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RE: "I read it on the internet..." - 4/14/2008 8:34:34 PM   
NicholasLeather


Posts: 11
Joined: 7/11/2007
From: New York, NY
Status: offline 		Most things I think are fine to learn from reading, or online.  Things where you can really hurt someone - fireplay, needles, cutting, single tails - I think should be learned from someone else. Of course, YMMV.

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Profile   Post #: 21
RE: "I read it on the internet..." - 4/14/2008 8:44:16 PM   
StormsSlave


Posts: 629
Joined: 2/6/2008
Status: offline 		Reading is a primary method of learning for me.  People in life have told me that you can't learn anything important from reading a book.  I disagree.  I've proved it wrong.  I learned to change my oil in a book.  I learned creative ways to discipline my UM's great ideas to inspire good behavior in my UM's, learned how to train several dogs, and many, many more things.  Certainly, the book knowledge has to be applied before it is actually a learned method, but I can get way more than just the basics by reading about it first.  The internet is just one source of that same kind of learning.  I can take what I read here, and apply it to what I am going to try, and cut out a huge chunk of the trial & error.  It doesn't work for everyone, but it's a successful method for me.

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RE: "I read it on the internet..." - 4/14/2008 10:01:25 PM   
DDraigeuraid


Posts: 321
Joined: 4/3/2008
Status: offline 		As in most of what we do, there are no absolutes.  Some can read about a certain technique, and have it down.  Others need to experience and see.  I do not think that a blanket statement could ever encompass all of us.  Someone above mentioned using common sense.  Ah, that all of us were blessed with common sense..  Learn however suits YOU.  But do learn.  And have to put it out there, please be safe.

Dragon

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Profile   Post #: 23
RE: "I read it on the internet..." - 4/14/2008 10:24:40 PM   
Lordandmaster


Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline 		There HAS to be a first time.  This isn't really a question about the internet; it's a question about how people attain experience and expertise.  If we all believed that we can't do something unless we've already mastered everything there is to know about it, we'd never do anything.

And we love to overstate the risks of BDSM.  It's almost a fetish.  Oh, what we do is SOOOOOOOOO dangerous.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Evility

In your opinion is it possible for someone to read and research an activity online and gain sufficient insight into same to be able to attempt it in real time safely and successfully or is that simply not possible?

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Profile   Post #: 24
RE: "I read it on the internet..." - 4/14/2008 10:30:33 PM   
Lynnxz


Posts: 4813
Joined: 10/3/2006
From: Atlanta
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

There HAS to be a first time.  This isn't really a question about the internet; it's a question about how people attain experience and expertise.  If we all believed that we can't do something unless we've already mastered everything there is to know about it, we'd never do anything.

And we love to overstate the risks of BDSM.  It's almost a fetish.  Oh, what we do is SOOOOOOOOO dangerous.



Exactly! >.<

Real life is a lot more dangerous than a little nick here and there with a knife, or a needle poke.

Just don't be an idiot, and you should be fine.

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RE: "I read it on the internet..." - 4/15/2008 5:51:52 AM   
Archer


Posts: 3207
Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline 		There are some very interesting problems that come from tryng to learn physical skills through online.
They are not nessisarily going to happen to you every time, but you have to be on guard against them anyway.

1. Who in the heck is this guy? anyone with a PC can post an artcle on any form of skill even if they know just enough to be dangerous. Peer review of onine articles just never seems to happen when it comes to BDSM, everyone scared to infringe on the idea of no one true wayism. Thus bad articles get posted and left up for awhile before enough people figure out they are just sub par in quality. So who is offering this corresondence course in BDSM skills? and is it the same level of education as someone who actually goes to learn from someone face to face?

2. There is no feedback loop telling you you've developed a bad habit in technique that is likely to come back and bite you.
When learning from somone face to face you get feedback as to little things you are doing that are not right or could be way better/easier/ more accurate/ etc. This in many cases isn't going to be a huge problem, any mistakes can be handled with a little antiseptic and a bandaid, or a little arnica oil rubbed onto the site. BUT there are times when that mistake can have really bad consequences well beyond the band aid level.

3. "Once it's out there, it's out there forever" Sites teaching physical skills online are cited forever and ever, If I write somehing today and only find out that there is a problem with what I wrote 3 years down the line, finding everyone who has coppied the information for use elsewhere and makeing the correction, is very tough. because not everyone is honest enough to ask before reproduction of stuff online.

