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RE: Brigitte Bardot on trial for Muslim slurs - 4/20/2008 4:52:45 AM   
FullCircle


Posts: 5713
Joined: 11/24/2005
Status: offline 		http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/about-us/news/religious-hatred-law
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2006/ukpga_20060001_en_1      (See section 29J for your provisions of free speech)

This is the UK equivalent I'm not sure to what extent it mirrors that of France, I can't speak French but I find it highly likely they include the same provisions, since all these laws filter down from the EU super state, I hate.

As I read it I think the sticking point could be defining what threatening behaviour is. As I say though in France it is legal to drive on the right and that is just crazy so who knows.

Damn I hate proving myself wrong because as I read 29J there would be no prosecution in the UK unless she threatened violence.

< Message edited by FullCircle -- 4/20/2008 5:28:59 AM >

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RE: Brigitte Bardot on trial for Muslim slurs - 4/20/2008 4:58:37 AM   
Level


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FullCircle

Her debating style is dangerous for some.


Ideas are "dangerous".... that's why Galileo found himself fighting for his life.
 
There are quite a few people that think what we do regarding BDSM is "dangerous", and should not be allowed.
 
It's all a balancing act. Freedom to do this, and freedom from that.
 
I tend to agree with Lam, more speech is needed, not less. It's not easy, but what's good in life seldom is.

< Message edited by Level -- 4/20/2008 4:59:13 AM >

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RE: Brigitte Bardot on trial for Muslim slurs - 4/20/2008 5:09:25 AM   
RealityLicks


Posts: 1615
Joined: 10/23/2007
Status: offline 		I can't claim to be any sort of expert when it comes to various countries' laws regarding freedom of speech.  I did obviously grow up in an era and under the ethos that a society can be measured on the way it treats minorities within it's midst.  Like, are they being encouraged to play a full part, or treated as permanent outsiders.  I had assumed that laws protecting the rights of those who might have less power or influence - no popular newspaper upholding their privileges, maybe struggling to create something reflecting their group to pass to a new generation - were perhaps imperfect but that the point was to develop them rather than simply fall victim to hatred because of them.

Before the 1960s - when those terrible liberals held centre stage - there wasn't that much freedom of speech in America.  Your Supreme Court dealt with more First Amendment cases between 1959 and 1974 than in its entire previous history.  All due to the series of restrictive laws which went to define the nation until then, like the crime of seditious libel - criticising the state.  One such case was a 1964 Civil Rights group prosecuted over an ad they placed in the New York Times which allegedly defamed the police chief of Montgomery, Alabama.  It was not uncommon for the authorities to attempt to stifle opinions which were "un-American" .

The  UK Race Relations Act attracted much apoplepsy from right wingers when introduced in 1965.  The authorities silenced these critics by ensuring the first person charged under it was black.  Again, not much to crow about looking back but since I genuinely dislike being accused of US baiting, I thought I'd throw that in. 

I don't think any country has it right but then, I regard freedom of speech as conditional on other freedoms.  I pity those who draw pride in left liberals championing the First Amendment, but remain silent on the miscegenation laws.  These are arguably much more formative in the character of your nation - whites couldn't marry blacks who couldn't marry Native Americans and so on. Some places, even fucking each other was illegal.

Anyway, back to Bardot:  the National Front (far right party) are probably better established in that country than in any other western state.  If these laws are preventing the expression of views which are anti-immigrant, anti-Muslim and racist, it does not seem to be reflected in their Assembly.  If in such a climate an individual repeatedly falls victim of such laws there must be something wrong with them.  Le Pen, I think, has managed to stay out of prison for a while now. 

I know a French Algerian, born near Marseilles, beaten and kicked unconscious by these people.  That action was catalytic in her turning to Islam - her parents are fairly secular.  But Nadia's attack was not unprovoked.  It was provoked - by the verbal violence of Bardot and her ilk.  As a keeper of dogs, she should understand the occasional need for a muzzle.

