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Is it possible to not know you are a slave at heart? - 10/19/2005 4:05:17 PM   
yA4me


Posts: 14
Joined: 10/17/2005
Status: offline 		Here is a "doosie" for me, so I'm almost afraid of what I will get back from all of you... I'll try not to oversimplify.

She has a "hidden" interest in BDSM. She would show interest in TV shows, etc, that depict bondage scenes. I believe that she wouldn't admit her needs because it went against how she pictured herself, or how society views it. But her face as she watched... It was obvious...

My wife has always described herself as a submissive child with an abusive father. This caused her to become what she calls "stong", which means that she feels that she needed to completely dominate her relationships. This made her, and everyone else, very unhappy. She calls herself as a "feminist", mostly to ward off potential villains...

To make a long story short (I'm leaving out a lot of details...), her behavior nearly cost us our marriage. I have always ruled my relationships, and honestly got tired of being treated with disrespect. I ended up finally telling her that from now on, she would do exactly as I say, or I was prepared to end the relationship. She agreed that her behavior was unacceptable, and that she didn't want to be that way, and that she didn't know how to change. I told her I could show her how...

I studied slave training on various websites, and put into motion a mild version to try with her. She must perform certain rituals to hone her submission to me, keep a journal, and share her deepest thoughts and fears. She is disciplined when she "slips". At times she will try very hard, others she seems to lapse back into her old self. She complains and whines and gets pissed off... But if I back off, she acts like I don't love her anymore. Very confusing for someone (me) new to the "lifestyle". After a fairly long discussion, she finally admitted that she needs me to be stong, to keep her in control even if she complains or cries or gets angry. She does not want me to allow her to misbehave... She loses repect for me if I allow it...

Here is the clincher:... I have not told her that I am using BDSM/slave training principles with her. She only knows that I wish her to submit herself to me, because she is unhappy otherwise... She is happier as a whole than she has ever been in her whole life. But she has such fear of "words"... I am afraid that if she heard the term BDSM, that she would totally freak out. But she continues to prove her true nature to me... So it is that I am training a slave that doesn't know she is one...

Is this possible? What do I do now?
Profile   Post #: 1
RE: Is it possible to not know you are a slave at heart? - 10/19/2005 4:21:30 PM   
EmeraldSlave2


Posts: 3645
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		Frankly what you say worries me- you're taking some possible turn-ons and converting them into not only a day-to-day way of life that you wife "secretly" wants, but into out and out disrespect?

The fact that she agrees with you leads me to believe that there are likely other factors going on here which you haven't shared...or that she's just trying to pacify you...or that you might actually be right.

Either way- I'd treat this carefully. Someone calling me disrespectful just because they came up with some wild and crazy ideas of how they should be treated would not be met with simple agreement.

However, other than the obvious advice that YOU NEED TO SHOW HER THIS POST AND HAVE MANY DISCUSSIONS ABOUT IT...try giving her a copy of "The Submissive Wife." It's obviously not a how-to guie or how people SHOULD act, but I find many people with submissive orientations and who are married find it a great way to at least start opening up on topics of service and behavior changes.

But I will say, I'm not impressed with how you've done things so far and will be more critical than sympathetic to your situation.

(in reply to yA4me)
Profile   Post #: 2
RE: Is it possible to not know you are a slave at heart? - 10/19/2005 4:22:12 PM   
theRose4U


Posts: 3403
Joined: 8/22/2005
Status: offline 		There are similar theories that are used in vanilla (regular) life. Mostly from Promise Keepers. Man head of the household wife bows to his will etc. Honestly unless you are wanting to add bondage or other kink to the mix the label you use is irrelivant. I'm pretty sure if you walked into a church & mentioned to a promise keeper that they use slave training principles based on BSDM YOU'D BETTER RUN>>>FAST.
I fully believe that it is possible to have a slave that has no idea. I was raised in the south that all good things come through my husband, that his will is law and that his permission & guidence should be consulted in all things. While I ran as far & as fast from the principles as I could get...it DOES happen.
If it works for you guys then more power to you.