I'm not saying you can't learn how to do anything online, I am saying the drawbacks of learning how to do something physical through reading and then practicing alone, has some real drawbacks. But then again no matter which way you gather information about a physical skill you have drawbacks. Personally I much prefer a mix of sources that include more than one type of information source. Read it online or in a book or two, spending time with someone who has greater knowledge about the skill (teacher/coach), attending a class at a BDSM event or group, reading alternate resources to determine the risks (ie physiology books, sports medicine books/ classes) etc... So I can learn and collect information from as many sources as possible, negate the challenges of one format with things from other formats.







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Profile   Post #: 26
RE: "I read it on the internet..." - 4/15/2008 4:17:54 PM   
Evility


Posts: 915
Joined: 12/19/2007
Status: offline 		Thanks for all the replies. A nice array of sentiments.

I haven't learned anything yet that I didn't pick up on my own. I think maybe this goes back to my beginnings as a self taught musician. There is certainly misinformation available online, to be sure. It takes a little time and patience to sort through it all sometimes but I have yet to see a particular topic where the bulk of the information that was available did not lead me down the straight and narrow.

I have nothing against one on one tutoring and guidance - I'd certainly seek it out if I came to an impasse. I have just never agreed with the all too common notion that the only legitimate way to learn is hands on.

Thanks again, everyone

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RE: "I read it on the internet..." - 4/15/2008 4:37:17 PM   
kiwisub12


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Status: offline
In answer to the Quote in the OP... I think I would let someone pierce me who had Pierced themselves several times but not someone who had the book in front of them going "Okay the book says this should hurt for a second then be fine ..... why is it bleeding .... The Book didn't say it was gunna bleed."

Steel
[/quote]


Actually, i think this scenerio would be really funny!!! Talk about sadistic!  

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Profile   Post #: 28
RE: "I read it on the internet..." - 4/15/2008 7:52:15 PM   
graceadieu


Posts: 1518
Joined: 3/20/2008
From: Maryland
Status: offline 		Well, what kind of things are we talking about here? If we're talking about something genuinely dangerous, like fireplay (I mean, assuming that wasn't a hard limit of mine) - of course not. I'm not winding up in the hospital because some Dom/me had never practiced that before. But if we're talking about, say, spanking and wrist restraints and sexual service - sure!

< Message edited by graceadieu -- 4/15/2008 7:53:15 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 29
RE: "I read it on the internet..." - 4/20/2008 1:45:18 AM   
Guilty1974


Posts: 467
Joined: 11/2/2005
From: Den Haag
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: NicholasLeather
Things where you can really hurt someone - fireplay, needles, cutting, single tails - I think should be learned from someone else. Of course, YMMV.


The point is that most people who just start out don't have a good estimate of the risks involved, especially about harmless-looking things like a fluffy piece of rope, and that much of the information on the internet about such things simply sucks. So, while I think it is ok to research the internet for information, most bdsm-activities are better learned from a fellow experienced kink(st)er.

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Profile   Post #: 30
RE: "I read it on the internet..." - 4/20/2008 4:03:57 AM   
Prinsexx


Posts: 4584
Joined: 8/27/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Evility



To the submissives... would you or do you consent to activities when the dominant admits to not having any real time experience at such? Is it a litmus test of sorts for you?




Most of us, D types or S types or not learn knowledge through either reading and/or the internet. The only things we don't learn through the informative route are purely physical things like how to walk, how to have a baby, how to eat, how to ride a bicycle. Memory is in part state dependant so if we learned it by physically doing it we can re-call it again simply by doing it. But memory, and therefore learning, is also context dependant so we can train ourselves to improve by adding to the contexts and meanings of what we know even if the main activity is physical. I am thinking about akido here as although I learned the basic moves and ki breathing by doing, a great seal of peripheral stuff was learned through reading.
There are three main problems then when it comes to bdsm activities. Would I want to be asphyxiated by someone who had nit read a book on it? Yes....as i have yet to find a good asphyxiation book, least of all an asphyxiator who has read it. And if there is a good book then the guys I have played with aren't admitting to whether they have read it or not.
That’s the whole point isn't it? Everyone has to start somewhere in real time.
There's no saying anyway that I am going to behave by the book even if my D type is well-read. And I also tend not to fall for intellectual types.



