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RE: Breaking stubbornness! - 10/25/2005 4:15:41 PM

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Patience is the key here. It is smilar to pushing ones limits, you can not just go and smash your way through them that does more harm then good, you just have to push a little at a time until the limit is no longer a limit. There have been some good replies here, might I add you have to make it a pleasant experience for her. One way that might work is food, find out something that she likes, syrup, peanut butter, whipped cream, I used belgium chocolate icecream once. Coat you cock in it have her clean it with her tongue keeping her hands behind her back. keep doing this for a while she will start to associate her mouth and your cock with fun.......

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RE: Breaking stubbornness! - 10/25/2005 4:36:05 PM

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Master Joseph

quote:

and she HATES having my cum in her mouth/swallowing and gets really anxious/nervous when she knows it's coming. [/quote

I have encountered reluctance of submissives at performing oral sex and I might offer a suggestion. Compromise until she has overcome her aversion to your cumming in her mouth. You may find that she is finding the whole experience distasteful as a result of her fear of your cumming in her mouth. Remove that element and see if she doesn't learn to enjoy bringing you to the point of cumming and then you withdraw from her mouth. Assure her you will not fail to withdraw before cumming. If this is in fact the problem, she will eventually enjoy pleasing you orally. Once she has relaxed and become comfortable with that, then slowly bring her back to seeing the act to it's end. She may be a little more open to the idea once she has learned to enjoy it herself.

(in reply to MasterJoeseph)

RE: Breaking stubbornness! - 10/25/2005 5:46:33 PM

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Emerald, i'm not sure i understand your point. i don't think it was ever mentioned about Joseph not telling his slave that he was not happy with her. of course he should tell her and then they should work on it. my understanding of this thread was the question of how .. not if. and i also don't recall anyone suggesting that he be "held captive" to his sub's emotions. he being aware and sensitive to her emotions can only make him a better dominant and get him more desireable results.

humbly,
sunshine

(in reply to EmeraldSlave2)

RE: Breaking stubbornness! - 10/25/2005 5:47:34 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: angelic
i may have missed something here, but if He's punished her... she already knows he wasn't happy. In my humble opinion, punishment has only made her feel more afraid, more insecure, more inadequate and less willing.

Angelic, not to be rude, but did you read my posts?

The very first part of my first post discusses using sweet tactics and not sour ones.

The second post said "Well I agree with positive reinforcement, but if she's not obeying properly, she needs to be told so."

I didn't say he should punish her, I said he should TELL her. And I also reiterated my agreement that positive reinforcement is the way to go.

(in reply to angelic)

RE: Breaking stubbornness! - 10/25/2005 5:52:12 PM

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Joseph, there have been some very creative suggestions as to how to make the actual act less offensive to your sub. My favourite - make sure you're clean. In my vanilla days, I had had several bfs who were unfortunately unaware that an unwashed genital/anal area stinks. Instant turn off. It seems that many males fail in this very important show of consideration. Wiping doesn't clean away the bacteria that makes the privates offensive to the olfactories. Now that I'm a practicing Dominant, I don't have to ask for them to clean, I get to demand it. (And, well, blowjobs are a non-issue, ya know?)

The better responses acknowledged a need to discuss your girl's aversion with her. She may have some very powerfully compelling reasons to desire to avoid this. She may either simply be put off by the act, by the smell and/or unpleasant effects, or she may have experienced a trauma caused by the act. Compassion for her feelings will be the most responsible stance to take. She will likely respect and trust you all the more that you are willing to consider her as if she were actually a human being, and not simply your "property." Hear her out and try to work a reasonable compromise. Patience and understanding will get you farther than force. Weaning her of her aversion will put you both on more solid ground than breaking her of it.

The fact that you were concerned enough about her and your relationship clearly evidence that you do, indeed, have compassion that will serve you well in your relationship with your girl.

Good luck.

