quote:

ORIGINAL: cjan

R-T,

Some of the points you make re the European societies are exagerations but others are quite true, I don't say that those systems are perfect, no human society is. Nevertheless, I find that their sytems generally work better than the current U.S. system does to provide a high quality of life for a greater proportion of their citizens.

quote:

ORIGINAL: cjan

The reality of a large class of people in the U.S. termed the "working poor" should give evreyone pause to consider the causes of such a situation in ,as kitt says, the "richest nation in the world" ( Actually, the U.S. is currently the world's largest  debtor nation).

As an example of how this situation can be remedied, we need look only to other nations who have succesfully done so. I know, this will inflame those who wish to accumulate great wealth, but, it is the price a just society pays .

Look to the Scandinavian coutries. Look to France and Germany and a few others. By "look" I mean do some research and, if possible, physically go there and experience the differences. Yes, the countries I speak of tax citizens at the rate of about 50%. However, their citizens have universal health care, free education, to any level, for everyone who wants it and can pass the exams, benefits such as, subsidized rent /mortgage payments to new single mothers, free trade schools, loans to entrepeneurs and small business startups, etc. You won't find many homeless or starving people there. Nor old folks who have to chose between eating and buying life sustaining medications. You won't find much crime there either, certainly not on the scale we have it in the U.S.

In short, you won't find many McMansions to house the "rich", nor will you find a poor class. Yes, for the hair splitters, you will find some of each, but certainly, not on the scale we have in the U.S. . What you will find, instead is a large, stable,secure middle class. I'd gladly pay 50% of my income in taxes to live in such a society. ( And, please, don't tell me to move there. I have and I have my reasons for living in the U.S. for now ). But, I (we) should pay those taxes with the clear understanding between government and the tax payers that that $$ will be spent for domestic programs rather than on foreign military adventures.

It can be done. It's been done. It's being done. We need only the will and the energy and committment to bring it to pass in this great country.

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Major corporate taxation rethink : the current loopholes allow for businesses to shirt off their tax burden. A simple idea, below:

quote:



Under [this] proposal, the U.S. tax base for multinational corporations would be calculated based on a fraction of their worldwide income. This fraction would simply be the share of their worldwide sales that are destined for customers in the United States.

This system is similar to the current method that U.S. states use to allocate national income. The state system arose due to the widespread belief that it was impractical to account separately for what income is earned in each state when states are highly integrated economically. Similarly, in an increasingly global world economy, it is difficult to assign profits to individual countries, and attempts to do so are fraught with opportunities for tax avoidance.

Under our proposed formulary apportionment system, firms would no longer have an artificial tax incentive to shift income to low-tax locations. This would help protect the U.S. tax base while reducing the distortionary features of the current tax system. In addition, the complexity and administrative burden of the system would be reduced. The proposed system would be both better suited to an integrated world economy and more compatible with the tax policy goals of efficiency, equity, and simplicity.

Pay decent salaries, a fair wage for a fair amount of work; increase taxation on luxury consumer goods (cars, toys, electronic devices, etcaetera); no income tax on low income levels (to be decided); reduce the military budget; close all tax loopholes, the ones that allow hugely wealthy people to literally evade tax duties on large profits. STOP relying on charities to do the work of government! Institutional charity is a bad thing! Throwing ideas into the pot here, I'm not an economist, but there are so many actions that could be taken to reduce the poverty level...

We all know why these things aren't being done: corporate power is lobbying Washington to implement policies that are in its favour. Democracy is a sham, we're being governed by private enterprise. Fuck them! Kill the lobbies.

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Did you deliberately ignore the rest of the post, and isolated one comment about corporate lobbies, to make me sound like Robespierre?

These ad hominem attacks may satisfy you on a personal level, but they mean little in the context of what has been, so far, a very civilised discussion.

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ORIGINAL: Real_Trouble

I don't disagree; I dislike virtually all governments.  But let me ask you this: point at one that is, on average, less corrupt, more just, and more effective than ours? 

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This is not to champion our government (it's terrible, but big shock, it's a government), but rather to say that at least we don't live in Zimbabwe.

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Then again, as governments are composed of people, I do not believe it is possible to have a "good" one because you cannot align the incentives or break down the factional behavior that emerges.

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ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

It wasn't an "attack" it was a quote - YOURS. Any "sound like" stands on its own merit. Why not clarify when its okay in your opinion to "kill" people, as part of this "civilized discussion"?

I didn't "ignore" anything and only held up a mirror - sorry you don't like the vision it reflects.

