wealthy have a lot of money in tax-exempt bonds, etc. That interest doesn't show up in the AGI. Then there are the C-corps, S-corps, LLCs and PCs, which all have certain tax advantages. Then there's the old "deferred income" game. Most people don't have the ability to use any of the above tools and techniques.

None of that changes the basic bottom line. - Even WITH all the "cheating" the top 25% of income earners pay 84% of the taxes COLLECTED. The top 1% pay 37.4% of the the taxes COLLECTED. I guess they should all get better hiding places. Seems that they are paying a bit more of their far share.

Then again why bother. Any fact contrary to your belief will be excused with a "yeah but..." rationalization. Always someone else has it better, is doing something you can't, or taking advantage of a unique tax loophole created just for them.

I keep forgetting your never wrong and any failed social engineering attempt just wasn't properly funded. If it doesn't generate the anticipated result it still had "good intent". Unless its really expensive with the a very obtuse goal, then the rationalization is "...but its for the children". Those arguments, unlike the facts I posted, never age right?

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RE: The sting of poverty - 4/13/2008 10:11:04 PM

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Thank You for sharing Your insight hisannabelle!
No matter ones economic bracket, a plan is only costly in the arena of time invested, it is ones actions there after that are priceless.
A good many folks have risen above and propelled themselves light years beyound their initial socioeconomic short-comings.

Bipolarber ... no harm no foul! i was merely compelled to let You know that although some of my people are very well off, that does not confront me on any level. i do not begrudge my rich family members for staying the course, nor do i think my poor family members are entitled to so much as Your two cents!! The reasons vary as to why i am not favored, lets just go with i do not assist in bettering the situation(s)!
b.~

(in reply to Mercnbeth)

RE: The sting of poverty - 4/13/2008 10:16:03 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster

Ah, merc, you think you can find anything more recent? That post was from 2003, the data appear to be from 2000.

hk,
As opposed to what's been given as contrary evidence it's a hell of a lot more current and fact based. Tell you what - provide evidence to the contrary; for ANY period in American history.

So your answer is no, you cannot find anything more recent.
Here, I'll help you: http://www.irs.gov/taxstats/index.html
I don't have Excel.

quote:

quote:

The top 2% wage earners in theis country make 95% of the money. Yet they pay virtually none of the taxes.
I take it you were head bobbing to that tune without any substantiation required.

Then you would be wrong yet again.

quote:

quote:

Have to remember also that the wealthy have a lot of money in tax-exempt bonds, etc. That interest doesn't show up in the AGI. Then there are the C-corps, S-corps, LLCs and PCs, which all have certain tax advantages. Then there's the old "deferred income" game. Most people don't have the ability to use any of the above tools and techniques.

None of that changes the basic bottom line. - Even WITH all the "cheating" the top 25% of income earners pay 84% of the taxes COLLECTED. The top 1% pay 37.4% of the the taxes COLLECTED. I guess they should all get better hiding places. Seems that they are paying a bit more of their far share.

Those old stats again? Okey-doke.

quote:

Then again why bother. Any fact contrary to your belief will be excused with a "yeah but..." rationalization. Always someone else has it better, is doing something you can't, or taking advantage of a unique tax loophole created just for them.

I keep forgetting your never wrong and any failed social engineering attempt just wasn't properly funded. If it doesn't generate the anticipated result it still had "good intent". Unless its really expensive with the a very obtuse goal, then the rationalization is "...but its for the children". Those arguments, unlike the facts I posted, never age right?

You must be thinking of somebody else. I'm not a rightie; I don't claim to be infallible.

Despite what you think, the OP is about the poor, not the poor oppressed rich. SO how would you go about helping people out of poverty? Besides preaching at them every day about how stupid and lazy and shiftless they are, how morally decadent, because if they were right with gowadduh, they wouldn't BE poor.

