Sexual abuse

Sexual abuse (Full Version)

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masterattorney -> Sexual abuse (4/17/2008 9:49:11 PM)
I have been involved in Ds for a while now and early on I saw a correlation between sexual abuse and submission. The more extreme the submissive desires, the greater chance of a past of sexual abuse. In my experience it is nearly 90% It is common for a victim of sexual abuse to feel low self esteem. It is also symptomatic for them to be hyper sexual, trying to gain acceptance and love in exchange for sex. Conversely, when a woman who was a victim of sexual abuse feels safe in a relationship it is common for her desire for sex to dissipate... no longer feeling the need to earn love with sex. A common idea of many submissives and some masters is that a sub "earns" her masters appreciation and or love through obedience including sexual obedience. Again, an exchange of sex for acceptance. Such a sub is easy to manipulate, easy to get to do anything her masters wants since she feels if she doesn’t, she is worthless. ( I am not saying this is by any means true in fact) I have encountered many subs who have "asked" for very extreme play in order to show how they would do anything for me, or to punish themselves due to self esteem issues. They would ask for the extreme, would even go through with it if pushed, but they really didn’t want it. They wanted me to say no, I value you too much to do that to you. When I said no, I would see noticeable relief and happiness that I didn’t want to do what it was they asked for. I say all of this because not many masters know to say no... Especially new ones. Submission that is based on achieving acceptance, in my opinion is not healthy. Submission based on a desire to please the one you love and who loves and cherishes you, is priceless. What I present to the forums is... Is taking a sexually abused woman’s submission ethical? Knowing it is symptomatic of a grave emotional trauma. Is submission a valid way to work out that trauma? Or just a way to allow someone to hurt themselves? Is submission in reality just a way to reaffirm their feelings of worthlessness, or lack of worth without sexual exchange? What dangers do you see for the submissive who is acting out her emotions from sexual abuse? example... dangers of a master who does not care about her emotional well being etc...

JohnWarren -> RE: Sexual abuse (4/18/2008 6:47:32 AM)
What was your control group of non-bdsm interested people? What is your selection method to assure that you simply aren't drawn to people with problems? What is your ratio of control to experimental group? Have you considered the intervening variable that people in the scene are more likely to discuss emotional issues than vanillas? Have you considered you are collecting evidence rather than data? Phrased simply, we've heard all this before, but there is not one shred of scientifically collected evidence that your hypothesis is valid.

DesFIP -> RE: Sexual abuse (4/18/2008 7:18:42 AM)
Although I agree with John Warren on all counts, the fact remains that some subs are in this because of early abuse. I think the question of whether or not it is ethical to enter into a relationship is valid. However the answer here lies in whether or not this person has the ability to say no, and whether or not they understand what they are being asked to do. Informed consent is the bottom line. And if their reasons for entering into such a relationship is to use BDSM as psychodrama, to replay old tapes and replace the ending with a happier one, then that's their business. If you feel uncomfortable with a self cutter who seeks a sadist to inflict pain so she won't inflict herself less carefully, then you shouldn't choose her. But your being uncomfortable doesn't mean it's wrong for her, just that you're not compatible. And for the white knight types, such a person might be a wonderful match. Because we could turn it around and ask if it is ethical for someone who has a savior complex to look for subs who need saving? If he's able to understand what he's doing, then he's able to give informed consent and thus it is ethical for a sub to get involved with him.