(in reply to yA4me)
Profile   Post #: 3
RE: Is it possible to not know you are a slave at heart? - 10/19/2005 4:26:58 PM   
Littlepita


Posts: 1430
Joined: 10/6/2005
Status: offline 		Your wife sounds a lot like me. I know when my Sir first brought up D/s and we decided to explore this lifestyle there were lots of words and ideas that I had problems with. Like I totally didn't like the word slave or of the thought of losing myself. I have since come to see and understand being a slave in a different light, although I will remain a sub for now. I have also really come to know that the more I lose myself in my submission the more of my true self comes to the surface. It's very freeing and makes me very happy.

So, you need to find ways that make her understand her submission. Watch words like slave because they do evoke strong emotions in some. I would also really recomend this article as well as the whole site. It was an eye opener for me into who I am and what I want. Good luck.
The Healthy Submisive

_____________________________

“I, with a deeper instinct, choose a man who compels my strength, who makes enormous demands on me, who does not doubt my courage or my toughness, who does not believe me naive or innocent, who has the courage to treat me like a woman.” – Anais Nin

(in reply to yA4me)
Profile   Post #: 4
RE: Is it possible to not know you are a slave at heart? - 10/19/2005 4:39:03 PM   
ownedjulia


Posts: 218
Joined: 10/5/2005
Status: offline 		This is difficult because you admit that a lot of details have been left out.

quote:

My wife has always described herself as a submissive child with an abusive father. This caused her to become what she calls "stong", which means that she feels that she needed to completely dominate her relationships. This made her, and everyone else, very unhappy. She calls herself as a "feminist", mostly to ward off potential villains...



I'm a feminist. I believe that women should treated equally, Should I be passed over for promotion at work because I'm a woman? NO. Should I be paid less for doing the same job as a man? NO.

I CHOOSE to give my submission to my Master. I accept the slave way of life because i adore the framework it gives me to be me.

Could she need to dominate a relationship in order to feel safe? She had an abusive father and that is going to cause her pain for the rest of her life. Tread carefully for you are treading on her past.

quote:



To make a long story short (I'm leaving out a lot of details...), her behavior nearly cost us our marriage. I have always ruled my relationships, and honestly got tired of being treated with disrespect. I ended up finally telling her that from now on, she would do exactly as I say, or I was prepared to end the relationship. She agreed that her behavior was unacceptable, and that she didn't want to be that way, and that she didn't know how to change. I told her I could show her how...


Could her behaviour have been sparked by something you have said or done?

You mention her a lot, her background, her behaviour.... What about yours?

If you are both serious about a Dom/sub relationship then you BOTH have to understand what they entails. It is NOT just about you telling her what to do.

Tread Carefully.



_____________________________

~julia
owned slave and proud of it!

(in reply to yA4me)
Profile   Post #: 5
RE: Is it possible to not know you are a slave at heart? - 10/19/2005 4:40:04 PM   
sub4hire


Posts: 6775
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		I have to agree with Emerald on this one. You really should'nt be taking the tactics you are. It will backfire on you. Whether it ends up in divorce or not will depend on how well you talk your way out of it at the time.

You need to communicate with her. Perhaps seek some professional help.

(in reply to yA4me)
Profile   Post #: 6
RE: Is it possible to not know you are a slave at heart? - 10/19/2005 5:05:40 PM   
Rommel


Posts: 8
Joined: 9/8/2005
Status: offline 		This post freaks me out. Come out of the closet my man. You're playing a game of chess with her reflection right now. Its a kin to the first curcial blunder, aside from drinking iocane powder, which is to wage a land war in Europe. You just don't act this covertly with someone you love.

(in reply to sub4hire)
Profile   Post #: 7
RE: Is it possible to not know you are a slave at heart? - 10/19/2005 5:15:05 PM   
EmeraldSlave2


Posts: 3645
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Rommel

This post freaks me out. Come out of the closet my man. You're playing a game of chess with her reflection right now. Its a kin to the first curcial blunder, aside from drinking iocane powder, which is to wage a land war in Europe. You just don't act this covertly with someone you love.

No, the first crucial blunder is never to get involved in a land war in Asia. The other is never go against a Sicilian when death is on the line.

Boy I'm REALLY proving what an anal dork I am today :)

(in reply to Rommel)
Profile   Post #: 8
RE: Is it possible to not know you are a slave at heart? - 10/19/2005 5:26:04 PM   
felineone


Posts: 92
Joined: 6/24/2004
Status: offline 		She sounds a lot like me when i was young. I too became a sort of feminist, to take control, to not let any man tell me what to do. This was mostly a protection/defensive kind of attitude. I had only known men who were not "good" who were damaging, domineering, abusive. Growing up, my only examples were of these kinds of men.
I know that she needs you to be strong, and that it is a conflict for her, to let go. it's very scary to give up the safety of controling everything. she will be looking for that weakness in character.. pushing to try to find it. I used to push to see if they would let me. they always did, and it was disapointing to me.
you don't have to speak of the S&M part of BDSM, but the M/s, or D/s might be very appealing to her.

good luck!