(in reply to Mercnbeth)

RE: The sting of poverty - 4/13/2008 10:23:39 PM

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lalbobbilynn,

thank you for your insight :) i know planning itself isn't costly...it's just that for us growing up and living in overdraft, for example, it was really difficult to make any long-term decisions because the reality of losing the house or losing the car or not being able to pay this or that bill made it uncertain what life would be like, if that makes any sense. part of it also probably has to do with health - my mother was sick for most of her adult life, so not knowing when she'd end up in the hospital, or, in her case, die suddenly, i think is part of what kept her from making any long-term decisions or plans. i do know that it's necessary for the poor (and perhaps everyone) to gain more skills in this area, because that kind of inability contributed to not being able to handle money when it WAS there, but at the same time, i'm not sure how that gap could be bridged - how can you teach someone hypothetically to be able to manage a stable situation they aren't or don't feel likely ever to encounter? even if someone has been taught the skills in theory, living a life in instability will probably cause them to revert back instinctively to what they are used to, not what they have been taught. and i'm not saying it can't be done - there are cases where people manage to make something out of literally nothing, and it is amazing, but it is also the exception. age and the amount of time spent living poor i think is a big factor as well; usually people who manage to pull themselves out of that kind of situation build a different sort of skillset at a very young age, but many people living in poverty have been living that way for most of their adult life, and teaching them to be able to handle an entirely different framework for their existence is hard, i think. it was hard for me, and i only lived in that kind of environment for 17 or 18 years (of course, i'm still a work in progress, LOL).

argh, i'm rambling here. this just struck me when thinking about this, because i think that these kinds of ideas (long-term planning, "build a fire" methods, etc.) are somewhat inadequate on their own but they do have a place in answering the wider issue of social disorganization and poverty, etc. it's just finding a way to apply them to individuals that requires way too much thinking, LOL. thanks, though, you got my brain moving anyway ;)

respectfully,
annabelle.

< Message edited by hisannabelle -- 4/13/2008 10:26:46 PM >

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a'ishah (the artist formerly known as annabelle)
i have the kind of beauty that moves...

(in reply to Hippiekinkster)

RE: The sting of poverty - 4/14/2008 3:13:27 AM

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hisannabelle,
Allow me first to say i am quite contrite for the hardships You had to endure as a result of Your dearest Mother's failing health. i can not even begin to imagine the strength that must be instilled in Your very soul to weather such agony. That is the treasure i value most from another, for the time they have afforded me can never be taken away. i am humbly honored that You took time out of Your life and shared such a personal experience with me. Thank You, most sincerely.

As for my insight ..... LOL ..... i fear it was unadulterated fluff as i was trying to stay on point, yet unlike You, i did not convey the rhyme to my reason.

What You refer to in Your life does make sense to me, as with all things in life, there is a trade-off, as i am sure You are aware Ms. Annabelle.

Again forgive me, as i have sat here reading and re-reading Your words for the last sixty minutes. In my dire straits i have no way of side-stepping my explanation which simply embodies that we are NOT from such differing worlds.

It was drilled in my head at an early age: You deserve NOTHING; suck it up Buttercup, get Your poop in a group and make IT happen! i also was taught everything i was afforded was by the good graces' of my parents. Now the exception to the aforementioned was my parents detested one another. Perfect window of opportunity for me to acquire any and everything i could dream of. Could we possibly debate right here, right now that i am somehow better then You b/c i had my own phone line at 10y/o, had maids, private ballet/ice skating/softball/piano/soccer/several tutors/band/cheer leading/volleyball/choir/4-H, and had been to every national monument by the time i was 12y/o??

Money does not afford a man with good sense it merely allows them to shroud their BS with various layers!

