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Nuclear energy: best hope, or deal with the devil? - 5/2/2008 7:25:52 PM   
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Four years ago this month, James Lovelock upset a lot of his fans. Lovelock was revered in the green movement for developing the Gaia hypothesis, which links everything on earth to a dynamic, organic whole. Writing in the British newspaper The Independent, Lovelock stated in an op-ed: “We have no time to experiment with visionary energy sources; civilisation is in imminent danger and has to use nuclear—the one safe, available energy source—now or suffer the pain soon to be inflicted by our outraged planet.”

Lovelock explained that his decision to endorse nuclear power was motivated by his fear of the consequences of global warming and by reports of increasing fossil-fuel emissions that drive the warming. Jesse Ausubel, head of the Program for the Human Environment at Rockefeller University, recently echoed Lovelock’s sentiment. “As a green, I care intensely about land-sparing, about leaving land for nature,” he wrote. “To reach the scale at which they would contribute importantly to meeting global energy demand, renewable sources of energy such as wind, water, and biomass cause serious environmental harm. Measuring renewables in watts per square meter, nuclear has astronomical advantages over its competitors.” All of this has led several other prominent environmentalists to publicly favor new nuclear plants. I had a similar change of heart. For years I opposed nuclear power, but while I was researching my book Power to Save the World: The Truth About Nuclear Energy, my views completely turned around.


http://discovermagazine.com/2008/may/02-is-nuclear-energy-our-best-hope

France, and other nations, have done well with it, but then one thinks of Three Mile Island, or Chernobyl......

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RE: Nuclear energy: best hope, or deal with the devil? - 5/2/2008 8:11:35 PM   
Owner59


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 When I was a youngster,the "Weekly Reader"(a national school news paper)had an article about nuclear energy. It was relatively new back then and the peaceful atom was a big part of the pro-nuclear sales pitch.

Even then, it was acknowledged that the only drawback(other than the "China Syndrome")to the technology was nuclear waste.......

But,...."they " were on the verge of solving that problem.

Well,some 40 years later,"they" still haven`t solved the waste problem and Yukka Mountain ain`t have`n any part of it.

I honestly don`t see the waste problem being solved and just storing it forever is not an option.

Taking the power today and leaving the waste for our kids to deal with tomorrow,  is selfish,irresponsible and also not an option.

Added:

Capitalism doesn`t mean steal ,lie and cheat the future.That`s what thieves do.

Capitalism doesn`t mean borrow on the future or poison it either.That what shysters do.

Capitalism doesn`t mean profit over people,or at least it shouldn`t.

The economy and industry are here to serve society,not the other way around.

< Message edited by Owner59 -- 5/2/2008 8:45:19 PM >

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RE: Nuclear energy: best hope, or deal with the devil? - 5/2/2008 8:25:07 PM   
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       Only solutions which meet the pre-existing agenda are acceptable. 

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RE: Nuclear energy: best hope, or deal with the devil? - 5/2/2008 8:26:38 PM   
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Which agenda?

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RE: Nuclear energy: best hope, or deal with the devil? - 5/2/2008 8:28:24 PM   
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      Capitalism baa-aaad. 


      And when you get down to it, humans baa-aaad.

< Message edited by TheHeretic -- 5/2/2008 8:32:30 PM >


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RE: Nuclear energy: best hope, or deal with the devil? - 5/2/2008 8:31:54 PM   
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Actually, while you folks were sleeping, or drunk or whoremongering, cyberdude and I have agreed that coal-fired plasma is the way to go. It nearly sings!!!!!

Pick up your door prizes on the way out, and don't forget to pick up your towel.
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RE: Nuclear energy: best hope, or deal with the devil? - 5/2/2008 8:42:04 PM   
bipolarber


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Um, yeah...
Tell us all what we're going to do witht he waste, and maybe I'll change my views. So long as construction of the plants keeps going to the lowest bidding contractor, I'll be a staunch opponent of nukes.

I notice they never once mentioned fusion, or even advancements in solar. (Check out what Germany's up to in solar... they're planning on having 1/3 of their electrical needs met by solar by 2012.) The US and other parts of the world could easily follow suit.

I'm sure there are places and situations where nuke plants would be appropriate. But this "all eggs in one basket" approach is what got us into this mess in the first place.