~feline~

(in reply to yA4me)
Profile   Post #: 9
RE: Is it possible to not know you are a slave at heart? - 10/19/2005 5:36:14 PM   
yA4me


Posts: 14
Joined: 10/17/2005
Status: offline 		"Could she need to dominate a relationship in order to feel safe? "

She has said that very same thing. But she hates it. If she is in control, then she isn't hurt if the relationship ends. With her in control, she could use threats, anger, guilt, shame, and pain to keep me... But after 10 years together, she needs to toss that crap out. If both of us want the relationship to work, then why does she need to act in a way that may threaten that? She told me that if a man can be dominated (I didn't realize this was happening to me until it was too late), she will crush their spirit until she not longer repects them. She wanted a man that would show her he would TAKE control... Imagine how scary this was for me at first! After doing some research, and finding out that there are people out there that have this need, and accept it, it changed me. And her.

"Could her behaviour have been sparked by something you have said or done?"

Yes, under her abuse, I became a pathetic worm with no penis that we both hated. Now, we like us both a lot better. When we have our nightly talk, we look back and say, why did we let this go on for so long?

But yes, I do have to treat lightly, and carefully.... But I love her, and if that is what she tells me she needs, I will do my best to provide for her. Even if I have to be careful what "terminology" I use...

(in reply to ownedjulia)
Profile   Post #: 10
RE: Is it possible to not know you are a slave at heart? - 10/19/2005 5:38:09 PM   
yA4me


Posts: 14
Joined: 10/17/2005
Status: offline 		OMG... You just summed it all up...

(in reply to felineone)
Profile   Post #: 11
RE: Is it possible to not know you are a slave at heart? - 10/19/2005 5:54:42 PM   
pastplayingames


Posts: 50
Status: offline
quote:

No, the first crucial blunder is never to get involved in a land war in Asia. The other is never go against a Sicilian when death is on the line.


HA HA!
I thought that movie was hilarious!

~Christine

(in reply to EmeraldSlave2)
Profile   Post #: 12
RE: Is it possible to not know you are a slave at heart? - 10/19/2005 6:03:56 PM   
felineone


Posts: 92
Joined: 6/24/2004
Status: offline 		smiles...
well, i was married almost 20 years... and did the same thing. It was too late for us, i couldn't get that respect back.
but, it's hasn't been nearly as long for you two, so take care, and i wish you both well!

~feline~

(in reply to yA4me)
Profile   Post #: 13
RE: Is it possible to not know you are a slave at heart? - 10/19/2005 10:25:50 PM   
Evanesce


Posts: 2325
Joined: 9/14/2005
Status: offline
quote:

She has a "hidden" interest in BDSM. She would show interest in TV shows, etc, that depict bondage scenes. I believe that she wouldn't admit her needs because it went against how she pictured herself, or how society views it. But her face as she watched... It was obvious...

My wife has always described herself as a submissive child with an abusive father. This caused her to become what she calls "stong", which means that she feels that she needed to completely dominate her relationships. This made her, and everyone else, very unhappy. She calls herself as a "feminist", mostly to ward off potential villains...

To make a long story short (I'm leaving out a lot of details...), her behavior nearly cost us our marriage. I have always ruled my relationships, and honestly got tired of being treated with disrespect. I ended up finally telling her that from now on, she would do exactly as I say, or I was prepared to end the relationship. She agreed that her behavior was unacceptable, and that she didn't want to be that way, and that she didn't know how to change. I told her I could show her how...

I studied slave training on various websites, and put into motion a mild version to try with her. She must perform certain rituals to hone her submission to me, keep a journal, and share her deepest thoughts and fears. She is disciplined when she "slips". At times she will try very hard, others she seems to lapse back into her old self. She complains and whines and gets pissed off... But if I back off, she acts like I don't love her anymore. Very confusing for someone (me) new to the "lifestyle". After a fairly long discussion, she finally admitted that she needs me to be stong, to keep her in control even if she complains or cries or gets angry. She does not want me to allow her to misbehave... She loses repect for me if I allow it...



