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Understanding discipline - 10/14/2005 2:38:30 PM

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I am in the begining stages of a relationship. We are currently talking in great detail about what are needs and expectatins are.

She has repeatedly stated she does not think discipline will be needed. She comes accross as a sub who states dissapointing her Dom gives her such a painful feeling that should be enough type attitude. She has some experience but not a lot in the lifestyle.

To me one of the major draws to the lifestyle is the whole dynamic of confronting a problem, administering an appropiriate punishment, forgive and move on. I do not see her view as moving on. It is not about pain becasue she like pain. I do know the difference between pleasure pain and discipline pain. I also know I can do a lot of different non pain punishments.

My question is this, has anyone else had to deal with an issue of a sub/slave not understanding what to me is a basic concept. I know a lot of talk is in order, but even if I think she understands, I am worried the first time a dole out a punishment she will get confused again.

Any advice?

RE: Understanding discipline - 10/14/2005 2:59:37 PM

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Do you realize you started by asking about discipline and then ended up completely talking about punishment?

They are not the same thing.

So you both first need to decide what you call discipline. To me discipline is controlled behavior. I am disciplined if I sit down and work 4 hours. I am disciplined if I can hold myself steady for a certain amount of time. Everyone should have some measure of discipline. Even 4 year olds express discipline in many ways.

To punish someone means to enforce a negative consequence to reduce the likelihood of a behavior being repeated. Many Ds relationships do not use a punishment dynamic in their relationship at all.

Do you know exactly how you will be applying punishment? In what forms and ways? To what extent? To what definitive purpose?

Perhaps you are viewing punishment as "correction" and she is viewing it as over the top? There are MANY ways to change behavior, punishment really is only one slice of a large pie. Have you gone over the many various ways you will shape her discipline?
It might come down to a compatibility difference.

It may come down to a difference in compatibilities. Continue to talk about it. Find out exactly what she is choosing to submit to and exactly what your goals are.

(in reply to xanderzzz)

RE: Understanding discipline - 10/14/2005 3:05:37 PM

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discipline, punishment.....geez, in this lifestyle it is sometimes confusing.

As a child a spanking met. punishment, discipline!

Here it can mean and usually does, pleasure.

So, spank her ass for pleasure, tell her to enjoy it for her disipline to you and if she doesn't like it...Punish her by spanking her.

See, what I mean.....Geez, It was so easy out in the Vanilla world, wasn't it?

_____________________________

Just because it hurts, doesn't necessarily make it a bad thing.

(in reply to EmeraldSlave2)

RE: Understanding discipline - 10/14/2005 3:07:59 PM

obis

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From: Austin, TX, USA
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quote:

She has repeatedly stated she does not think discipline will be needed. She comes accross as a sub who states dissapointing her Dom gives her such a painful feeling that should be enough type attitude. She has some experience but not a lot in the lifestyle.

My response would be that it is the dom's duty to decide what is and is not enough discipline. It may well be true that it hurts her to disappoint you, and that is something you will take into consideration when chosing what discipline is necessary and how harsh it should be, but ultimately that decision is yours to make.

It seems to me that is the approach that will be the most easily understood by someone with even the most basic knowledge of the dynamics of a D/s relationship. It isn't about the discipline or moving on from issues, it is about you making the decision. Once she recognizes that, she's basically deciding if she wants to be a sub or not.

(in reply to xanderzzz)

RE: Understanding discipline - 10/14/2005 3:18:52 PM

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Discipline is frequently assignments of actions or tasks designed to guide or further train the individual within the physical sphere.
To teach or train, Action in the interest of order, rule or control.

(in reply to xanderzzz)

RE: Understanding discipline - 10/14/2005 3:56:16 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: obis
It seems to me that is the approach that will be the most easily understood by someone with even the most basic knowledge of the dynamics of a D/s relationship. It isn't about the discipline or moving on from issues, it is about you making the decision. Once she recognizes that, she's basically deciding if she wants to be a sub or not.

I thought about that as well, and I do agree. But to me the problem is more fundamental on understanding and agreeing. If she starts feeling resentful of all punishment, it will be a disaster in the long term.