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RE: Nuclear energy: best hope, or deal with the devil? - 5/2/2008 8:53:17 PM   
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UM, YEAH------NOTHING.


Look, there aint no nuclear about it.

Japs can burn baby diapers as a plasma reaction.
Mother Earth news some 20 years ago built a coal fired plasma reactor./

put it together, we got a viable garbage burner, and heating source today, no new fanstastical or serouisly flawed tech.

From there we can dream.

Hella better than burning corn for heat for your ass.

Think about it, you got time. (Some say, not much, tho!)

Ron

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RE: Nuclear energy: best hope, or deal with the devil? - 5/2/2008 8:57:24 PM   
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Interestingly enough, I was reading Mother Jones at the dentist's on Monday, and there was an article about whether it's time to reconsider nuclear. Alas, I'd only started it when they started messing with my teeth again.

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RE: Nuclear energy: best hope, or deal with the devil? - 5/2/2008 9:01:34 PM   
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Nuclear is a great option if construction and operation are very closely monitored. The only real problem is what to do with the waste. Deep burial in salt mines seems a good solution but has run into NIMBY problems.

Fundamentally the US is wasting a valuable resource by not building reactors. The US Navy trains nuclear plant personel better and more thoroughly than anyone else anywhere and with almost all the nuke plants decommissioned that training goes to waste.

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RE: Nuclear energy: best hope, or deal with the devil? - 5/2/2008 9:15:41 PM   
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Nuclear waste is no problem: England is happy to take in all your nuclear leftovers - she loves them. Just charges a nominal fee and hey presto! They're no longer your problem.

As for building plants here, please don't do it. They require insane amounts of monitoring and you guys just aren't... huh... well organised enough to take care of these babies . Leave it to the specialists, and buy from them. If you find a way  .

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RE: Nuclear energy: best hope, or deal with the devil? - 5/2/2008 9:58:49 PM   
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As easily as we can build nuclear power plants we can do what is outlined here and invest in solar instead:
http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2008/04/14/solar_electric_thermal/print.html

Did you know that instead of fighting a $3 trillion dollar war over resources that no one needs you could have more intelligently bought a solar panel system for every house in the USA? That would have meant free electrical for the house and probably enough juice for your car too.

But, you know, that would make too much sense...


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RE: Nuclear energy: best hope, or deal with the devil? - 5/2/2008 10:48:24 PM   
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SugarMyChurro

As easily as we can build nuclear power plants we can do what is outlined here and invest in solar instead:
http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2008/04/14/solar_electric_thermal/print.html

Did you know that instead of fighting a $3 trillion dollar war over resources that no one needs you could have more intelligently bought a solar panel system for every house in the USA? That would have meant free electrical for the house and probably enough juice for your car too.

But, you know, that would make too much sense...




Of course not, because then you would eliminate demand that big companies want to get rich supplying. Nosir, we can't have that-it's unAmerican!

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RE: Nuclear energy: best hope, or deal with the devil? - 5/2/2008 11:21:01 PM   
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quote:

ORIGINAL: bipolarber
(Check out what Germany's up to in solar... they're planning on having 1/3 of their electrical needs met by solar by 2012.) The US and other parts of the world could easily follow suit.

Not sure where you heard that, but I'm pretty sure it's not true - and it certainly isn't feasible. They're aiming for 20% renewables by 2020, the vast majority of which will not be solar. See here.

quote:

I'm sure there are places and situations where nuke plants would be appropriate. But this "all eggs in one basket" approach is what got us into this mess in the first place.

That I can agree with, but in the short-term nuclear probably is the best bet for meeting a sizable chunk of our energy needs... and it's a good deal better than the fossil fuel status quo. Modern designs make incidents like Chernobyl unlikely in the extreme. The waste storage is something of an issue, but quite honestly, I feel radioactive waste has taken on a menace in popular perception that's rather out of proportion to the actual risks it poses.

I don't see nuclear as the long-term goal, but I do think it can be effectively used as a bridge to the time when technologies with lower environmental impact, like solar, can meet all the energy needs. As long as it's pursued in a way that doesn't substantially detract from those, I'd welcome replacing fossil fuel plants with nuclear ones.