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ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Collarme's frog specialist here  . If in doubt, ask.

quote:

ORIGINAL: lalbobbilynn

i grew up with everything and anything money could buy. For varying reasons i thumbed my nose to it all and further insulted my very self by turning down Princeton, the US AirForce, and Butler Univ. i choose instead to be a stay at home mother who volunteered at Rest Homes, the Women's shelter, as a Guardian Ad Litem, and just for shits and giggles managed an animal shelter. Some of my dearest friends are uber rich; a few others have not graduated high school and live in the same trailer they grew up in.
Last April i loaded my van with a smidge of what i had amassed in the prior 17yrs with my ex, (mostly books, & UM's too!), triple checked the $400 in my pocket, and double saluted our five bedroom/three bath, two car garage.
Your numbers aside .... they are simply numbers to me. i have been well off, and i have been one breath away from being homeless.
In my limited experience my poor friends lack a long term plan, my well off friends have always had some notion of a plan. Not one group of my friends work harder; one group merely works smarter.
b.~

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ORIGINAL: hisannabelle

quote:

In my limited experience my poor friends lack a long term plan, my well off friends have always had some notion of a plan. Not one group of my friends work harder; one group merely works smarter.

and in my limited experience, poor people don't have the freedom to make a long-term plan; if they did, perhaps all the preaching about "teach a man to build a fire" might actually be useful.

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Annabelle: as you will probably know by now I have peeked at your profile and I am totally confused as to why an attractive lady like yourself would choose to hide  under such self denying clothes.
If I wish to admire your youthful sensuality, is that soooooo bad ?

Not a very original point I admit and also a thread hijack, but I dont care.
I just wanted to say it thassal.

seeks, surely you remember lecturing me on this back in one of my first posts here about my interest in islam? i think it was you who was shocked that i would ever want to cover and in disbelief that being sexually harrassed on a daily basis could really be that bad. ;) forgive me if i'm misattributing...i have no mind. i do remember you posting in the thread, though, at least.

anyway, covering has been really freeing and self-affirming for me, both religiously and personally, and i'm sure you can find someone around here who saved all my old nekkid photos that used to be up on my profile to look at if you ever get curious.

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ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster

and the willing complicity of the right (predominantly) in the raiding of the treasury because the Nascar Neocons thought (and still think) they'll hit the theft jackpot somehow.

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ORIGINAL: Gwynvyd

Not knowing what to do after school ( or even university Ed. ) is just silly for us.

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ORIGINAL: kittinSol
Collarme's frog specialist here  . If in doubt, ask.

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

It would seem to prove that it's very difficult to get out of the poverty trap, however much do-gooders try to help you with 'poverty initiatives' and other 'charitable' actions. So, what's the solution?

Redistribution of wealth.

I have my flame retardant suit on :-) .

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ORIGINAL: kittinSol

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

It wasn't an "attack" it was a quote - YOURS. Any "sound like" stands on its own merit. Why not clarify when its okay in your opinion to "kill" people, as part of this "civilized discussion"?

I didn't "ignore" anything and only held up a mirror - sorry you don't like the vision it reflects.

If I say "kill the lobbies", I'm not advocating the murder of individuals, but the destruction of an institution. The rest of my post was full of suggestions; others picked up on them. You chose not to. You're either obtuse, or looking for a petty argument. Sorry: not interested. Au revoir.

quote:

 there are so many actions that could be taken to reduce the poverty level...

quote:

ORIGINAL: Real_Trouble

I must say, all the animosity in this thread makes me understand things like gated communities a little bit better.

Imagine the following scenario:

You are a multi-millionaire.  You made it through college (and not with some bullshit degree like art appreciation, either), and then through law school, medical school, or business school, taking on a ton of debt as you did.  You came from a middle class or lower family.  You've worked your ass off for decades, putting in 100 hour weeks when people constantly decry having to work more than 40 to "make a living wage" so that you can get where you are today.

You paid for this all yourself at the start.

Now, people want to take your money away and give it to those who had kids when they were young, didn't make the sacrifices you did to go to college, haven't worked as hard, and don't have as much talent.

I can understand why people are so adversarial about welfare or assisting the poor; now, I think this is something of a red herring, as the bottom line is that there are many people who are poor not through their own doing, but through circumstances beyond their control.  I think the real issue here is simple - we need better education, very early in life, about how to make strong life choices, how to pursue opportunity, and legitimate paths to economic prosperity.  In other words, provide strong role models and meaningful life skills in our schools, and the earlier, the better.

Then, if people fuck up when they knew better, that's their problem.

As an aside, the reason I am so adversarial about welfare is that we do it so poorly it's almost laughable.  I can throw money off a bridge and into the ocean to be lost forever far more efficiently than the government, so if I wanted to do that, I'd be doing it on my own already!  I'm always against spending money on shit that doesn't work.

To the people speaking about the wage and cost of living debate, I have a few key points:

- The minimum wage should be indexed to inflation or deflation.  Basically, it should track a measure of consumer cost.