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RE: Brigitte Bardot on trial for Muslim slurs - 4/20/2008 5:13:41 AM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline 		Unfortunately for her, Brigitte has come to the point where she has to make provocative public statements in order to get a modicum of publicity.

Tough times, and all that  .


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RE: Brigitte Bardot on trial for Muslim slurs - 4/20/2008 5:15:46 AM   
Level


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Status: offline 		So, Bardot told someone to beat and kick this person? Then by all means, she should be punished.
 
And yes, America has its own "speech impediments".

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RE: Brigitte Bardot on trial for Muslim slurs - 4/20/2008 5:18:18 AM   
MissMorrigan


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Status: offline 		She didn't have to, she let her publicity and popularity as an aging libertine/activist take care of that for her. Words CAN be dangerous - to those with a limited mentality who are easily swayed.

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RE: Brigitte Bardot on trial for Muslim slurs - 4/20/2008 5:19:03 AM   
kittinSol


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Status: offline 		What is it you don't understand, Level?

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RE: Brigitte Bardot on trial for Muslim slurs - 4/20/2008 5:23:36 AM   
Level


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Joined: 3/3/2006
Status: offline 		Why do some always seem to think that those who disagree with them are lacking in the understanding department? From my vantage point, it isn't me that doesn't get it.

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RE: Brigitte Bardot on trial for Muslim slurs - 4/20/2008 5:29:34 AM   
kittinSol


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Status: offline 		You took offence where none was meant.



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RE: Brigitte Bardot on trial for Muslim slurs - 4/20/2008 5:31:38 AM   
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MissMorrigan

She didn't have to, she let her publicity and popularity as an aging libertine/activist take care of that for her. Words CAN be dangerous - to those with a limited mentality who are easily swayed.


Okay, so again I bring up what we kinky people do.
 
Someone "easily swayed" comes on this site.... sees me, or you, talk about knife play. Or breath play. They twist what we say up in their head, and down the line, tragedy occurs.
 
There are a lot of people that would love to shut us up, and see us in jail for some of what we do. Is that okay?
 
I don't think it's okay to shut someone up because I don't like to hear what they're saying. I don't think being verbally harsh automatically translates into violence against someone, or causes them to lose rights. If it does, THEN punish the offender. Being so overly pre-emptive about it may prevent certain problems, some of the time, and it also cuts off whole sections of speech.
 
As far as I can see, Bardot did not advocate violence. She mumbled out some inane bullshit, that I don't like, and that many of you don't like, but that's where we part ways.

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Skinned up knees and salty lips
Let go it's harder holding on
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RE: Brigitte Bardot on trial for Muslim slurs - 4/20/2008 5:34:47 AM   
Level


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

You took offence where none was meant.



Then my mistake, my friend.

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Fake the heat and scratch the itch
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Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

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RE: Brigitte Bardot on trial for Muslim slurs - 4/20/2008 5:38:37 AM   
LadyEllen


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From: Stourport-England
Status: offline 		Having reviewed the UK law , (the Racial & Religious Hatred Act 2006), Ms Bardot would almost certainly not have faced prosecution here.

To qualify as an offence in the UK, her comments would have to be (a) threatening, and (b) intended to incite hatred. Whilst they may qualify for (b) they do not appear to qualify for (a). 

Our law also specifically excludes as an offence "discussion or criticism or expressions of antipathy, dislike, ridicule, insult or abuse of particular religions or the beliefs or practices of their adherents or of any other belief system or the beliefs or practices of their adherents... " in the interest of protecting freedom of expression.

