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Obama leaving Trinity church - 5/31/2008 4:39:33 PM   
cyberdude611


Posts: 2596
Joined: 5/7/2006
Status: offline 		Can anyone say, "calculated?"

Just another typical politician......

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080531/ap_on_el_pr/obama
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RE: Obama leaving Trinity church - 5/31/2008 4:43:15 PM   
Alumbrado


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Status: offline 		Definitely starting to look that way

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RE: Obama leaving Trinity church - 5/31/2008 4:47:10 PM   
snappykappy


Posts: 616
Joined: 3/5/2005
Status: offline 		but does not the politics of this country want separation of state and church

then if they do they should not go into churches and campaign and make it up front that not religious leader speaks for me and i do not want their endorsement whatsoever

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RE: Obama leaving Trinity church - 5/31/2008 4:50:05 PM   
celticlord2112


Posts: 5732
Status: offline 		Calculated or not to me is irrelevant.

More telling against Obama is again he finds himself reacting to events rather than anticipating them.  As with the DNC's decision on the Florida delegation, by waiting so long to take the step that should have been seen as inevitable, what could have been protrayed as a triumph of principle over politics winds up with the exact opposite appearance.

Obama makes a great speech but hesitates every time the speech has to be backed with action.  That is not being Presidential, no matter how you look at it.


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RE: Obama leaving Trinity church - 5/31/2008 6:39:58 PM   
thornhappy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611

Can anyone say, "calculated?"

Just another typical politician......

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080531/ap_on_el_pr/obama

Kind of a "damned if you do and damned if you don't" situation.  If he didn't leave, people would rag him for staying.  If he leaves, then it's politically motivated.

Like the republicans who say if the democrats are so anti-war, then they should de-fund it.  I have absolutely no doubt that a huge hue and cry would result, declaring that the democrats were "anti-troops".

thornhappy

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RE: Obama leaving Trinity church - 5/31/2008 6:45:44 PM   
Padriag


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Status: offline 		Personally I think it'd be far more interesting if Obama became a Mormon fundamentalist...

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RE: Obama leaving Trinity church - 5/31/2008 6:48:30 PM   
celticlord2112


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quote:

Kind of a "damned if you do and damned if you don't" situation. If he didn't leave, people would rag him for staying. If he leaves, then it's politically motivated.

That's exactly what it is--one he could have avoided by making a hard decision  long ago.

If he had claimed not to have heard the sermons Wright was roasted over, but upon seeing them on youtube, et cetera, had withdrawn from the church immediately, rejecting the church's divisive antics outright, this issue would be off the radar by now.  Now, anything he does is fodder come the fall.


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RE: Obama leaving Trinity church - 5/31/2008 6:59:23 PM   
dcnovice


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Status: offline 		As someone who's been a churchgoer for much of my life, and who knows that the sermons are just a sliver of what binds one to a faith community, I'm sorry that a handful of soundbites have come to define everyone's perception of Trinity and Obama's relationship with it.

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No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

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RE: Obama leaving Trinity church - 5/31/2008 7:18:35 PM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline 		        It's not just a calculation, Cyber, it is a 180 degree flip-flop from what he was proclaiming as a core value just a few months ago.

      Barry has already lost most chance at my vote (unless I'm throwing a protest at McCain's VP choice), now he just keeps losing what respect I still had for him.

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RE: Obama leaving Trinity church - 5/31/2008 7:35:38 PM   
cyberdude611


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Status: offline 		Obama is trying to walk a thin line.... He's trying to prove to white independent voters that he doesnt agree with the rhetoric in that church while also trying not to upset the black community that does. In the end he could end up upsetting both groups. So this could backfire.

He's become the typical politician. And he's already being controlled by the men behind the curtain.

< Message edited by cyberdude611 -- 5/31/2008 7:37:53 PM >

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RE: Obama leaving Trinity church - 5/31/2008 9:15:50 PM   
TheHeretic


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From: California, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

the sermons are just a sliver of what binds one to a faith community,


          Forget the slices, and slivers of soundbites, DC.  The Church is not a building, or an individual preacher, or the Board of Deacons (whatever).  The Church is the congregation, the believers, the butts in the pews.  The church Obama chose to be a member of for 20 odd years, where I assume he sent his ___'s to Sunday School, came to a roar of "Amen" when the preacher hit the hate notes.

       Another thing to consider is how such a perceived repudiation of his faith for political expediency might be taken by those ME leaders he wants to talk to.  A clear signal that this is a man without any sort of spine, perhaps?

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That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


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RE: Obama leaving Trinity church - 6/1/2008 9:38:26 AM   
dcnovice


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quote:

The Church is the congregation, the believers, the butts in the pews.


I totally agree. That's why I've been sad that the whole controversy has focused on Wright, when a church is actually a collection of diverse people with often differing views.

quote:

The church Obama chose to be a member of for 20 odd years, where I assume he sent his ___'s to Sunday School, came to a roar of "Amen" when the preacher hit the hate notes.


Do we know for sure that they really roared with approval of his literal words? Or did they roll their eyes and think, "There he goes again"? Or did they set Wright's fulminations in the long context of tough talk from prophets, such as Amos telling people that God despises their rituals or Hosea (I think) comparing the people of Israel to a faithless whore or Jesus saying to chop off your hand if it leads you into sin? Or did they, as I often have, focus on the parts of community life that sustained them and cope with the rest? Or some combination of all these possibilities?

