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RE: artists should starve......... - 4/16/2008 12:05:55 PM   
LadyEllen


Posts: 10931
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
Status: offline 		Excerpt from a post dismissing the attacks on the "artist" on the website of Euroweekly News, an English language paper published for the British ex-pat community in Spain and the Spanish islands.
 
BEFORE YOU DISCARD THIS: READ WHAT THE ARTIST SAID AFTER THE SHOW:
"My name is Guillermo Habacuc Vargas. I am 50 years old and an artist. Recently, I have been critisized for my work titled "Eres lo que lees", which features a dog named Nativity. The purpose of the work was not to cause any type of infliction on the poor, innocent creature, but rather to illustrate a point. In my home city of San Jose, Costa Rica, tens of thousands of stray dogs starve and die of illness each year in the streets and no one pays them a second thought. Now, if you publicly display one of these starving creatures, such as the case with Nativity, it creates a backlash that brings out a big of hypocrisy in all of us. Nativity was a very sick creature and would have died in the streets anyway."

THESE ARE THE WORDS OF THE ARTIST. NATIVITY WAS THE DOG'S NAME. IT WAS SICK AND IT WAS GOING TO DIE.

ELSEWHERE HE SAYS:
"I knew the dog died on the following day from lack of food. During the inauguration, I knew that the dog was persecuted in the evening between the houses of aluminum and cardboard in a district of Managua. 5 children who helped to capture the dog received 10 bonds of córdobas for their assistance. The name of the dog was Natividad, and I let him die of hunger in the sight of everyone, as if the death of a poor dog was a shameless media show in which nobody does anything but to applaud or to watch disturbed. In the place that the dog was exposed remain a metal cable and a cord. The dog was extremely ill and did not want to eat, so in natural surroundings it would have died anyway; thus they are all poor stray dogs: sooner or later they die or are killed.


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RE: artists should starve......... - 4/16/2008 1:38:17 PM   
RCdc


Posts: 8674
Status: offline 		Honestly Ellen, I am not trying to be an arse on this.  These are heresay - I am simply saying there is no proof.  Other reports state that the 'artist' has refused to answer any questions.  So where is the truth?  Where are the people who saw the dog actually die?  There are people who allegedly saw the dog released. 
Also - as far as I know of his bio, Vargas is younger than me (not 50).

What I am suggesting is that by posting all this.  By signing such.  That by being so up in arms -  if it isn't true or whether it is - you are giving the very person who you are trying to protest about and the act, free publicity.
 
So it's win-win for him.
 
the.dark.

< Message edited by Darcyandthedark -- 4/16/2008 1:39:10 PM >

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RE: artists should starve......... - 4/16/2008 2:03:23 PM   
orfunboi


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RE: artists should starve......... - 4/16/2008 2:07:09 PM   
orfunboi


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Joined: 10/22/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

It is an urban legend to an extent.  It never occured as reported.  It is a piece of art.
I am surprised people fall for giving their names and email acconts so easily.
 
the.dark.

 
According to snopes it is unconfirmed. I would rather give up my name and email on the off chance that it is real, than ignore it and miss the opportunity to stop a sick fuck like this.

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RE: artists should starve......... - 4/16/2008 2:12:33 PM   
RCdc


Posts: 8674
Status: offline 		Yes.  Well you have made your mind up without proof.  Good luck on your witch hunt.
And if he was a 'sick fuck' your signing and posting on here - only supports his cause by promoting him.
Well done.
 
the.dark.
 
quote:

As you may know, the dog was brought off the street in horrible shape and tied up inside the exhibit. The dogs later escaped. We don't know if he survived once back on the street, but he did not die during the exhibit. The artist will be participating in the same art show this year, which will take place in Honduras. However, he will not be using a live animal in his exhibit.
 
Jessica Higgins
Program Manager, Latin America and Caribbean
Humane Society International


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RE: artists should starve......... - 4/16/2008 6:49:22 PM   
Maya2001


Posts: 1656
Joined: 8/22/2007
From: Woodstock ONT,CANADA
Status: offline
quote:

ELSEWHERE HE SAYS:
"I knew the dog died on the following day from lack of food. During the inauguration, I knew that the dog was persecuted in the evening between the houses of aluminum and cardboard in a district of Managua. 5 children who helped to capture the dog received 10 bonds of córdobas for their assistance. The name of the dog was Natividad, and I let him die of hunger in the sight of everyone, as if the death of a poor dog was a shameless media show in which nobody does anything but to applaud or to watch disturbed. In the place that the dog was exposed remain a metal cable and a cord. The dog was extremely ill and did not want to eat, so in natural surroundings it would have died anyway; thus they are all poor stray dogs: sooner or later they die or are killed.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