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RE: "I read it on the internet..." - 4/20/2008 4:27:14 AM   
GentleMistress5


Posts: 17
Joined: 3/28/2008
Status: offline 		I typically don't learn (anything!) as well by reading as I do by seeing/doing.  Before I did any of the things you listed, I would have to attend demos... and even then would want my mentor to (at the very least) be present when I actually did it.

Good thread!

GM

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Profile   Post #: 32
RE: "I read it on the internet..." - 4/20/2008 6:03:24 AM   
Padriag


Posts: 2633
Joined: 3/30/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Evility
Dominants, what are your thoughts? In your opinion is it possible for someone to read and research an activity online and gain sufficient insight into same to be able to attempt it in real time safely and successfully or is that simply not possible? Must every bdsm skill only come by way of having been taught by someone else who already has accomplished that skill in real time? Or perhaps are there some things you can pick up on your own and others that no amount of self studying will suffice?

It depends...

...on what they read.
...on their level of comprehension of what they read.
...on their individual ability to translate what they read into action.

There have been cases of exceptional individuals who read a few books and then actually performed surgery, successfully and well (ref Ferdinand Waldo Demara).  But such extreme cases are also extremely rare.  The point, however, is that all of us have some level of ability to learn from books and then perform the activities or techniques described.  All doctors do in fact learn a significant part of what they do from books.  I think the real concern most have is with that individual who claims to have become an expert by only having read about something.  Perhaps a question we should also ask of dominants is "What have you read?"  That is, if we are expecting dominants to possess some sort of "education" regarding the practice of kinks and fetishes... shouldn't we also expect that "education" to be well rounded?

Or we could just say to hell with it and do what seems reasonable in specific circumstances.

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RE: "I read it on the internet..." - 4/20/2008 7:20:51 AM   
LeatherBentOne


Posts: 469
Joined: 9/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Evility

I think we've all heard the saying "I read it on the internet - it must be true" at some time or another. I read the following sentiments posted in the "Not age but gender" thread and it brought a question or two to mind. In an attempt not to hijack I'll pose them here. These were the comments (the underlining is my own). They were posted by a third party in that thread but that is irrelevant:

"In S/m play you literally are placing your life in your Dom/Domme's hands. You have to trust that they know what they are doing.

Would you trust someone to wrap their hands around your throat and cover your mouth and nose if they were totally inexperienced at breath play?

Would you let somebody who had only read about it on the Internet pierce your body with needles, or do labia or scrotum injections?

Would you let a novice cover your back in alcohol and set fire to you without them being properly trained on fire play?

These are all easy examples. All but the dumbest of submissives would see the dangers and say no."

Dominants, what are your thoughts? In your opinion is it possible for someone to read and research an activity online and gain sufficient insight into same to be able to attempt it in real time safely and successfully or is that simply not possible? Must every bdsm skill only come by way of having been taught by someone else who already has accomplished that skill in real time? Or perhaps are there some things you can pick up on your own and others that no amount of self studying will suffice?

To the submissives... would you or do you consent to activities when the dominant admits to not having any real time experience at such? Is it a litmus test of sorts for you?



I like to watch others first, then have a more experienced person watch me.  Depending on the activity,or how much pain is involved, I like to experience being on the bottom to see what it feels like.  This allows me to be more sensitive, or more evil, when I perform this activity on others.  My submissive is only allowed to watch others especially when Im being trained or bottoming for the experience.
 
I always try to read what I can find one the activity first, then educate my submissive regarding same.  After she observes the activity, then we discuss the perimeters.  My main focus is safety, so I take my time in learning new skills, and introducing them to my submissive.





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RE: "I read it on the internet..." - 4/20/2008 8:03:45 AM   
petdave


Posts: 2479
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Evility

Would you let somebody who had only read about it on the Internet pierce your body with needles, or do labia or scrotum injections?

These are all easy examples. All but the dumbest of submissives would see the dangers and say no."




Aww, i'm one of the dumbest submissives i wonder what percentile i'm in?

Then again, since my wife doesn't test anything on herself before trying it on me, i already know we've been Doing It Wrong all these years.

Bummmm-er.

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RE: "I read it on the internet..." - 4/20/2008 8:51:35 AM   
SirJohnMandevill


Posts: 546
Joined: 11/10/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Evility


Dominants, what are your thoughts? In your opinion is it possible for someone to read and research an activity online and gain sufficient insight into same to be able to attempt it in real time safely and successfully or is that simply not possible? Must every bdsm skill only come by way of having been taught by someone else who already has accomplished that skill in real time? Or perhaps are there some things you can pick up on your own and others that no amount of self studying will suffice?