RAH

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RE: Breaking stubbornness! - 10/25/2005 7:19:07 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: EmeraldSlave2

quote:

ORIGINAL: angelic
i may have missed something here, but if He's punished her... she already knows he wasn't happy. In my humble opinion, punishment has only made her feel more afraid, more insecure, more inadequate and less willing.

Angelic, not to be rude, but did you read my posts?

The very first part of my first post discusses using sweet tactics and not sour ones.

The second post said "Well I agree with positive reinforcement, but if she's not obeying properly, she needs to be told so."

I didn't say he should punish her, I said he should TELL her. And I also reiterated my agreement that positive reinforcement is the way to go.

EmeraldSlave.. i didn't take anything you said as being rude.. i apologize if i sounded as such to you. i was merely saying that by being punished, she is well aware that He is unhappy with her and in my opinion, will not help. It will only make it more and more less desireable to her. Regardless of how much she wants to please him, her fear or lack of self-esteem comes to the forefront and prevents her from doing what she wants most, to please Him.

i may not be reading enough into the thread, but it sounded very much like she pleases Him in every way but this one... and when she hesitates (out of fear of not doing it 'right' or lack of self-esteem)... she hesitates... she's punished (she KNOWS He's unhappy with her behaviour at that point).

"Well I agree with positive reinforcement, but if she's not obeying properly, she needs to be told so."

Nothing in the thread that i saw indicated she was not properly obeying... this is just a source of fear for her and in my opinion, should be approached in that way.

just my opinion

< Message edited by angelic -- 10/25/2005 7:23:50 PM >

(in reply to EmeraldSlave2)

RE: Breaking stubbornness! - 10/25/2005 10:09:23 PM

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Let me switch to a different viewpoint for a minute. Has she told you WHY she is so adverse to giving blowjobs? The real reason?

Let me throw out a couple of suggestions that might help.

1.) Be sure that you are clean and don't have any really bad B.O. when you ask her to do this. At least at first this could be a real turn-off for her.

2.) Consider doing some subtle changes in your diet for awhile. Leave out the onions and garlic and add more fruits. This can honestly change the flavor of your semen somewhat and might make it less offensive.

3.) Make a trip to the local 'toy store' and check out the flavored jells specifically made for this. There are many flavors available that might help make this more 'palatable' to her. Use of these could be a reward for good practice sessions.

4.) Have her suck on a mentholyptus cough drop for a couple of minutes before starting on you. She should coat the inside of her mouth and keep the rest in her cheek. The menthol will help her with the flavor problem and if she wets you good and then goes up and down very slowly the 'hot/cold' sensations for you will be great.

5.) Don't cum in her mouth every time she gives you oral. Sit and watch TV and have her give you some nice slow oral just as a pleasure/relaxer. It doesn't have to be foreplay or done to completion. Just get her used to doing this to give you pleasure. Then, occasionally, just tell her you're going to cum and make her complete the job. My current Sub never liked giving oral before but she found that 'playing at it' and doing it to pleasure me even when I told her I didn't want to cum, was a lot of fun. Now it's her favorite thing and she'll be on her knees if I just wink at her.

Good luck. Be patient and try to work WITH her on this. It's obvious that you can force her to pleasure you this way if you need too so now see if you can help her come to enjoy it.

BTW, I also find that positive reinforcement and rewards work much better than punishment most of the time, (unless of course she WANTS to be punished and is looking for an excuse............)

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RE: Breaking stubbornness! - 10/26/2005 12:42:42 AM

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quote:

I found a wonderful slave about 5-6 months ago and I adore her dearly. she is so eager to please and serve me...except in one little area. Blowjobs. she hates them. I want her to be to the point where I don't have to demand she does this act. I want her to want to do it willingly...to look forward to it. When she hesitates I punish her,

Tell me how and why you punish her in other situations and how she reacts and I'll answer your question (as I see it). Provide specifics please.

Bare with me please community on this one (without ripping me a new one in the meantime).

D (owner of j).