- The real problem is not low wages, it is high prices; this is driven by debt and a credit expansion, leading to artificial demand and higher prices, and that's now coming back to bite us in the ass.  This issue may take care of itself in a few years, at least to a point.

- Minimum wages do not always work the way you expect; if you raise it, you may just encourage a company to cut jobs or move production to a country where labor is cheaper.  Basically, it sucks to be an unskilled worker in a highly skilled economy.  There's just no real way around that.  My advice is "don't be unskilled, or move".

To the advocacy of a tax system for multi-national corporations:

Do you mean a flat tax on US-only revenue for them, or a flat tax on all global revenue?  If you advocate a flat tax on global revenue, what you are doing is disincentivizing large corporations in the rest of the world to come to the US, because for a sliver of profit, they pay a huge amount of tax.  This will have the net effect of raising prices and lowering quality for Americans, which I am not for; as an example, many car manufacturers would pull out of our market tomorrow, which would drive up prices on American cars (which are of inferior quality) and lower consumer choice.  The irony here being that most "American" cars are now built from parts that come from outside of America, as well, so even if you are a buy American type (which I don't understand either, given the interconnectedness of all economies today), you lose.

Lastly:

quote:

When you really understand how government works, that's the part that is hard to believe. We know people are wealthy because they were favored in the same way the wealthy and various corporations are favored today. And then there is inherited wealth too. Standing on the long-term benefits bestowed by government and inherited wealth doesn't seem very noble to me. I realize there is the occasional self-made man too, and while I do respect that luck is also a factor and a big one.

Yet our government is not very corrupt at all compared to most others!  Just do the things that are favored.  Thankfully we are relatively transparent in our dealings, and it is easy to see which way the wind is blowing; hoping for some egalitarian world where humans all play fair is about as sensible as hoping everyone will be made out of gold tomorrow.  It's not going to happen!  Human nature prevents it.

Perhaps I am cynical, but I prefer to learn how to play the game that exists well, rather than wish for another game that will never come about.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gwynvyd

quote:

ORIGINAL: lalbobbilynn

i grew up with everything and anything money could buy. For varying reasons i thumbed my nose to it all and further insulted my very self by turning down Princeton, the US AirForce, and Butler Univ. i choose instead to be a stay at home mother who volunteered at Rest Homes, the Women's shelter, as a Guardian Ad Litem, and just for shits and giggles managed an animal shelter. Some of my dearest friends are uber rich; a few others have not graduated high school and live in the same trailer they grew up in.
Last April i loaded my van with a smidge of what i had amassed in the prior 17yrs with my ex, (mostly books, & UM's too!), triple checked the $400 in my pocket, and double saluted our five bedroom/three bath, two car garage.
Your numbers aside .... they are simply numbers to me. i have been well off, and i have been one breath away from being homeless.
In my limited experience my poor friends lack a long term plan, my well off friends have always had some notion of a plan. Not one group of my friends work harder; one group merely works smarter.
b.~

*just smiles*

Very few people have the courage it takes to walk away from family and that monthly stipend. Half of my friends never understood how I could flip off the family and walk away... the other half wish they could be adopted by my family in my stead.. or simply do not know about it at all. ( I don't talk about the yahoo's up North much ) But I think what you said is correct... Some have a plan, and some do not. In some cases of my friends if they did not have that leg up of the circumstance of thier birth.. and who's family they belonged to... they would be in a trailer drinking beer and eating frozen pizzas. Some of my poor friends have been very motivated and gone on to do great things but it was a hell of a lot harder.

I certainly do not think wealth redistribution is the answer. Education, job training and apprencticeships early on would go a long way in helping with our issues of hopelessness. Not knowing what to do after school ( or even university Ed. ) is just silly for us.

Gwyn 

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

Yep, redistribution. The only intelligent way for the poor to get out of poverty is to demand redistribution and if it doesn't happen, take the law into their own hands, then those people with something to lose will want to compromise and redistribute at least some of their wealth and keep some. It is how we have got to where we are today. If there had been no violence or threat of violence the aristocracy and the ruling classes would still consider their serfs as lazy retards who can do no better than work on their land. Today we have the capitalists and many people who should know better saying the poor are poor because they refuse to work. If I was poor and was offered a minimum wage to work in a shit job with no prospects I would say no thank you, hand me a molatov cocktail. We have poor because the economic system we have requires poor people, it is the thought that you too can be as poor too that makes many people get up in the morning and waste most of their life doings something they hate doing. Of course, the system allows a couple of people to buck the system, that way they have someone to point to and say, see, you can be successful, they did it. Of course, they never mention that if everyone became successful middleclass professionals there would be no one to shovel shit for a minimum wage so we shouldn't believe the shit capitalists tell us.