BBWnNC72 -> RE: Sexual abuse (4/18/2008 8:05:26 AM)
Greetings all, Is taking a sexually abused woman’s submission ethical? Knowing it is symptomatic of a grave emotional trauma. From a submissives point of view and one who was raped at the age of 14. i would think it depends on if she received help to deal with and overcome her sexual abuse. i myself went through years of therapy and i understand that 1. it was not my fault, but the preditors that did it to me. 2. i could not have stopped it. 3. my sexual abuse in my teen years does not reflect on me now nor does it make me be a submissive. 4. my Dominant knows what happened to me and will not do any forced play untill He thinks i am ready, no matter how much i want it. So, is it ethical, that all depends on the Dominants intentions. Is submission a valid way to work out that trauma? Or just a way to allow someone to hurt themselves? i think that it can help in some ways, depending on play. my Dominant explained it to me this way: submission is a huge power that one gives up but still knows that they have control, they know that it can stop at anytime and thus helps work out the trauma that has happened to them, even if they thought they have dealt with it, it is still there in the back of their subconscience (not His exact words) Is submission in reality just a way to reaffirm their feelings of worthlessness, or lack of worth without sexual exchange? Giving my Dominant my submission has helped me affirm my thoughts of worthyness not of being worthless. What dangers do you see for the submissive who is acting out her emotions from sexual abuse? example... dangers of a master who does not care about her emotional well being etc... The danger i see is that the submissive has not dealt with or learned to cope with her emotions from sexual abuse and would be an easy target for the preditor Dominants. It would cause even more damage. But unfortunatly there are those out there that prey on these woman, look for them. i believe that the abused needs to take care of herself and seek help because it isn't going to find her. Not caring for her emotional well being is just going to make her a professional victum which unfortunalty, i have seen some woman who like it this way. Ultimately, i think that it falls on the submissives shoulders to know if she is emotionally ready to submitt, she is the only one who knows what is really in her mind and soul. IMHO.

PrincessEllie -> RE: Sexual abuse (4/18/2008 8:10:03 AM)
I don't think ethics should be involved in it really. Well, obviously abuse is wrong, but people in the SSC BDSM scene are adults. Even if there are submissives who have been abused, they are still mature adults who deserve to make their own choices. I don't think a broad generalization can be made about abused submissives, really, it seems more a case-by-case senario. Many people are into BDSM who have been sexually abused, but many are not. I think the reason we see it so much in BDSM is that it's common everywhere. We don't have more or less of it than any other sexual preference. It is really bad that people who have been abused use BDSM is an outlet? It may not be the way you do it, but are you a more "twue" scener than others? And also, what if someone was abused in the past likes BDSM because of the power play aspect and not the sadomasochism? What if they want the security of knowing they have a Dom/me to protect them? I don't think BDSM and abuse corelates at all. Except maybe that we hear more about abused people in the scene because, generally, we're more open with our sexuality and therefore past bad experiences as well.

FlamingRedhead -> RE: Sexual abuse (4/18/2008 8:22:16 AM)
I have been involved in Ds for a while now and early on I saw a correlation between sexual abuse and submission. I have only been involved in the lifestyle for a relatively short time, and I don't see a correlation between sexual abuse and submission because I don't know everybody's business. This topic was brought up on another forum, and many of the responders claimed to have grown up in a happy home. The more extreme the submissive desires, the greater chance of a past of sexual abuse. In my experience it is nearly 90% I don't know what you consider extreme, but from time to time, I would guess that most people occasionally fantasize about something that they know shouldn't be done in reality. As long as the person in question can tell the difference between fantasy and reality, unlike someone who is schizophrenic, I don't see what the problem is. It is common for a victim of sexual abuse to feel low self esteem. It is also symptomatic for them to be hyper sexual, trying to gain acceptance and love in exchange for sex. Conversely, when a woman who was a victim of sexual abuse feels safe in a relationship it is common for her desire for sex to dissipate... no longer feeling the need to earn love with sex. Sexual abuse is very common, and it would be almost impossible not to expect some sort of issue to develop from it. The behavior is learned because of the life messages that were taught. With a little counseling and a few positive influences, the lies that were learned as truth come to light, and the behavior will eventually stop. A common idea of many submissives and some masters is that a sub "earns" her masters appreciation and or love through obedience including sexual obedience. Again, an exchange of sex for acceptance. Such a sub is easy to manipulate, easy to get to do anything her masters wants since she feels if she doesn’t, she is worthless. ( I am not saying this is by any means true in fact) It's a hard lesson to learn that if you are not accepted in the beginning then there's nothing you can do to change it. I have encountered many subs who have "asked" for very extreme play in order to show how they would do anything for me, or to punish themselves due to self esteem issues. They would ask for the extreme, would even go through with it if pushed, but they really didn’t want it. They wanted me to say no, I value you too much to do that to you. When I said no, I would see noticeable relief and happiness that I didn’t want to do what it was they asked for. I say all of this because not many masters know to say no... Especially new ones. Submission that is based on achieving acceptance, in my opinion is not healthy. Submission based on a desire to please the one you love and who loves and cherishes you, is priceless. What I present to the forums is... Is taking a sexually abused woman’s submission ethical? Knowing it is symptomatic of a grave emotional trauma. You're making uneducated assumptions about nature versus nuture. Maybe the sexually abused woman's submissiveness is something her abuser sensed and took advantage of as predators tend to go for the weaker members of the herd. Also, if she had someone willing to help her work through her issues, it would improve her self-esteem, which is difficult to do on your own. Is submission a valid way to work out that trauma? Or just a way to allow someone to hurt themselves? There is no formula that works for everyone. It would be nice if the submission resulted in a happy, healthy relationship instead of more abuse, thereby proving that not everyone is out to get them. Otherwise, the cycle will continue. Is submission in reality just a way to reaffirm their feelings of worthlessness, or lack of worth without sexual exchange? In my experience, it's the opposite. Submission is trying to disprove that we are worthless without sexual exchange. The dream is to be owned and cherished, not used by everyone and tossed aside. What dangers do you see for the submissive who is acting out her emotions from sexual abuse? example... dangers of a master who does not care about her emotional well being etc... The danger is that she might keep falling for the same kind of person who reinforces all the negative things she believes about herself instead of being lucky enough to find someone worthy of her. Either here or in the 'nilla world, she's at risk of being seriously injured by someone until she learns the truth about herself, loves herself and starts demanding respect.