< Message edited by Wolfie648 -- 10/26/2005 12:44:42 AM >

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RE: Breaking stubbornness! - 10/26/2005 11:29:19 AM

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i used to have an aversion to giving blow jobs. I hated it. My mouth got tired, it hurt, i have a senstive gag reflex, and i never liked the taste of cum. That being said, when i met my current Dom, its what he wanted. He was very very patient with me. First it would be a hand job followed by some sucking. Then each time he would increase the time i spent actually sucking. He would heap on much praise about how good it felt, how much i was improving until it got to a point where i actually wanted to do it. It made him happy. Then we worked on the cum swallowing. You may have to look at your diet here as well because some things you eat can make cum taste just nasty. Drink lots of water and pineapple juice is supposed to sweeten you up. Currently we are working towards the throat fucking. Its not easy. I gag alot but again, with much praise and encouragement on his part, i am getting much better at it. At least i can tolerate it better. One thing i would do is explain to her how much you enjoy it. How much it pleases you when she does it. And as everyone else has said, stop punishing her for it, it sounds like even though she hates it, she is still trying. Hesitation isn't a bad thing. Just because she is a slave doesn't mean she doesn't have feelings. Perhaps as the dom you need to take her feelings about this into consideration. Sorry if this was a bit graphic, but am trying to help.

(in reply to WickedKev)

RE: Breaking stubbornness! - 10/26/2005 12:05:05 PM

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Hello All,
OK I'm telling on myself again, but if it helps so be it then.
I can't swallow cum. I for a fluid monogamous partner will keep a trash can right next to us as everytime I just hurl. Most of my full lovers in my life decided on their own to just not cum in my mouth.
I of course had one of my boyfriends was very turned on by it so we did it often regardless of my gagging. It made him hotter as he liked the fact I was so submissive to his pleasures. (And we were vanilla, or so we thought)

My revulsion does not come from something happening to me. It comes from seeing the sperm magnified in science class. Seeing them as alive things just swimming everywhere just plain gives me the willies on such a deep level no matter how hard I've tried or continue to try I just can't convince my mind it's OK.
It actually pisses me off I can't seem to change my thoughts on this as I think it makes me a wuss. My version just isn't so sexy to me if you catch the drift. I'd love to not be so repulsed.
Maybe this girl has some strange complex about it like I do.

I think communication & questioning why may help if she'll open up to you.
I agree with what's been said before. If you tell her exactly when you're going to cum every time she won't be nervious the whole time she's giving head, just right when you tell her.
If you don't surprize her and cum without telling her she should be able to trust you enough to have fun with that foreplay aspect at least.

I also'd recommend maybe my soultion I use will help if you just insist she has to take it. If she proves she's at least as willing to let you cum in her mouth anyway, gags or pukes in a trash can, but does take it for you, that should at least be enough to prove her devotion to you.

I feel as long as she's giving her all, even if it's not your ideal situation you have to give her credit for trying with all her heart to go against herself to please you.
Sincerely,
sub suzanne

(in reply to MasterJoeseph)

RE: Breaking stubbornness! - 10/26/2005 12:10:00 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: plantlady64
My revulsion does not come from something happening to me. It comes from seeing the sperm magnified in science class. Seeing them as alive things just swimming everywhere just plain gives me the willies on such a deep level no matter how hard I've tried or continue to try I just can't convince my mind it's OK.

sub suzanne

Awe Suzanne! didnt you ever get thirsty out on the Farm and grab a couple handfulls of water from the Trough? You outta see that in a microscope! .........
Q

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RE: Breaking stubbornness! - 10/26/2005 12:34:44 PM

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quote:

Awe Suzanne! didnt you ever get thirsty out on the Farm and grab a couple handfulls of water from the Trough? You outta see that in a microscope! .........

Hello My Dear Quivver,
Actually yes, I do know what's in it, and no way did I drink it or from the lakes or ponds either. Now I did drink from the well, but I worried about getting giradia all the time.

What can I say, I'm very bacteria and germ conscious too.