Yes.  Well you have made your mind up without proof.  Good luck on your witch hunt.
And if he was a 'sick fuck' your signing and posting on here - only supports his cause by promoting him.
Well done.

the.dark.

quote:

As you may know, the dog was brought off the street in horrible shape and tied up inside the exhibit. The dogs later escaped. We don't know if he survived once back on the street, but he did not die during the exhibit. The artist will be participating in the same art show this year, which will take place in Honduras. However, he will not be using a live animal in his exhibit.

Jessica Higgins
Program Manager, Latin America and Caribbean
Humane Society International



quote:

ELSEWHERE HE SAYS:
"I knew the dog died on the following day from lack of food. During the inauguration, I knew that the dog was persecuted in the evening between the houses of aluminum and cardboard in a district of Managua. 5 children who helped to capture the dog received 10 bonds of córdobas for their assistance. The name of the dog was Natividad, and I let him die of hunger in the sight of everyone, as if the death of a poor dog was a shameless media show in which nobody does anything but to applaud or to watch disturbed. In the place that the dog was exposed remain a metal cable and a cord. The dog was extremely ill and did not want to eat, so in natural surroundings it would have died anyway; thus they are all poor stray dogs: sooner or later they die or are killed.


Question is who is telling the truth ???????  

If you understood end stage starvation effects  then  the artist is,  based on his owns words from what he said.... when  an animal gets to a certain point of starvation it will not eat/drink  as it cannot hold anything down it with simply cause extremely painful retching...this requires the the animal be put on intravenous for a while and then fed in very tiny amounts frequently  inorder to be able to hold food down and to stop the nauseau ......so I tend to believe the artist's comments are the real story and that the dog did indeed die .  The cruelty here is that he brought this dog in and then denied it medical intervention  and allowed it to suffer needlessly and believe me it was needless
Here is a dog that was in far worse shape and lived for 5 more years  .
http://www.gcnm.org/fever.html
offering medical intervention could have still made for a dramatic artistic effect  and statement

THe Humane Society did not necessarily lie but also turned a blind eye to the situation and saying the dog did not die during the exhibit is not the same as saying it did not suffer needlessly, they turned a blind eye to the situtation and allowed it  ....do  I really blame them ???.. NO  only partly.. the street dogs are a huge problem there.. they do not have the funding or manpower or political clout to do much for the street dogs ...I am sure they actually hoped his art would help draw attention and help bring in much needed finances  to at least do some humane euthansia for those they found in starvation state or to do neuter and release programs that would aid in reducing the numbers on the street.
On the other hand YES  they could have intervened and insisted that if the dog was to be part of the exhibit is should be recieving medical care and if too ill  at the end of the exhibit to fend for itself and if he does not want the responsibility for it's care that he should have it euthanized humanely, once he paid those children for the dog he assumed liability of  it and it's care and well being was then  his responsibility. 




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RE: artists should starve......... - 4/16/2008 8:14:20 PM   
NeedToUseYou


Posts: 2297
Joined: 12/24/2005
From: None of your business
Status: offline 		Wow, if that is real, it is disgusting. What an arrogant prick, what next, put a aids victim on stage and sip champagne as they slowly die. Or even better a starving child, or how about to combat sexual abuse by making a live noncensual rape occur on stage. Of course it'll bring focus to the "cause", whatever.  Most "art" is complete and total trash, anyway, thus the only reason I think this is possibly real. Anyway, If I caught some fucker doing that shit, I'd swear on whatever is holy to anyone, I'd beat them half dead. I'd just lose it.  

< Message edited by NeedToUseYou -- 4/16/2008 8:15:05 PM >

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RE: artists should starve......... - 4/16/2008 11:43:26 PM   
RCdc


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Status: offline 		Maya
 
If the words are indeed his.  The alledged comment from him came from a man claiming to be 50 - he isn't.  He's only about 32.  So - are the words really his?
 