kiwisub12 -> RE: Sexual abuse (4/18/2008 5:13:54 PM)
most of what the op posits can be applied to the vanilla world with no problem at all. Which brings up who determines the catagory that the participants are slotted into.?and can this catagory change? i think at some point, as adults, we have to bear responsibility for ourselves and our emotional health. If we are damaged as children then we need to get help to resolve issues before trying to enter healthy relationships, or we find someone who is equally damaged in a equable way and live happily in a dysfunctional relationship. My point is, is that we can't be responsible for others emotional health. We can choose to not take advantage of someone, which would make us decent human beings, but we can't mandate that they get healthy. We can give them our opinion of their emotional state and hope it strikes a cord, but it isn't up to us. Sorry. You sound like a caring individual, but you need to give this one up.

Termyn8or -> RE: Sexual abuse (4/18/2008 8:08:20 PM)
Almost all of the above, I think. Realistically I cannot relate to all these points, but I can offer an objective opinion for the same reason. See we were raised not to be victims. While this is why I am slightly removed from that viewpoint, I find it more possible to step back and look at the subject with logic and reason. I am not reponding to everybody, because some have given their opinions and while I respect that, that is their opinion, and no matter how logically derived and correct they may be in their assesment, it is an assessment of their own unique experience. This is important. We'll get to that. When we were young we were taught how never to be a victim. Only you can make yourself a victim. When I got shot in the face with a .38 when my Parents showed up at the hospital it was down to the olman was going to take some of the boys down there and try to find these people. He did not start bawling and say anything about how lucky I was to be alive. They basically raped my left sinus with a piece of fast moving lead. Now I think that is pretty close to rape, but actual rape is imbued with more meaning for many reasons. For whatever reason many would rather be eaten by a shark. Perhaps it is a dimension of social stigma. Perhaps it is the objectification. To try to explain, I will use words carefully. I was THE victim of a gunshot wound, but I was not A victim. I do not know how else to put it. You are the only one who can make you a victim. And only you can stop. There is another problem if the abuse comes at an early age, kids are usually unable to think their way through it. Due to that, many times the thoughts, feelings and characteristics associated are subliminated. It is necessary to realize this before going in depth into the subject. Some relevant points do include an attitude like 'He beat me, but he protects me'. But then there are undoubtably those who become D, turning the tables so to speak. If any are lurking, speak up. If their psyche is that of a fighter, that might well be the result, as easily as becoming s. In other words we need more figures before making an accurate assessment of the issue. Alot of this applies to the vanilla world as well. You know both types, they might not be kinky but you can see alot of dominance and submission in alot of people around you. The same impetus' apply in my opinion, it's just that some go kinky and others do not. Early experiences affect us the most. It's like our mind is a pyramid, and as the hieght rises, the area covered by the base grows proportionally. This happens as we live and learn, but the problem is when we get to a certain point, the root cause of the problem is so deep that it is almost unreachable. And then some remove it from conscious memory. At this point hopefully you see the dilemmae in dealing with this subject. This could get thick. T