Sincerley,
sub suzanne

(in reply to Quivver)

RE: Breaking stubbornness! - 10/26/2005 10:42:56 PM

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I'm going to go in a different direction here, because I can definitely sympathize with this girl.

It seems to me that she's not being "stubborn" at all. She simply has a complete and total aversion to blowjobs, for reasons she probably doesn't even fully understand. I have those aversions too (along with a VERY small mouth and TMJ issues which makes blowjobs on all but the tiniest of penises a painful experience for me). For this reason, and a few others, my Master doesn't even require that I give Him blowjobs at all.

I would question the OP if a blowjob is really such an important part of your D/s, or if there are other things she could do that would be equally pleasurable to you, and not cause her anxiety and/or pain in the process. With the enormous variety of pleasures at our disposal, how much weight can a blowjob really deserve?

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Give a slave what he truly needs, and he will do what you want.

"There's never a hero in a battle of ego." - Big & Rich

(in reply to MasterJoeseph)

RE: Breaking stubbornness! - 10/26/2005 11:44:12 PM

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"she is so eager to serve and please me"... 'she hesitates and i punish'.
I am not sure I would go this route, how can someone "Punish someone else for something they....Can not nor will do for many reasons unmentioned. She Might have some good reasons as to why she has these fears. Something in her past might have caused her to have these feelings. I too beleive in Postitive Reinforcements. Sit down and talk with her and her You. Be open about all things. Open Communication is a great learning tool. If She still has these fears and is Against giving What You wish. Well You Might not want to hear this next part but...you might have to comprisemise. Some Woman get Terrifed in thier past...this is something they can not control. Some have been raped or abused, Only time can be a Great tool to learn and As she learns She will become more willing to try new ways to exploring that side. I shall keep coming back to this thread as I find this interesting. Best of luck.....

~stormie~

PS: what I have said might not agree with many others, but W/we A/all come to this Lifestlye With Different Views and Idea's. W/we don't Always Have Like What other's Say...but W/we do have to Agree to Disagree on somethings. Just my Other two "cents" worth..for what that is worth....

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RE: Breaking stubbornness! - 10/27/2005 5:47:16 PM

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I am new and this is my first posting but I think as a sub/slave that liking something or not liking something isn't what is important its my Masters pleasure...So she needs to realize its not about her and what she likes its about what her Master wants.....

(in reply to Sartoris32801)

RE: Breaking stubbornness! - 10/27/2005 7:00:46 PM

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You shoulf ask her why she hates it so much. Myabe she had a bad experience in the past. I know a Dom (thank God not mine) who will not give oral because of a bad expereince. Maybe this falls into the dsame catgory? Communitation is always very important.

littleone

Just my thoughts

(in reply to domtimothy46176)

RE: Breaking stubbornness! - 10/28/2005 8:06:47 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: EmeraldSlave2
There's a LOT of ways to modify behavior rather than punishment. The old saying "you get more with honey than vinegar" would greatly apply here.

For what is generally meant when the term "training" is used this is undoubtedly true. Of course most of that is not really training but rather simple education.

For some types of training punishment is in fact the only effective method. For reference, I discuss this in much more detail at the link below:

"Punishment, Correction and Conditioning in the Shaping of Human Tools"

quote:

ORIGINAL: EmeraldSlave2
In the end, unless you want her to really like it, how she FEELS about it shouldn't matter. She's agreed to obey you including the area of oral sex. Simple repetition and desensitization might be enough to let her own issues fall away.

This I agree with.

(in reply to EmeraldSlave2)

RE: Breaking stubbornness! - 10/28/2005 8:25:35 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: denimknight
It's always been amusing to me that when it comes to acts such as oral or anal sex the only dominants who are flabbergasted that a submissive or slave balks at having a cock shoved into places that were not explicitly designed to have a cock shoved down them.