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RE: Nuclear energy: best hope, or deal with the devil? - 5/2/2008 11:41:29 PM   
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It's been my experience that when the word 'nuclear' is mentioned, they go into a 'fear lockdown' mode for the lack of a better term, and refuse to listen to reason.  There are several reasons for this, Chernobyl, Hiroshima, the media, being a few.  But it seems that we're all rational here.

A lot of this reasoning is based on a blend of new threats and old technology.  The newest of the majority of nuke plants were built in the 70's  with technology that was already old by 1970's standards.  Analog gauges, minimal computer technology and antiquated colling and control systems as another poster said are monitoring intensive, as well as maintenance intensive.  We have come a long way since then, including breeder reactors that combine both fission (splitting atoms) and fusion (fusing atoms) that use it's fuel much more efficient and produces much, much less waste that is less radioactive..  A reactor just developed can power a apartment complex that only stands 12 feet high or so and maybe half that in diameter, no control rods and a cooling system that does not even need outside cooling towers and only needs minimal monitoring.

The US, German,and British Navies are a excellent example of how safe modern reactor systems can be.  And  being used in a confined spaces to boot.  So modern nuke plants are safe.  Many will even shut themselves down automatically if something goes wrong.  The main reason, I suspect, that no more main power plant reactors are being built save for experimental ones, is a combination of fear from the general public who won't listen to reason, eviromentalists for the same reason, politicians who can't look good doing it, and utility conglomerates who get kickbacks from oil, gas and coal conglomerates.

As to the terrorist threat (the one calling for terrorists to kamikaze into them) it is plausible, but there are others who can speak with more authority, but with modern anti-aircraft artillery, and security systems, most plausible threats can be dealt with.

So, in essence, modern nuclear power systems are safe.  And if you're worried about the waste, there has been proposal to put it on rockets (older systems such as the Delta II and Delta III rockets, or even decomissioned  Polaris rockets) and shoot it into the sun where it just burns up as regular fuel.

That's the way I see it.  But I build towers for large windmills, so wind energy will be a be keeping busy.


< Message edited by wulfgarw -- 5/2/2008 11:44:28 PM >

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RE: Nuclear energy: best hope, or deal with the devil? - 5/2/2008 11:48:04 PM   
mnottertail


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I frankly do not see why this is always couched as batmobiles or sunshine energy.


This is why nothing will happen until it is an emergency.

Diapers, or halocaust.



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RE: Nuclear energy: best hope, or deal with the devil? - 5/2/2008 11:58:07 PM   
Owner59


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quote:

ORIGINAL: wulfgarw

It's been my experience that when the word 'nuclear' is mentioned, they go into a 'fear lockdown' mode for the lack of a better term, and refuse to listen to reason.  There are several reasons for this, Chernobyl, Hiroshima, the media, being a few.  But it seems that we're all rational here.

A lot of this reasoning is based on a blend of new threats and old technology.  The newest of the majority of nuke plants were built in the 70's  with technology that was already old by 1970's standards.  Analog gauges, minimal computer technology and antiquated colling and control systems as another poster said are monitoring intensive, as well as maintenance intensive.  We have come a long way since then, including breeder reactors that combine both fission (splitting atoms) and fusion (fusing atoms) that use it's fuel much more efficient and produces much, much less waste that is less radioactive..  A reactor just developed can power a apartment complex that only stands 12 feet high or so and maybe half that in diameter, no control rods and a cooling system that does not even need outside cooling towers and only needs minimal monitoring.

The US, German,and British Navies are a excellent example of how safe modern reactor systems can be.  And  being used in a confined spaces to boot.  So modern nuke plants are safe.  Many will even shut themselves down automatically if something goes wrong.  The main reason, I suspect, that no more main power plant reactors are being built save for experimental ones, is a combination of fear from the general public who won't listen to reason, eviromentalists for the same reason, politicians who can't look good doing it, and utility conglomerates who get kickbacks from oil, gas and coal conglomerates.

As to the terrorist threat (the one calling for terrorists to kamikaze into them) it is plausible, but there are others who can speak with more authority, but with modern anti-aircraft artillery, and security systems, most plausible threats can be dealt with.

So, in essence, modern nuclear power systems are safe.  And if you're worried about the waste, there has been proposal to put it on rockets (older systems such as the Delta II and Delta III rockets, or even decomissioned  Polaris rockets) and shoot it into the sun where it just burns up as regular fuel.