SimplySubmissive -> RE: Sexual abuse (4/18/2008 8:09:14 PM)
I know that there are no scientific facts that show there is a greater number of sexually abused females who identify as submissive, but it does seem like there are more than in other groups of people. I think that young ones who are more submissive by nature make easier victims. Most young ones have a degree of wanting to please those they love, but it does vary in intensity. Maybe in the lifestyle we just talk about everything more openly, and so we know of more abuse. Who knows? Is anyone good at grant writing? ;)

DesFIP -> RE: Sexual abuse (4/18/2008 8:16:00 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: PrincessEllie I don't think ethics should be involved in it really. Ethics enter into it because if he views it wrong to beat a woman with a belt who was belted by an abusive parent, then it would be unethical for him to do so. The only moral code he needs to abide by is his and his partner's. There is no one way for all. For some, this would be replicating the abuse and reinforcing feelings of worthlessness. For others it would be empowering to have it done by someone who loves her and tells her how powerful she is to be able to do this. And for others, it would be akin to a Take Back the Night march, by allowing her to set up what happens and how, and to stop it if she needs to. The only way to know which is which is to talk to the sub in question.

mzbehavin -> RE: Sexual abuse (4/18/2008 8:49:43 PM)
Is taking a sexually abused woman’s submission ethical? Knowing it is symptomatic of a grave emotional trauma. *Sounds rather discriminatory to reject a woman due to early or past sexual abuse. Odds are good that you will pass over a huge percentage of women in general based on that barometer. Lifestyle or vanilla. Its worded to sound like anyone who's survived "grave emotional trauma" cannot or does not recover and is unworthy. Is submission a valid way to work out that trauma? Or just a way to allow someone to hurt themselves? Who says what is valid for another when it comes to healing? I don't understand what you mean with "a way to allow someone to hurt themselves". Ideally, any hurting is consensual and or controlled by a Dominant w/ ethics and a girls best interests at heart. Note ideally... Is submission in reality just a way to reaffirm their feelings of worthlessness, or lack of worth without sexual exchange? **Submission does not reaffirm my feelings of worthlessness. I don't feel worthless, i am damn special. grins As for lack of worth w/o sexual exchange... does not apply. What dangers do you see for the submissive who is acting out her emotions from sexual abuse? example... dangers of a master who does not care about her emotional well being etc... *** For every yin theres a Yang. Eventually she will grow past it and be stronger or die inside. Thats not specific to the Lifestyle though. Hopefully this arena would provide a less judgmental and more understanding environment to facilitate healing than she may find in the outside world where no one speaks or can handle truth. kaching~

sub4hire -> RE: Sexual abuse (4/19/2008 6:56:03 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: masterattorney Is taking a sexually abused woman’s submission ethical? Knowing it is symptomatic of a grave emotional trauma. How are you going to know whether he/she was abused prior? A very large chunk of the population plays with strangers. They don't get to know one another until long after the first dozen or so scenes. By then, wouldn't it be too late? Is submission a valid way to work out that trauma? Or just a way to allow someone to hurt themselves? Many repress the memories and will tell you they weren't abused. What would you do then? Its cheap therapy, plain and simple. Is submission in reality just a way to reaffirm their feelings of worthlessness, or lack of worth without sexual exchange? I can guarantee you that is not the case. Even if it is true, it is not the case if you ask one of these people. People do not think out the reasons why they do things before doing them. They sure don't want to know if they have low self esteem or self worth. I ran a support group for low self esteem in the lifestyle at one time. People don't want to admit anything to themselves...and until you do you're not going to get help. What dangers do you see for the submissive who is acting out her emotions from sexual abuse? example... dangers of a master who does not care about her emotional well being etc... Slavemaster and others like him, the same fate awaits them. I've said since the very beginning if I were ever a dominant. I would take my submissive and put them in counseling if I suspected anything. They could call it punishment or anything they wanted to call it. In any event they would work out their issues. Figure out why they were in the lifestyle and why they craved what they did. When it was all over we would proceed accordingly. Of course most dominants would not invest that amount of time in any submissive they don't know well. So, crap happens. Of course it is not ethical to use a person. However it doesn't mean you are going to do anything about it. It's going to happen. Just as it is not ethical to claim to be a mentor only to use your victim. That is not what any mentor does..its what a user does. Yet it happens more than anything else in the lifestyle. You can't police everyone you can only be the sort of person you want to be yourself.