And sure - lets say the man is guilty of ignoring the animals suffering - then lets all take a bit of guilt then.  All those photographers that take images of men dying on roadsides and who don't put them in their paid for cars and take them to hospitals. All those reporters and photographers reporting the famine in africa and who do nothing to save one single person.  How about those who watched quietly and filmed a stoning of women?  All those wildlife photographers and filmers who don't save that cute antelope from the big bad lion or aid the suffering of a dying animal drowning in a river  because they lost their footing.  And all of us that walk past the homeless people or allow poverty to continue and do not let strangers into our house for a good breakfast and cup of coffee.  Or those who would kill a spider just for being - healthy or not.  Or the people who use bleach to kill living, thriving organisms.  There is no level to this.  First stone cast and all that.
 
the.dark.

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RE: artists should starve......... - 4/17/2008 12:14:39 AM   
Leatherist


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Joined: 12/11/2007
Status: offline 		I guess we will have to make a spectacle of gassing a sickly jew to memorialize the holocaust next. (he was going to die anyways)

It makes about as much sense as this "exposition".

< Message edited by Leatherist -- 4/17/2008 12:15:04 AM >

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RE: artists should starve......... - 4/17/2008 12:40:26 AM   
RCdc


Posts: 8674
Status: offline 		Precisely.
It is done everyday.  Only it's not disguised as art, but 'news' and media.
People are just promoting this artist (if it is true) with this coverage.  Promotion is promotion - there is no 'bad' kind for him.  People now know his name.  The gallery gets advertised.  So does the forthcomming exhibition.  Winwin for all.  Even Natividad is immortalised.
I am cynical at anyone who gets up in arms over one event and feels that a few names on a piece of paper in such an event will do anything apart from give themselves warm fuzzies that they 'did' something and then retires to the warm comfy sitting rooms with their lap pets or coffee at the end of the day.
 
the.dark.

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RE: artists should starve......... - 4/17/2008 9:07:46 AM   
Maya2001


Posts: 1656
Joined: 8/22/2007
From: Woodstock ONT,CANADA
Status: offline 		Dark the way I look at it is that once he paid money to those children for the dog ... that dog then became his responsibility and his ward.     My aunt lives on a farm   .. if a stray dog comes onto her property  and she gives it food which helps encourage it to stay it therefore become here dog according to the bylaws and the humane society ... therefore she becomes responsible for its care and the licencing of the dog.   this type of ruling also applies to stray cats who comes unto your property.   So my comments are based on the fact he paid to take possession of that dog which made it his property and therefore his responsibility to ensure it care and responsibility to prevent unneedless suffering. 

The nature photographer who films  prey and predator has not taken possession of either animal he is photographing nor it the news  media examples you provided. 

And there is no win -win in Natividad's case because the focus strayed from helping the street dogs to being focused on the man uncaring attitude about the dogs welfare and it's neglect while in his hands as well as disgust for those including the humane society for not intervening therefore no win was achieved, because nobody is donating money to the humane society that would stand back and let this occur.  

Compare this to a teacher in Spain who ended up bringing world wide attention  to the galgo situation in Spain, he was able to help pass laws making it illegal to kill off these spanish greyhounds at the end of the hunting season by throwing down abandoned wells or hanging them in trees till they died, starving them and all sorts of odd tortures , the hunters are now required to either have them humanely put down or turn them over to a rescue, his efforts ended up creating a sanctuary which he calls Scooby that can support 500 of these dogs with rehoming effort , they have vets coming in from all over donating their time to provide medical care and spays and neuters, adoption agencies were set up in belgium, sweden, france, england, us and canada to take in some of these dogs to rehome, the political  battles to ensure persecution(sp?) for those that continue to mistreat the dogs at the end of their use continues and reduce the numbers being used. http://www.scoobymedina.com/home_en.htm There are ways to make statement and bring attention and aid  his way of doing so by letting the dog continue to suffer was not the way to do it,  He could have done it through the visual exhibit as art and been successful in his efforts if he had not allowed it to continue to suffer, by instead showing how it could be helped that is the necessary part inorder to encourage others to help.   Which is what Fermin has done in Spain and has keep the public informed at what is happening at Scooby with updates on the animals rescued this helps to keep funding aand needed supplies  pouring in and vets and volunteers to help care for the dogs travelling to spain to  help out. He was not some famous person, he seen a need and found a way to shake up the world to bring attention there and gave people a way to help then showed them what their help was doing     


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RE: artists should starve......... - 4/17/2008 9:12:58 AM   
RCdc


Posts: 8674
Status: offline 		You are making the assumption he paid children.
No proof - only the words picked up from a blog posting by someone claiming to be a 50 year old him when Habacuc isnt 50? 
I am not arguing whether he was right or wrong - I simply find peoples reactions and thoughts bizzarro.
 
the.dark.