Boy, do I ever understand THIS one! Your wife is me. Or I was your wife, many, many years ago. I also had an abusive father, and I am also a "strong" woman. But you have no idea how fragile that "strength" can sometimes be. Quite often, women like her and myself are "strong" because we're too scared not to be. If we show weakness, we will be taken advantage of, hurt, or worse. And sometimes, we have to be "strong" because our partners either cannot or will not take charge or accept responsibility for the relationship. (been there, done that, dumped his ass)

She disrespects you when she senses weakness in you. (I can almost guarantee you this is a direct reflection of how she views weakness in herself) She expects you to be strong and to keep her safe. If you let up on her, she sees it as you're giving in, and she loses faith in you. She may even feel you don't care enough about her to make her behave as you (and she) want her to behave, and the disrespect sets in.

What do you do now? I would say don't even concern yourself with giving what you do a "name." If it works, and it makes both of you happy, then go with it. You've got one very big job ahead of you, if you're really going to get her to fully submit herself to you, but if you are consistent, it can be done. What you call it doesn't much matter.

_____________________________

Denise

Give a slave what he truly needs, and he will do what you want.

"There's never a hero in a battle of ego." - Big & Rich


(in reply to yA4me)
Profile   Post #: 14
RE: Is it possible to not know you are a slave at heart? - 10/20/2005 6:03:19 AM   
EmeraldSlave2


Posts: 3645
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		Just a side reference note: This is also why so many new submissives get so frustrated and challenge their dominants early on. They haven't yet learned to trust themselves or be with a partner that really works competently in a D/s dynamic. They WANT so much to give up authority, but it takes awhile for them to really GET that this is really possible and really what they want.

And a lot of them end up realizing it's NOT what they really want, it's NOT something they are comfortable with, they need to retain some or a great measure of authority.

(in reply to EmeraldSlave2)
Profile   Post #: 15
RE: Is it possible to not know you are a slave at heart? - 10/20/2005 6:51:19 AM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline
quote:

After a fairly long discussion, she finally admitted that she needs me to be stong, to keep her in control even if she complains or cries or gets angry. She does not want me to allow her to misbehave... She loses repect for me if I allow it...


to this slave, giving up control of ones self to another does not mean it is their responsiblility to control behaviors such as complaining, crying or anger. that is something the slave must control herself, like any other adult. being someone's slave does not mean being someone's child. it does not give one license to behave badly and let Master clean up the mess.

the most successfull relationships this slave has witnessed have been between people who have trust, communication and a devotion to one another~all the secret slave training in the world won't magically make those things happen.

(in reply to yA4me)
Profile   Post #: 16
RE: Is it possible to not know you are a slave at heart? - 10/20/2005 7:22:58 AM   
imtempting


Posts: 1280
Joined: 2/11/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: EmeraldSlave2

Frankly what you say worries me- you're taking some possible turn-ons and converting them into not only a day-to-day way of life that you wife "secretly" wants, but into out and out disrespect?

The fact that she agrees with you leads me to believe that there are likely other factors going on here which you haven't shared...or that she's just trying to pacify you...or that you might actually be right.

Either way- I'd treat this carefully. Someone calling me disrespectful just because they came up with some wild and crazy ideas of how they should be treated would not be met with simple agreement.

However, other than the obvious advice that YOU NEED TO SHOW HER THIS POST AND HAVE MANY DISCUSSIONS ABOUT IT...try giving her a copy of "The Submissive Wife." It's obviously not a how-to guie or how people SHOULD act, but I find many people with submissive orientations and who are married find it a great way to at least start opening up on topics of service and behavior changes.

But I will say, I'm not impressed with how you've done things so far and will be more critical than sympathetic to your situation.


For once on these boards I wholly and truelly agree with you...