abcbsex -> RE: Sexual abuse (4/19/2008 2:02:08 PM)
looking back on my history and when I was sexually abused, I realized that I got into the situation because I was being submissive (not bdsm "submissive" though) without understanding the whole scope of things. my nature to be submissive and not being able to say "no" was taken advantage of by an older man who saw his chance. Through that I learned how to say "no" until I found the right person. So I wouldn't say I'm submissive because of my trauma. I just don't want to say it happened because I was submissive, it was more because I didn't know enough about myself to realize what I was getting into. sorry if that seemed like I was rambling, but I have a lot of thoughts on the matter I'm trying to distill down to a simple response. edited to say: I don't feel like I need to earn my master's appreciation... he's already earned my submission by being the wonderful man that he is.

chellekitty -> RE: Sexual abuse (4/19/2008 4:41:36 PM)
1) not all people who are traumatized develop PTSD - the disorder where, basically, repeating things similar to the trauma have a set pattern of negative reactions (if you want to know, look up Post traumatic stress dissorder)...so not all women who have been sexually abused retain the sexually abussive actions as traumatic, though that does not mean that you should assume they do not, in fact until they say otherwise, assume they do... 2) unless you've been degree'd and licensed, it's probably just generally a bad idea to "help anyone through their traumtatic past"...you're dealing with a person's psyche, not legos...no offence to those that have been helped through their relationship...these are general rules, and there are always exceptions to the rules 3) submission that makes the submissive feel worthless is not healthy, for anyone, sexually abused or not...any relationship that makes anyone feel worthless is not healthy, it doesn't matter who you are, what your gender, sexual orientation, D/s orientation is...worthless is not a healthy outcome of a relationship... 4) as a submissive who was sexually abused as a small child and raped 4 times as an adult - only one time was by a stranger, i can tell you that it took (and sometimes still takes) a lot of training of my brain to teach myself that my worth does not come from sex or anything like that...i grew up to be a really good codependent...and sometimes it hurts to not do things, for my own health...but this is what being on my own for a long time and then being with a healthy dominant has taught me...a) i won't die on my own and b) i don't have to sell myself, short or otherwise... i don't know if i answered the OP's questions or not...but i answered something... chelle

abcbsex -> RE: Sexual abuse (4/19/2008 5:34:01 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: chellekitty 2) unless you've been degree'd and licensed, it's probably just generally a bad idea to "help anyone through their traumtatic past"...you're dealing with a person's psyche, not legos...no offence to those that have been helped through their relationship...these are general rules, and there are always exceptions to the rules I have been helped by my relationship but I still agree with this statement immensely. D/s or sado-masochism is NOT a treatment system for any disorder, self-esteem issue, etc. Going to meet a Dom so you can "work through issues" could end really badly, for both parties. The reason why I was helped was because my owner is also the love of my life and he's supported me in everything. I felt good about submitting once I realized that sex had nothing to do with my self-worth, as chellekitty also said. If he treated me in a way that lowered my self-worth, it wouldn't be successful D/s anymore, it would just be repeating the abuse. I guess some people look for that. I strongly believe that people who've been abused and are seeking treatment of wounds through BDSM need to find kink-friendly professionals therapists they can talk to about it first. Kind of a "don't try this at home" kind of thing. another edit to add: The OP said this: "Is taking a sexually abused woman’s submission ethical? Knowing it is symptomatic of a grave emotional trauma." and I hadn't caught it until I read over once more... again, I don't think all submission is "symptomatic of a grave emotional trauma", it can be there from the start and trauma had nothing to do with it. If a girl comes to you and says, "I need to get over being date-raped, can we roleplay it?" what would you do? i would definitely refer her to a mental health professional first. If it seems like her self-esteem has stabilized since the trauma and she wants to re-enact it to make it a positive experience, she's going in the right direction. If she just wants to feel like shit again, it's not even in the spirit of BDSM. so, therapy is definitely what is needed, in my opinion.