All that You felt You may have lacked (monies) was the exact thing i was trying to get out from under.
My world from the outside looking in: ..... Lord knows, that bobbilynn, she hitched hiked to Virginia Beach when she was 14; Goodness, that girl was raped at knife point by a black man in the latter part of that same yr; well geesh bobbilynn's cop/fireman Father put her in an adult mental ward under the label that she did drugs (false), nevertheless, she escaped from a locked ward on three separate occasions only to hitch from Ann Arbor to Chi-town wherein she meet up with some folks who took it upon themselves to burn down the home of the man who raped her, as bobbilynn phoned her Father, asking Him to turn his scanner up .... cause well, Lord knows we would not want to go to court and ruin such an upstanding family (mine); For the Love of all that is Holy, didn't they say bobbilynn could not have children, how did she become pregnant at 15??; bobbilynn, goodness child, i know You are adopted but how can You give Your own child up for adoption at 16y/o??; are You flippin serious, bobbilynn hitched to Long Beach California when she was 17, resulting in her being raped at gunpoint in Kansas City along the way; how ever did she manage to jump from a moving semi??; pleeeease, You can't be serious, within days of locating a childhood mentor, bobbilynn had three jobs, tested and passed thus skipping two grades and graduated with her graduating year at 18y/o; well certainly bobbilynn is welcome back home, we will even throw her a massive party, buy her a car, throw some diamonds at her, and listen to what direction she plans to go; cheese and rice, what is with that child, bobbilynn sold her car for half the value, bought a one way train ticket and a set of luggage, and moved to Virginia Beach at 19y/o; this is just beyond bizarre, why is short, classically trained bobbilynn dancing in a go-go bar (cause i was making mad money, and well ..... toot, toot, white chick had rhythm back in da' day!!)?;You see that older man (9yrs my senior) with bobbilynn, that girl broke her peoples heart and just up and married that man without telling a soul, the audacity of her to deprive her family of a massive Irish wedding; that girl is loco, she passed up the US Air Force, and Princeton (Later Butler University's Physician Asst Program was rejected by her as well) to play house with that long haired hippie man??; this is so gauche!!!
Yeah ........ and this is me, finally: Hello, McFly>>>>>>

!
Sorry ... is late, or early, and my parched humor is in full swing. i digress, allow me to temper myself if You please!!

Siiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiighs ......... i beseech You to tell me You are picking up what i am laying down, Ms. Annabelle?? It all seems logical from the outside looking in, save the one domino missed by all. Being raped by my brother starting at 12 yrs of age put all the above into action.

Quite possible monies could have altered Your life for the better, as well as the lack thereof may have prevented my life from being so cloaked. All i can say is folks do the best they can with what they have to work with.
As for the: "how can you teach someone hypothetically to be able to manage a stable situation they aren't or don't feel likely ever to encounter?" It has been my experience that i am indeed an example of what can go astray in life; nevertheless, on some level i am doing as You stated: we do what we are used to doing. My ex bought my (our) 12y/o a running, working car last fall! i volleyed back (after four months of saving) with a brand new HP laptop! LMAO, Try as we might we are bound to repeat our past if even in the most minute manner. After that retarded reaction on my end, i respectfully requested a cease fire with my ex! We will see how it all plays out!!
**Ironic laugh** ......... and You feel You ramble Lady!!
It is in Your sharing that afforded me the chance to share myself as well. i feared my ability to comprehend Your view would not have been seen if i had merely stated: "ummmm, yeah, OK dude, like i so get what yer sayin'!!"
i respectfully request that on NO level do You pity me good woman. i loath pity. Better folks then i have been through worse, and soared higher. Such a thing is IMO NOT as rare as You may think. The juicy stories have a more lasting impression.
As for bridging that gap ...... i hit the ground running a year ago this month Ms. Annabelle. i am an example to my UM's on a minute to minute basis; right or wrong i may be, i own up to it all.
i suppose my point in reflection to Your points is: rich or poor everyone has to pay some sort of price.