This means that whilst it is perfectly acceptable under the law to say "Islam is a load of rubbish", it would be less acceptable (invoking (b) above, if said with the intention to incite hatred - but not an offence since (a) is not satisfied) to say "Muslims are rubbish", and it would be an offence (invoking both (a) and (b) above) to say "Muslims are rubbish and should be destroyed". Saying "Islam is a load of rubbish and should be destroyed" would represent a grey area in this - on the one hand it is acceptable under the protection of freedom of speech, but on the other hand it may be inferred to fulfil (a) and (b) by the obvious association of Islam with its adherents, Muslims - the destruction of Islam being strongly associated with the destruction of Muslims.

E

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RE: Brigitte Bardot on trial for Muslim slurs - 4/20/2008 5:40:37 AM   
slaveboyforyou


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Status: offline 		*Fast Reply*

I think xenophobia is a legitimate expression of a valid concern.  History proves it.  Ask the indigeneous peoples of the Western Hemisphere, Africa, and Australia what happens when immigrants keep coming in increasing numbers to your shores.  I don't consider it racism or bigotry to notice threats to your way of life.

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RE: Brigitte Bardot on trial for Muslim slurs - 4/20/2008 5:43:09 AM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline 		You just confirmed that you aren't getting it at all, I'm afraid.

Where there is a couple of law preventing hatemongering, there are dozens encouraging and protecting freedom of speech and expression which are unalianable human rights.

You are correct in that there is no right to just throw around hateful talk against minorities. It doesn't infringe on people's right to believe what they like, but it does prevent this man , for example, or these people  from using the tools of democracy to kill democracy. 

Europe isn't America: it needs to protect itself from the extremes that nearly destroyed it.

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RE: Brigitte Bardot on trial for Muslim slurs - 4/20/2008 5:47:48 AM   
Padriag


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Status: offline 		What we have here is... failure... to communicate...

Seemed an appropriate thing to say at the moment.

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RE: Brigitte Bardot on trial for Muslim slurs - 4/20/2008 5:52:08 AM   
Level


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Status: offline 		No, Europe isn't America. If those are the laws the people there choose to have, that, ultimately, is their business.
 
Redundantly, it goes back to Bardot and her comments. How did she use the tools of democracy to deny them to someone else? What Muslim lost a right because of her? Maybe if the burden of proving such fell to the prosecutors, we would have something.
 
Or, if it is (as it seems to me) a matter of:
 
THIS kind of speech CAN lead to violence, or the loss of rights, therefore, we will not allow it
 
then that framework can be taken and used in a number of instances. And I don't see how anyone can support the one, without supporting it in whole.

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RE: Brigitte Bardot on trial for Muslim slurs - 4/20/2008 5:53:21 AM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline 		I don't think it's failure to communicate, but failure to understand something that's fundamentally alien to oneself.

We all understand the first amendment because American culture is exported so aggressively around the world. But America knows little about the way such matters are handled elsewhere. It may be a new way to think about things for some on these boards.

It's a question of getting one's head around the historical background, and the social perspectives, which have encouraged European countries to curtail the abuse of the public arena to promote things which are threatening to people's rights.

It is people's rights that are being protected through such laws. Not the other way around.


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RE: Brigitte Bardot on trial for Muslim slurs - 4/20/2008 5:53:58 AM   
Level


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Padriag

What we have here is... failure... to communicate...

Seemed an appropriate thing to say at the moment.


Holy Strother Martin, Batman!

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Fake the heat and scratch the itch
Skinned up knees and salty lips
Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

~~ Stone Temple Pilots

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RE: Brigitte Bardot on trial for Muslim slurs - 4/20/2008 5:57:02 AM   
seeksfemslave


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Status: offline 		If only we would do and say what Kitten permits then the problem will disappear

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RE: Brigitte Bardot on trial for Muslim slurs - 4/20/2008 5:58:57 AM   
Level


Posts: 25145
Joined: 3/3/2006
Status: offline 		I believe kittin and Morrigan mean well, I just simply don't agree with them here, and they with me. And that's okay.... the sun is out, and I'm about to boogie out the door. Enjoy the day, all.

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Fake the heat and scratch the itch
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Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

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