That's the way I see it.  But I build towers for large windmills, so wind energy will be a be keeping busy.



"And if you're worried about the waste, there has been proposal to put it on rockets (older systems such as the Delta II and Delta III rockets, or even decomissioned  Polaris rockets) and shoot it into the sun where it just burns up as regular fuel."



Holly shit,load nuke waste on "old rockets",sorry,gotta laugh out loud,.........and shoot them into outer space.......holly fuck`n shit.lol

Let`s just load the stuff into freak`n sharks with freak`n laser beams attached to their heads and .......

But seriously,imagine a rocket full of nuclear waste exploding on take off(we`re talk`n old technology here,right?)or while ascending a mile up.Jesus,that would be just peachy!


If the 1st part of your shpeal is anything like that last part,I don`t see a future in nuclear power.

Where did you hear that?!?!

< Message edited by Owner59 -- 5/3/2008 12:02:22 AM >

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RE: Nuclear energy: best hope, or deal with the devil? - 5/3/2008 1:35:30 AM   
shallowdeep


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59
I honestly don`t see the waste problem being solved and just storing it forever is not an option.

First, storing it "forever" is an option, because the stuff doesn't last forever. In fact, the most radioactive isotopes decay the most rapidly. Within 10,000 years there will be a very significant reduction in radioactivity, within a million it won't be appreciably different than the uranium that we took out of the ground in the first place, so putting it back in ceases to be an issue. The question is can we store it safely enough, long enough. A repository like Yucca Mountain can meet the 10,000 year mark with a high degree of confidence, and probably the million year mark too. Even in the case that it doesn't, the results will be localized and far from catastrophic.

I understand your point about not wanting to leave it for a future solution (I'm still waiting on the flying car my Weekly Reader promised within five years), but I guess I'm inherently optimistic about the future. If 1000 years from now humanity decides that it doesn't want to deal with the small risk of the waste, there are some solutions I can think of that should be viable by then.

One has already been mentioned: sending it into space - either the sun, or some planet/moon/asteroid designated as a repository. We currently don't have the lift capacity or safety record to make that viable, but if, 1000 years from now, humanity still hasn't figured out how to safely take large amounts of mass into space or hasn't made substantial progress on cancer (rendering the waste innocuous), then it probably has bigger things to worry about than a relatively small amount of buried radioactive waste. Besides, the even smaller amount that might leak out will actually be beneficial. After a thousand years with no progress, I say it's time to inject some mutations and speed evolution along.

And, yes, that last was facetious.

quote:

Taking the power today and leaving the waste for our kids to deal with tomorrow, is selfish,irresponsible and also not an option.

If there were a no risk alternative, I'd be inclined to agree. But that isn't the case. As the article Level linked points out, the soot from coal power plants alone kills 24,000 Americans prematurely each year. That's more than the radioactive waste is ever likely to do. Factor in the effect that unchecked carbon emissions are going to have, and the status quo becomes untenable. If I thought there were a better way than nuclear power to alter that status quo, I wouldn't be supporting nuclear. Solar energy has a lot of promise, but even in the more optimistic plans (speaking only of those that have actually been thought out a bit) it's going to take a long time to transition fully. The physical resources and infrastructure changes required dwarf those necessary for nuclear. If we really want to make a difference within the next 20-30 years, I think nuclear power is going to have to shoulder most of the burden.

[edited to fix link]

< Message edited by shallowdeep -- 5/3/2008 1:37:33 AM >

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RE: Nuclear energy: best hope, or deal with the devil? - 5/3/2008 1:38:53 AM   
Leatherist


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They seem to be drying it out and encasing it in molten glass now. Then putting it down dry salt mines. I don't think it's going to do much there.

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RE: Nuclear energy: best hope, or deal with the devil? - 5/3/2008 1:41:20 AM   
mnottertail


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Well, don't point to this as me supporting nuke when we could do better cheaper faster with less hassle, but I could fuck my great great grandkids some 2-400 years down the road with a fucked up dirty waste plan or choke them with garbage while I am still alive..watch them die, as opposed to foist off a solvable problem in future times..............uhhhhhhhhhhhhh, can't make up my mind, throw in a blowjob to start the negotiation process, anew!!!!!

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