(in reply to obis)

RE: Understanding discipline - 10/14/2005 5:37:11 PM

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The punishment dynamic serves many purposes, including helping her get past feeling badly about having disappointed you. Without punishment, she is only accountable to herself for her actions. This means she must also be in charge of forgiving herself.

Punishment allows the Dom to decide how serious the infraction was, and what the appropriate punishment must be. When the Dom does this authentically, the sub is truly forgiven, and the air cleared. If she is her own harshest critic, then she can ease her internally generated pain, grow into your relationship, and perhaps learn something of submission by learning to trust the forgiveness she earns through your punishment.

Be aware that she may unconsciously be trying to create an escape clause from punishments she views as unfair, unreasonable or inappropriate. If that's the case, there may be trust issues you'll need to work on before she'll accept punishment per your desire.

It's your call. As with anything else in the lifestyle, the bottom line here is determining what's going to work for the both of you.

Rex

< Message edited by RexLongBeach -- 10/14/2005 5:40:03 PM >

(in reply to xanderzzz)

RE: Understanding discipline - 10/14/2005 5:47:52 PM

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quote:

It is not about pain becasue she like pain.

There's got to be some sort of pain that she does not like. You need to find it.

(in reply to RexLongBeach)

RE: Understanding discipline - 10/14/2005 6:13:07 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: KatyLied

quote:

It is not about pain becasue she like pain.

There's got to be some sort of pain that she does not like. You need to find it.

The pain is behind the Intent.
A Dominant can pick up a piece of tissue paper and punish you with it, while most will say: tissue paper??? that would not hurt, that's no punishment. What is 'Behind' the intent of that impliment is where the pain lies.

Just my .02

~smilezz~

_____________________________

=It's not my fault that when I was a baby I was dropped in a box of Glitter & I have been shinin' ever since=

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(in reply to KatyLied)

RE: Understanding discipline - 10/14/2005 8:32:29 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: xanderzzz
She has repeatedly stated she does not think discipline will be needed. She comes accross as a sub who states dissapointing her Dom gives her such a painful feeling that should be enough type attitude. She has some experience but not a lot in the lifestyle.

For some people, for some types of expectations this is going to work. For many others it isn't. I have a decent article up about this but here is a revelant excerpt...

quote:

ORIGINAL: Punishment, Correction and Conditioning in the Shaping of Human Tools The ‘perfect obedience’ proposal is that the submissive in a relationship naturally has as their goal obedience to their dominants wants and desires. Thus, they will always endeavor to obey and if at any time they fail in that task it is an innocent mistake or momentary weakness. Such a submissive does not, they may claim, need to be “treated like a child‿ to achieve the goals of the dominant.

It follows then in this line of thought that all that is required to make a correction would be for the submissive to be made aware of where/how they have failed and they will then correct themselves in the future. A secondary argument is made that the knowledge of their failure will result in self punishment because they will be distraught at the idea of having failed their dominant.

For those cases where the dominant has as a requirement a set of responses that are either already present in the submissive or easily modified through conscious thought this dynamic will suffice; for those responses a dominant may demand that are reflexive there is reason to believe this will be insufficient.

While the self punishment of the submissive is a real phenomena and the submissive in question will no doubt feel significant anguish in their failure this is not always a useful means of correcting the response. It is fairly common for humans to misinterpret the cause of their own failure or the exact nature of that failure. Any change in the responses of the submissive resulting from a mistaken or misplaced self punishment would then not be in line with the desired response.

quote:

ORIGINAL: xanderzzz
My question is this, has anyone else had to deal with an issue of a sub/slave not understanding what to me is a basic concept. I know a lot of talk is in order, but even if I think she understands, I am worried the first time a dole out a punishment she will get confused again.

My advice? Be clear in your requirements for her actions and manner. Punish when she fails (whether she understands or not really) and occasionally reward when she does well.

The reason I say understanding is not always required? Because many people simply refuse to understand something as a form of resistance.

(in reply to xanderzzz)

RE: Understanding discipline - 10/14/2005 11:35:01 PM

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From: Hendersonville, NC
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quote:

There's got to be some sort of pain that she does not like. You need to find it.