Hell, the first time I laid a whip on a woman's back, there WAS no internet!
 
All seriousness aside, I think BDSM play is like any other activity. You can research the hell out of it and practice it mentally and even physically by yourself, but you won't know if you're doing things right until you actually try it with a partner.
 
A smart Dominant will let a submissive know when he/she is doing something for the first time. Take it slowly, ask for feedback during the first few minutes of play. If it looks as if you've got the hang of things, full speed ahead!
 
(NOTE: My submissive and I are not edge players, so I don't know if the above advice applies to such activities. Comments?)
 
Les (Purveyor of Fine, Handcrafted Kink)

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RE: "I read it on the internet..." - 4/20/2008 9:53:01 AM   
crouchingtigress


Posts: 4387
Joined: 3/19/2006
From: Maui
Status: offline 		Yes i have edgeplayed (needles, fire, and breath) with novices on occasion. Ill admitt, on this tiny island in the middle of the pacific, where it is a rare thing to have outside instrution come through town,  i tend to be more heavily leaning on the foole part of the foole /wiseman equasion.



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Profile   Post #: 37
RE: "I read it on the internet..." - 4/20/2008 11:25:12 AM   
PairOfDimes


Posts: 324
Joined: 7/20/2006
Status: offline 		It depends on the activity, and it depends on your non-BDSM experience with the activity or analogous activities. How's your knowledge of basic physics? How about anatomy and physiology? What are the consequences if you screw up?

I think that the risks of delivering an unskilled, inexpert OTK hand-spanking are pretty minimal. Yes, of course, there's emotional harm, and that's not a risk to be dismissed lightly, but that's also not a risk that is sex- or spanking-specific. You can be emotionally harmed, or cause emotional harm, while sitting comfortably on a couch and not touching anybody else. Bodily harm, however--well, I am going to be very surprised if you can break a coccyx accidentally when slapping someone on the buttocks with the palm of your hand.

I wouldn't look askance at a licensed surgeon performing play piercing or suturing without having taken a class in needle play.

I wouldn't even be shocked at the knowledge that someone who wasn't a medical professional had made his first foray into needle play carefully and slowly, on low-risk body parts, with a healthy partner, a good bit of research into others' piercing methods, and a good bit of careful reading about the human body, perhaps with some practice on himself, but without ever having taken a class. For me, I took a class on piercing and found it very helpful, and I agree that the more knowledge you have the better, but I'm not persuaded that autodidacts are horribly risky players. Certainly I do plenty of play for which I rely on knowledge not acquired in a class, some of which I had not experienced myself before I did it the first time, and I don't think that all of those decisions were foolish. For example, my own body doesn't take to fisting, and I wasn't much of a voyeur the first time I fisted anyone, but the first time I had four fingers in a friend and she wanted more, we sort of figured out how "more" would come about.

In general, I judge on the competence displayed. If you've never taken a class on the activity before, but you're doing everything carefully and correctly, I'm not about to object. But if you've taken five piercing classes and you don't bother to wipe down the site with antiseptic, then I'm going to have a problem with your practice irrespective of the number of classes you've taken.

Finally, I think it's worth mentioning that the top's safety is rarely considered, either in books or in SM classes. I get off on being the strong invincible nurturer too, but that doesn't mean I can't accidentally stick myself with a needle, or that I shouldn't realize that I might do well to guard against developing blisters and RSI in impact play scenes. Safety applies to everyone involved.

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RE: "I read it on the internet..." - 4/20/2008 2:08:52 PM   
dryfsys


Posts: 22
Joined: 8/30/2006
Status: offline 		I think there is this big thing called  Common Sence.. if you are as well informed as possible with the pros and conts, be aware of what youre doing, and what risks are involved, and if you dont take everything on the internet for true, you can do quite a lot of things reasonably safely
but risks are always there.. even if you cross the street....main thing is to realise they exist and dont stick your head in the sand for them

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RE: "I read it on the internet..." - 4/20/2008 3:41:32 PM   
ELUSIVE1


Posts: 536
Joined: 9/11/2005
Status: offline
I have only done edge play with the men that give the  presentations, and I have done it at munches and socials in  instructional demonstrations--everyone is responsible for their own safety-while I am a total painslut, I love pain, not injury...I will continue to choose my tops wisely


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