< Message edited by dcnovice -- 6/1/2008 9:39:10 AM >

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No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

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RE: Obama leaving Trinity church - 6/1/2008 10:31:55 AM   
dcnovice


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Joined: 8/2/2006
Status: offline 		Food for thought: Is Jeremiah (W)right? offers my own minister's perspective.

He sees Wright, not uncritically, through the lenses of (a) the prophetic tradition of hard sayings and (b) church's being the only place where African Americans could voice their anger at the oppression that was their daily bread.

< Message edited by dcnovice -- 6/1/2008 10:56:55 AM >

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

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RE: Obama leaving Trinity church - 6/1/2008 10:58:08 AM   
Alumbrado


Posts: 5560
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quote:

And I’m wondering if this isn’t one of those moments in American public discourse when our point of view is especially shaped by race and by culture, by our history and our experiences



Ya Thiiiink???


quote:


But let’s be clear, Jeremiah Wright is no homophobe or AIDs avoider.  In the 1980s, Trinity Church was treating black folks and gay folks with HIV, long before Ronald Reagan ever mentioned the word AIDs out loud, in public.  Wright has been vilified for saying that God damns America.  But he is not the first Jeremiah to be so scorned.  Wright’s namesake, the Biblical prophet, Jeremiah, spent his career calling the nation of Israel to account to God, asking his people to fulfill their covenant to God, their promise of justice and righteousness and peace.  And when they fulfilled that, then he said God would love them.  And when they broke that covenant, Jeremiah told them that God would condemn them, would damn them.  This kind of behavior was no less welcomed then than it is now.  For his efforts, Jeremiah got thrown in the stockade.  But Wright’s comments stand firmly in that prophetic tradition.  Did you know – I just learned this recently – that when Dr. King died, he was scheduled to preach the very next Sunday and the title of that never-preached sermon was this:  “Why America May Go to Hell.”


Amen.




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RE: Obama leaving Trinity church - 6/1/2008 11:12:11 AM   
dcnovice


Posts: 37282
Joined: 8/2/2006
Status: offline 		I'm really surprised this thread wound up in RS. It seems largely to be a serious discussion of a serious topic.

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

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RE: Obama leaving Trinity church - 6/1/2008 12:51:55 PM   
Alumbrado


Posts: 5560
Status: offline 		Sadly, I'm not surprised at all....

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RE: Obama leaving Trinity church - 6/1/2008 1:29:30 PM   
MistressK1964


Posts: 1050
Joined: 2/19/2007
Status: offline 		Its about time. Obama should have left along time ago. Sad thing is no matter what, he may win the nomination. SIGHS.

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RE: Obama leaving Trinity church - 6/1/2008 4:46:29 PM   
dcnovice


Posts: 37282
Joined: 8/2/2006
Status: offline 		I was thinking about the Wright stuff this afternoon, and I wonder if his real sin wasn't pointing to the elephant in the American living room--the still festering scars of racism.

As a white American, part of me cherishes the thought that our racial issues were sorted out decades, that good triumphed over evil, that we now have liberty and justice for all. Then someone like Wright comes along, and his comments reveal that things aren't that tidy. Suddenly, I find myself remembering that there are people alive today who had to ride on the back of the bus. I recall the African-American man who asked me to hail him a cab because none would stop for him. I note that one of our own CM posters, has twice wished aloud for a new James Earl Ray to finish off Obama. Perhaps what really irks us about Wright is not the stray boneheaded comments but the mirror he's held up to us.

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

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RE: Obama leaving Trinity church - 6/1/2008 5:08:54 PM   
Alumbrado


Posts: 5560
Status: offline 		If Wright didn't exist, Obama's opponents would have had to create someone else to spin fabricated scandals about.

I notice that no one is calling for actual members of Father Phleger's denomination, like Ted Kennedy,  to resign over what he said.

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RE: Obama leaving Trinity church - 6/1/2008 9:05:24 PM   
atursvcMaam


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

If Wright didn't exist, Obama's opponents would have had to create someone else to spin fabricated scandals about.

I notice that no one is calling for actual members of Father Phleger's denomination, like Ted Kennedy,  to resign over what he said.


     If one ignores, excuses, or pays no attention to the words that are seeming to get people riled (imho, rightly, but that is another issue)  Whether through public pressure, political expedience, or a lust to hold a high public office, or some brilliant epiphany,  Mr. Obama is willing to turn his back on, and deny his pastor for 20 years, his new pastor for which he had glowing words,  and his church. 
     I might not agree with, but would respect, an ability to stand strongly with his convictions.  The thought of a "vast right wing conspiracy" comes to mind.  i thought, and still think that was one of the most ridiculous statements ever made, but it did demonstrate a courage of conviction. 
        What i see, and fear of Mr. Obama is, if pressured while in office by the forces he will encounter, how long will it take him to decide to turn his back on his country?  He seemed to have kind words for Wright, and for the new pastor Moore (?) i don't hold him responsible or accountable for what was said, but how ready he was to dismiss them.  
          He did not seem to have kind words for us (to paraphrase) red-necked, gun toting, bible loving, military loving Americans. 
          Can anyone give me anything (and i am serious here) that would inspire confidence in the character of Mr, Obama, or anything that he believes in that he won't turn his back on under pressure or through  expedience?


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live hard, die young and leave a good looking corpse when you die.
Love ya, but, when the zombies start chasing us, i am tripping you.
The glass is always full, the question is, "with what?"

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