Yes, Katy, I do believe there is ALWAYS a punishment which is one she will not enjoy. I have heard it said that a clothes pin on the tongue of a mouthy girl who is kneeling on uncooked rice on a tile floor is rather effective.... funny.... I never heard of anyone liking that one. lol

_____________________________

Love is a razor & I walk the line on that silver blade... slept in the dust with His daughter her eyes red with the slaughter of innocence... The evil that men do lives on & on.
~ Iron Maiden

(in reply to KatyLied)

RE: Understanding discipline - 10/15/2005 8:16:18 AM

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Joined: 7/5/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: xanderzzz
To me one of the major draws to the lifestyle is the whole dynamic of confronting a problem, administering an appropiriate punishment, forgive and move on.

Just my own opinion, but I think part of the issue, to reevaluate, might also be that the punishment dynamic is one of your "major draws to the lifestyle."

quote:

ORIGINAL: RexLongBeach

The punishment dynamic serves many purposes, including helping her get past feeling badly about having disappointed you. Without punishment, she is only accountable to herself for her actions. This means she must also be in charge of forgiving herself.

And what about for him? What happens when he feels badly for disappointing her, or for disappointing himself? Are his actions then punishable also? Is he not only then accountable to himself? (Seriously not looking for those questions to be answered

)

I just find it interesting how the shoes only fits on one person's feet, when it comes to "disappointments" and transgressions, that are suggested to ONLY be treated with corporal, or other "punishments."

quote:

ORIGINAL: xanderzzz
She has repeatedly stated she does not think discipline will be needed.

Perhaps this negotiating sub has said that she "thinks discipline" won't be necessary, as it's her goal to completely comply with her Dom, and she feels her character and personality are quite disciplined to start. Also, in view of the OP interchanging the two terms (discipline and punishment), I think the confusion can be seen, by the way each term is being applied.

I'm pleased to read Emerald Slave's response (as always). She's right on with my sentiments too. Thanks, ES.

K

(in reply to RexLongBeach)

RE: Understanding discipline - 10/15/2005 10:58:03 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: FTopinMichigan

quote:

ORIGINAL: RexLongBeach

The punishment dynamic serves many purposes, including helping her get past feeling badly about having disappointed you. Without punishment, she is only accountable to herself for her actions. This means she must also be in charge of forgiving herself.

And what about for him? What happens when he feels badly for disappointing her, or for disappointing himself? Are his actions then punishable also? Is he not only then accountable to himself? (Seriously not looking for those questions to be answered )

I thought about covering this in my initial reply, but didn't because I wanted to stay as close to topic as possible.

Bottom line, yes, the Dom is accountable to himself. If he's going to be the dispenser of judgement and punishment, then he'd better be pretty darned WORTHY of having that priviledge. And so, I hold the Dom to a significantly higher standard of behavior.

If his behavior would merit "punishment" were the shoe on the other foot, it had better be the rare exception rather than the rule.

It's very cool to be the Dom. And while RHIP, it also has its responsibilities. Don't sign up to be the Dom unless you're ready to step up.

Rex

(in reply to FTopinMichigan)

RE: Understanding discipline - 10/15/2005 4:06:40 PM

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quote:

Understanding discipline

most replies are about punishment?
two very different things

(in reply to xanderzzz)

RE: Understanding discipline - 10/15/2005 8:17:18 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: swtnsparkling

quote:

Understanding discipline

most replies are about punishment?
two very different things

Hi, swtnsparkling. I think the OP is the one that titled the thread "Understanding DISCIPLINE" and then, he was the one that began to speak on "punishment" instead. That's where all the responses are coming from, as I see it.

K

(in reply to swtnsparkling)

RE: Understanding discipline - 10/15/2005 8:36:05 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Soulhuntre
"...For those cases where the dominant has as a requirement a set of responses that are either already present in the submissive or easily modified through conscious thought this dynamic will suffice; for those responses a dominant may demand that are reflexive there is reason to believe this will be insufficient.

While the self punishment of the submissive is a real phenomena and the submissive in question will no doubt feel significant anguish in their failure this is not always a useful means of correcting the response. It is fairly common for humans to misinterpret the cause of their own failure or the exact nature of that failure. Any change in the responses of the submissive resulting from a mistaken or misplaced self punishment would then not be in line with the desired response."

quote:

"My advice? Be clear in your requirements for her actions and manner. Punish when she fails (whether she understands or not really) and occasionally reward when she does well.