***i am no better then You Ms.Annabelle. IMHO we are traveling down the same boulevard, going in the same direction, we just happen to be on differing sides. If by chance You falter, give me a wave, and rest assured i will jump the median and help in any manner within my means, as i hope You would do the same for me!!
Again i thank You most,

Deferentially~
b.~

(in reply to hisannabelle)

RE: The sting of poverty - 4/14/2008 3:33:08 AM

Posts: 1992
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From: Tallahassee, FL, USA
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quote:

As for bridging that gap ...... i hit the ground running a year ago this month Ms. Annabelle. i am an example to my UM's on a minute to minute basis; right or wrong i may be, i own up to it all.
i suppose my point in reflection to Your points is: rich or poor everyone has to pay some sort of price.

your post deeply touched me and is making me think as well, but especially this part. you are a strong woman. thank you for sharing your experiences :)

_____________________________

a'ishah (the artist formerly known as annabelle)
i have the kind of beauty that moves...

(in reply to lalbobbilynn)

RE: The sting of poverty - 4/14/2008 4:33:21 AM

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Bobbilynn: if I recall your first post in this thread was at least readable, since then you have flown steadily over the rainbow.
Whats happened?
Let it all out I say !

(in reply to hisannabelle)

RE: The sting of poverty - 4/14/2008 4:36:31 AM

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LMAO, bordem good man! No cable, or dish and my library card expired!! Pontificating usually results in the colors running together, and errr, ummmm in closing, it IS a Monday!
b.~

(in reply to seeksfemslave)

RE: The sting of poverty - 4/14/2008 5:20:55 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

It would seem to prove that it's very difficult to get out of the poverty trap, however much do-gooders try to help you with 'poverty initiatives' and other 'charitable' actions. So, what's the solution?

Redistribution of wealth.

In the form of living wage legislation.

Few low-income people want a handout - they just want to be paid fairly for the work that they do. It's obvious that there's a wage problem when a third of working people are classified as "low income" There's no reason that a person working more than 40 hours a week should be paid so little that they qualify for foodstamps, but that's the world we live in. The folks who say, "It's their own fault - they should have gone to college," apparently aren't aware that fewer than a third of the jobs out there require a college education. If all of us had advanced degrees, we'd have people with advanced degrees flipping burgers and mopping floors.

There are lots and LOTS of people out there who are working hard, doing everything they're supposed to do, but falling further and further behind. I did the math not long ago and discovered that if I was starting out today where I started in back in 1980 as a full time accounting clerk, I'd be making the equivalent of half what I was making then. In 1980, my starting wage was $6 an hour and my employer paid 100% of my health care and retirement. Today, that job starts at about $9 an hour, I'd be paying 20% of my insurance premiums and have co-pays on top of that and and I'd be funding half of my retirement. I'd actually be bringing home about the same amount today as I did in 1980. Factory workers are much worse off. In 1980, that was a really good job. You could buy a house on a factory worker's wages of about $10 an hour. Today, they're still making about $10 an hour, often with high co-pays on health care and no employer funding of retirement.

Most of the job growth in the last years has been in retail. More and more people have to make a living from that kind of job, but they're still considered "starter jobs" and are only paying a little over minimum wage, usually with no benefits at all. The food shelves are being overwhelmed with working families whose circumstances haven't changed, but who can no longer make ends meet. Some of these folks get subsidised health care or housing or food, but every time there's a tax cut or budget pinch, the programs that subsidize the low, low wages that support our low, low prices get cut.

There's something really, really wrong with this picture.

(in reply to kittinSol)

RE: The sting of poverty - 4/14/2008 5:38:02 AM

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I agree with all the points made above by MmeGigs. She identifies the problem exactly.

This is all about the race to the bottom. The only thing I don't understand is why the "haves" feel so comfortable about having so many others right on the edge of misery and death. In south America there have been times so tough that people would chop off your hand to take your bracelet. Is that the world the people living in gated communities want to be in?

Which came first, the poverty or the gated community?

This isn't the U.S. I grew up in. People could buy houses and live in relative comfort in exchange for their hard work. Now it takes two incomes and maybe even that is not enough. And we do have burger-flippers and baristas with university degrees. Believe it.

(in reply to MmeGigs)

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