< Message edited by imtempting -- 10/20/2005 7:23:20 AM >

(in reply to EmeraldSlave2)
Profile   Post #: 17
RE: Is it possible to not know you are a slave at heart? - 10/20/2005 8:12:15 AM   
plantlady64


Posts: 755
Joined: 5/19/2005
Status: offline 		Hello Sir,

I too had a sleeping slave inside me for 41 years. Mine had been deaf, dumb and blind my whole sexual life. Much like your wife my father abused me. I, on the other hand, didn't become controlling of others I turned my control freak internally and over controlled myself since I was little.
Prior to 2/05 my Sister had found BDSM in her life in 1999. She tried everything she could think of to convince me to check out the matrix of a D/s point of view. Honestly I though she had some mental condition that left her feeling like she deserved in some twisted way to be punished.
Even then, my sleeping slave inside didn't budge an inch and I had no idea I was kinky.
For me it took a man sceneing with me for the first time to wake me up. He'd been a very hot lover so I was inclined to let him play even though I though it was weird at best. Once I was wakened I bought the lifestyle hook, line and sinker and could never even consider the best vanilla lover sexy without the power exchange I crave with my whole slave heart now.

It's not something that could be forced on me. No one's words could manipulate me into this point of view. It took the heat of being a sex object to this hot lover that made the light come on and the door not only open, but come off the hinges and be sent to the dump. Never will it close again as it no longer exists in my world.

Maybe setting up a mild scene like light bondage, nipple clamps and a few swats on her rear will help her inner submissive nature to wake up from its slumber. Get books on the subject and leave them where she'll see them. A really awesome book on being a slave is Slavecraft, if the slave not sub is more your goal I'd really recommend that one. Another good one for the psychological path into BDSM is Different Loving. It was the first one I read and the most insightful one I've seen to date. You could ask her if she'd be willing to go out in a short skirt without panties to fulfill a fantasy of your to see how you think she reacts to exhibitionism.
Overall communicating your opinion of the submissive lover you see inside her needing to be explored for the chance to make her feel more healed and whole is the first thing I'd do.
Sincerely,
sub suzanne

(in reply to yA4me)
Profile   Post #: 18
RE: Is it possible to not know you are a slave at heart? - 1/21/2006 10:43:57 PM   
subiekitty


Posts: 34
Joined: 1/15/2006
Status: offline 		my 2 cents here.

i also went a long time hiding in myself from my submissive nature. i tried to control the people and things arround me and was a misserable unhappy manipulative lying bitch because of it.

Likley as several have said she may be a closet submissive, afraid because of that abuse of her own nature because to be submissive is to be vulnerable.

There it is. One of the big secrets, why some get excited playing with it, and others fight against it, and the rest of us seek that person we can belong to. No one who hurts deeply inside wants to be hurt again. i was not abused by my father, hell i DONT EVEN KNOW MY FATHER.

But i was hurt badly by some i served and it made alot of trouble now that i found who i beleive is truley the One i am meant to belong to. It took freinds who were into BDSM to show me it was not evil and sick, then it took people accepting my curiosity and encourageing my exploration to awaken myself to my submissive nature.

For me discovering it is one of the great keys to happiness and inner peace. For her it may be too.

HOWEVER getting into D/s is so primal and so deep in the psyche you're playing with fire. The emotions run hard and hot and it is so easy to get burned. She's already been burned by her past, you don't want to scar her again. (if you do you are one sick puppy and she needs to be rescued-but i dont think youd be posting it here if that was your intent)

So you need to open up about this and FAST, but gently.

Talk to her about this explain what you saw in her, explain how you understand how scarry it can be to open up to it.

She needs to be more comfortable with you then with any other human being in her life EVER if you're going to guide her through an awakening of an inner submissive nature, if that is infact what is there.

Listen to these people trust and security are essential.

Without that how can she bear her soul open on the floor for you.
Without that how can she come to see you as the shelter for her inner self. A sub needs that shelter, when i dont have a dom to shelter me, i close off cause i cant let the world into that soft vulnerable core.

Be gentle, be firm but above all be honest!!

Be the dom who can take her into yourself emotional, hold her and shelter her that she may grow in your care.

And if you dont eventualy she will break loose and fall from your hold, and when her heart shatters on the cold stone floor, she might not be able to put it back together again.

i almost couldnt when two successive people dropped me that way.

(in reply to plantlady64)
Profile   Post #: 19
RE: Is it possible to not know you are a slave at heart? - 1/21/2006 11:30:48 PM   
doubleLeo


Posts: 50
Joined: 11/26/2004
Status: offline 		Well, its certainly not wrong to see similarities between what your gf enjoys and D/s. Cant you confront her with this?
If not, maybe she is is not ready to admit it to herself. You could help with her with that if in fact this is what it is for her.
dL

(in reply to yA4me)
Profile   Post #: 20
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