The reason I say understanding is not always required? Because many people simply refuse to understand something as a form of resistance."

there are those submissives who do wish to please and do self punish and need assistance to forgive themselves. regardless of how discipline and/or punishment is done, i'd hope that explanations of what had happened along with what was to be changed would be given. through communication, problems may be solved.

(in reply to Soulhuntre)

RE: Understanding discipline - 10/16/2005 1:54:50 AM

domtimothy46176

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Joined: 12/25/2004
From: Dayton, Ohio area
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quote:

ORIGINAL: xanderzzz

I am in the begining stages of a relationship. We are currently talking in great detail about what are needs and expectatins are.

She has repeatedly stated she does not think discipline will be needed. She comes accross as a sub who states dissapointing her Dom gives her such a painful feeling that should be enough type attitude. She has some experience but not a lot in the lifestyle.

To me one of the major draws to the lifestyle is the whole dynamic of confronting a problem, administering an appropiriate punishment, forgive and move on. I do not see her view as moving on. It is not about pain becasue she like pain. I do know the difference between pleasure pain and discipline pain. I also know I can do a lot of different non pain punishments.

My question is this, has anyone else had to deal with an issue of a sub/slave not understanding what to me is a basic concept. I know a lot of talk is in order, but even if I think she understands, I am worried the first time a dole out a punishment she will get confused again.

Any advice?

I encountered a novice submissive who was uninterested in the s & m aspects of WIITWD. She had similar objections to the use of corporal punishment as a training tool. I "compromised" with her. I reserved corporal punishments for those infractions that were, by definition, willful disobedience. This not a solution, IMO, unless one is extremely certain of the integrity of the submissive in question. While I do believe that negative feedback, in the form of corporal punishments, is key to behavior modification, the threat of such does wonders for teaching discipline in most subjects.
Timothy

(in reply to xanderzzz)

RE: Understanding discipline - 10/16/2005 4:40:50 AM

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I could be wrong but I think one or both of you is not understanding what she actually said.

quote:

ORIGINAL: xanderzzz
She has repeatedly stated she does not think discipline will be needed.

I think she means punishment where you've written "discipline". It is quite normal for subs to have a fear of failing their Dom/me and often they will punish themselves emotionally far more than their Dom/me might physically. That ingrained need for a sub to please is why I find actual punishment to be so rare as to be almost unnecessary. It's usually enough for her to know that that option is there and how I'll administer it if and when it's necessary.

Discipline is a whole other beast. To me, it's the "nuts and bolts" of the relationship dynamic. I'm in charge, I make the rules and set the standards & guidelines etc - and she follows them, simple enough.... But whether in or out of a formal scene, if I don't like how she responds, I'll discipline her in some way. It's usually something short and sharp but may only be a knowing look - whatever I deem appropriate at the time. And it's *FUN* - for both Dom and sub.... I actually don't mind the occasional bit of attitude and it's her butt if she goes too far and we both know and accept that.

Erotic pain, bondage etc are also fun but it's what we do and has nothing to do with discipline or punishment. For me, I'll tweak a nipple, slap her face or sting her butt etc as an act of discipline but I won't touch her at all if I'm punishing her.... In a sense I agree with your girl if I'm to punish her - I punish by not allowing her to please me.

I think you have a problem not just of communication, but of BDSM "language", too! You should revisit your own understanding of what you believe to be a "basic concept" because it seems your girl has more idea than you.... "Punish" has a powerful meaning to most in the lifestyle but especially subs! You throw the word around far too easily in everyday language and many subs would see a focus on punishment as a major red flag. Your girl most likely wants to please you out of need, NOT *fear*. Why not let her do what comes naturally to her? Your "job" is to make sure she does it *right*....

Focus.

(in reply to xanderzzz)

RE: Understanding discipline - 10/16/2005 5:24:28 AM

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quote:

there are those submissives who do wish to please and do self punish and need assistance to forgive themselves.

I want to see this repeated, I think it's an important thing to remember.

(in reply to Focus50)

RE: Understanding discipline - 10/16/2005 5:36:04 AM

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quote:

quote:

there are those submissives who do wish to please and do self punish and need assistance to forgive themselves.

I want to see this repeated, I think it's an important thing to remember.

DITTO!

(in reply to KatyLied)

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