batshalom -> RE: Sexual abuse (4/19/2008 6:05:27 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: masterattorney The more extreme the submissive desires, the greater chance of a past of sexual abuse. In my experience it is nearly 90% Correlation does not imply causation. In order to come to a definitive conclusion, you'd have to run some double-blinds with experimental groups and control groups, as well as have an n of more than the just the girls you've had in your experience, otherwise you'll have some directional problems, i.e. maybe you attract these sorts of women, or maybe this is what you expect of women in general if they sleep with you.

batshalom -> RE: Sexual abuse (4/19/2008 6:08:04 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: JohnWarren What was your control group of non-bdsm interested people? What is your selection method to assure that you simply aren't drawn to people with problems? What is your ratio of control to experimental group? Have you considered the intervening variable that people in the scene are more likely to discuss emotional issues than vanillas? Have you considered you are collecting evidence rather than data? Phrased simply, we've heard all this before, but there is not one shred of scientifically collected evidence that your hypothesis is valid. Oops. Sorry John. I posted before I read you. Bad bad batshalom. (But it's nice to know I'm in such esteemed company.)

Lockit -> RE: Sexual abuse (4/19/2008 6:54:01 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Termyn8or When we were young we were taught how never to be a victim. Only you can make yourself a victim. I have gotten a lot of flack on this. I believe that people can be victimized and move on. They are not a victim for life. Once something happens, they need to get through it, however they manage that, heal and move on. The event is over and if they repeatedly return to it in memory or thought in a way that hurts them, they are not healed and need to find the way to do that. The event is over, the victimizer is gone... and if the abused retain the pain of a victim, who is victimizing them? Through their own thought process or emotions, they remain a victim. They are stuck. They have been damaged by something awful and it was a horrible thing to happen and my heart does go out to them, but the bottom line is... we have to find a way to make it so the bad guy only effects us for a time and not for life. We can remember the ugly horror without it harming us in the life we have after the event. There are hurt people in every walk of life, who do things that hurt their lives. I know many who hate sex as a result of abuse or rape. There are some into bdsm who remain hurt by these horror's. Will we find more of the abused in this lifestyle than anywhere else... I think not. They are everywhere! As to the ethical... To be with someone that is not healed and is still a victim... well that is a personal choice. I wouldn't do it. Would I discount them? No, but I sure would see that they got the help they needed to heal and move on, loving them without contributing to the damage already there.

TethersEnd -> RE: Sexual abuse (4/19/2008 8:23:19 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kiwisub12 i think at some point, as adults, we have to bear responsibility for ourselves and our emotional health. If we are damaged as children then we need to get help to resolve issues before trying to enter healthy relationships, or we find someone who is equally damaged in a equable way and live happily in a dysfunctional relationship. My point is, is that we can't be responsible for others emotional health. We can choose to not take advantage of someone, which would make us decent human beings, but we can't mandate that they get healthy. We can give them our opinion of their emotional state and hope it strikes a cord, but it isn't up to us. Sorry. You sound like a caring individual, but you need to give this one up. I tend to agree with Kiwi that we all have to bear responsibility for ourselves. But. Many become the great pretender for some reason or another and hide what ever damage they may have. Without full disclosure we dont always know what were up against, so ethically it's difficult to cull out damage we want no part of. Am I flawed due to rape in my teens? I dont know, it wasnt reported so I dealt with it on my own. Then again I rarely disclose that item due to all the years that have past since then. Honestly I feel it all revolves back to that responsibility to ourselves, to be as honest as possible no matter what you identify as, Sub, Dom or Switch. We never know all the questions until the time is presents them. (God I hope that wasnt confusing)

Evility -> RE: Sexual abuse (4/19/2008 8:56:40 PM)
There are women who are victims of past sexual abuse who are drawn to submission and others in that group who are not drawn to submission. There are women who have no history of sexual abuse who are drawn to submission and others in that group who are not drawn to submission. Your theory only really has merit if every woman with a history of sexual abuse was drawn to submission and/or if all submissive women have this in their past and that does not appear to be the case. I realize that you are just sharing your personal experience but it appears that you are using that to make a broader point that I feel does not follow. The only real data that I saw or conclusion that I felt that could be drawn from your information is that 90% of the women who are attracted to you or to whom you are attracted have a history of sexual abuse. That is worthy of note. I've never been with a submissive who has a past history or sexual abuse so I can't speak to that portion of your post.

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