I know of a number of dominants, male and female, who don't tolerate much complaining about oral or anal penetration who absolutely have experienced those acts on the "recieving" end.

quote:

ORIGINAL: denimknight
Point here is that giving a blow job (to say nothing of deep throating) is by no means an easy thing to do. It takes practice just to get to a point where it is tolerable for many people.

I suppose this might be true. The sample I have from my own experience is rather limited and self selected. By far and away many of the peopel I have spoken to felt that this act was at least tolerable... I have never spoken personally to anyone who felt it was "intolerable".

quote:

ORIGINAL: denimknight
Lastly (and this may be a no brainier but I'll mention it anyway) make sure you have washed your groin thoroughly before you expect her to put your cock in her mouth. Aside from making the process far less unpleasant for her (and thus far more likely that she will engage in the act) it's also just the polite thing to do really.

I suppose if one is working with a person who finds this action intolerable this might help... it is not something that I would personally allow to become a "rule". Don;t get me wrong, I am a clean person... but I am not so worried about a little sweat that I feel I have to be just from the shower clean the moment she puts her mouth on me.

It is common, for instance, for both myself and the other dominants I knwo to make use of our property when we get back from work. That would mean I am a full workday away from my morning shower - she'll just have to live with that :)

(in reply to denimknight)

RE: Breaking stubbornness! - 10/28/2005 9:25:02 AM

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i don't really have any suggestions ~ i really like all i've read so far but from my perspective in being new to this myself, it sounds like she's not really being stubborn about it. i know that i have some hang ups when it comes to blow jobs but it's more in regards to deep throating (i gag), or having cum in my mouth and especially swallowing. however, Master knows this. i actually love giving them but hate the end part. is it something i'll be stubborn on and NOT EVER do? no ... but as Master has told me, it's something we'll work towards and maybe it's just because He knows how i feel and how He has responded to that ... i'm completely fine with it happening at some point just not 'today'. He so far has an amazing amount of patience with me but eventually i know i'll do it because it's what He wants.

in anything, if i hesitate, i tell Him why though usually already knows. will He 'punish' me for hesitating? no. but He'll still make me do it in the end <smile>.

and in response to IronBear's post about bourbon helping as far as swallowing ~ i have swallowed once but that was after many shots (an old friend was in town) and was actually about a year ago <smiling>. but i highly doubt Master would go for me doing shots just so i could swallow...nice thought tho. maybe i'll suggest that next weekend <grin>

~ r ~

(in reply to Soulhuntre)

RE: Breaking stubbornness! - 10/28/2005 12:29:27 PM

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I found Emeralds first post the best one in my opinion. She brings the issue to its core. "Obedience." If a slave has to like everything they do or they don’t do it or don’t do it well, then I think the issue is obedience. There was lots of great advice on how to help get the slave over the aversion to blow jobs but that’s not the issue here. (Again in my opinion).

We have a Master that gave a simple instruction to his slave. The slave doesn’t like the act, for whatever reason, so the slave resists. Emerald suggests a hand signal that the slave understands. And then she says to discuss what part of the hand signal was not understood if the slave hesitates. Emerald, I thought that advice was highly valuable and I will use it myself as a means of slave communication and obedience training.

Here is why I think the advice was so good. Because I think the issue is far less about the blow job than it is about the obedience. It also offered a solution directed towards the obedience that wasn’t direct punishment.

Obviously, it may not hurt to include a BJ training program that helps your slave get through her anxiety of the deed. I believe a good Master always seeks to train areas of problems so that it minimizes the slave’s anxiety. But, obedience is paramount. (IMHO).

As a Master, I think we must have certain levels of understanding and tolerance. But we have an obligation to give consistant direction that our slaves can depend upon. As a slave, it would seem to me that they should expect to come to terms with the aversion because it is what Master requires.

All that being said, I have observed on this site that there are varying levels of Masters/Doms and slave/subs. What works for one may not work for the other. My oppinoins wont mesh with every Master. Some slaves may agree or disagree with me. Its because we are not all the same and we have differant wants and needs.

TearCollector

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