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RE: artists should starve......... - 4/17/2008 9:44:33 AM   
RealityLicks


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Status: offline 		Apart from this story's doubtful origins, it's worth noting that most artists I know would be as incensed at animal cruelty as anyone else - and in my experience, probably moreso.  It's a shame that some people are condemning all art and all artists because of the alleged actions of one person.  Even if the story were true, how is that justified?

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RE: artists should starve......... - 4/17/2008 9:51:49 AM   
Pyrrsefanie


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Status: offline 		I've been hearing about this for a while and I am GLAD to read what is at the top of this page:

http://www.care2.com/c2c/share/detail/675045

< Message edited by Pyrrsefanie -- 4/17/2008 9:52:04 AM >

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RE: artists should starve......... - 4/17/2008 10:03:57 AM   
szobras


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Status: offline 		Hello LadyEllen,
Thank you for this post and the link. This is one of the reasons I cringe at sharing the label of being an artist at times.

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RE: artists should starve......... - 4/17/2008 6:00:16 PM   
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RE: artists should starve......... - 4/18/2008 5:14:18 AM   
stella41b


Posts: 4258
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From: SW London (UK)
Status: offline 		I thought it was brilliant..

I've gone through all the material and I don't believe that the dog died or was mistreated.. It would defy the whole point of the exercise.. If the dog had died or had been mistreated I'm pretty sure that there would be proof and the stories and rumours would be more unified and unanimous, but they're not.

However I'm writing here from my lown perspective, I'm myself artistic and I'm also an animal lover. I'm replying late here because I had to consider the issue of using a live animal as part of an art exhibit, which I'm very much against, I'm against all forms of use and 'abuse' of animals for entertainment purposes, I'm against circuses and I'm against zoos. Sure, I'm aware of the good work zoos do in helping endangered species breed in capitivity, but do we really need to take these animals thousands of miles from their natural habitats and put them in spaces so that members of the public can come along and gawp at them? I think not.

But I cannot be hypocritical here, I myself have been controversial (a play about homosexual priests in Poland, etc) and you can be controversial for any number of reasons. The worst is to attract attention to yourself but one of the best reasons to be controversial is to bring something which is unacceptable in society to public awareness.

Like it or not, to be controversial you often have to do things which are seen as socially unacceptable, as in this case putting a starving dog on display as an art exhibit. You also have to upset people, usually with the intention of making them think.

What I see here is art - the artist did create something and he did show something. I also see a brilliant mindfuck and hoax which worked. The artist was successful with his exhibition and he made his point wonderfully. All those allegations about the mistreatment of the dog, and that the dog died as a result of being an exhibit, well they come from journalists and news stories and their sources appear to be either secondhand or come from the artist himself. Nothing comes from an official source or an animal charity which stated that the dog died and had concrete proof that the dog died.

I put myself in the position of the artist, and if I were intending to create such a controversy, a brilliant mindfuck and hoax I'd also be telling every third journalist that yes, unfortunately the dog did die as a result of being the exhibit. Not all journalists verify their sources or check their facts, they work to deadlines, and maybe here you can see that some of them took the artist at his word.

The artist did make his point and get it across. Over 241,000 signatures? Hmm, now if each of them gave say one dollar to a dogs home how much money would that raise? How many dogs could be fed and how many could be rescued?

The thing about art is it's not just about creativity and putting things on display, it's also about appreciation, interpretation and understanding. People see what they want to see, they interpret things how they want to interpret things and they understand only so far as they are able to infer and pick up the implications of what they are seeing.

You people believe what you want to believe but I for one see this for what it really is - a controversial art exhibit. The reaction to this particular art exhibit in my opinion validates the artist's reasons for being so controversial, but the artist can only stage the exhibit, he has no control over how people are going to react.

I don't see him as sick, as I'm assuming he's innocent until proven guilty and there's no proof here other than hearsay. How many of those 241,000 actually attended the exhibition? How many of them actually saw what was happening? How many of them actually know? Or are they reacting to rumours?

Maybe we need to stop and think here.. If the artist really was so sick and depraved as to allow a starving dog to die why would he have gone to the trouble to make a starving dog an art exhibit? Why risk your reputation as an artist? Why create all that controversy? What would be the point of even bringing such an issue into public awareness?

Therefore who is really being so controversial and sick here? The artist for staging such an exhibit? Or society for allowing such cruelty to animals and allowing such animals to starve to death and die?

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