RE: Why, in the Holy living Mother of God FUCK is this a continuing dilemma??????

RE: Why, in the Holy living Mother of God FUCK is this a continuing dilemma?????? (Full Version)

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Griswold -> RE: Why, in the Holy living Mother of God FUCK is this a continuing dilemma?????? (6/10/2008 8:48:42 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou quote: I disagree with you there - marriage is a contract between two individuals (or bears), and it has been possible to get married outside of the religious context for a while now (isn't that what JoP are for?).

MadRabbit -> RE: Why, in the Holy living Mother of God FUCK is this a continuing dilemma?????? (6/10/2008 8:53:00 PM)
-FR- As someone who has a few friends who are adamantly opposed to gay marriage, all I can say is they do so from a position of conservative values and do so, because they think it's morally wrong and the destruction of an institution they hold to be sacred. Even though I don't agree with their opinions and find all of them to have very ignorant and misinformed opinions of homosexuals, they are doing what they think is right. And... I just gotta respect that.

Vendaval -> RE: Why, in the Holy living Mother of God FUCK is this a continuing dilemma?????? (6/10/2008 8:57:33 PM)
Gay marriage is still an issue in the US due to our Puritan ethos and convenience of using it as a distraction in serious political discussions. This is an election year, be prepared for the controversy to become even more intense.

slvemike4u -> RE: Why, in the Holy living Mother of God FUCK is this a continuing dilemma?????? (6/10/2008 8:57:34 PM)
Which comic used to say "they" have the right to be has miserable has the rest of us".....just saying to want somthing is not the same has having it....

Alumbrado -> RE: Why, in the Holy living Mother of God FUCK is this a continuing dilemma?????? (6/10/2008 9:03:39 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MadRabbit -FR- As someone who has a few friends who are adamantly opposed to gay marriage, all I can say is they do so from a position of conservative values and do so, because they think it's morally wrong and the destruction of an institution they hold to be sacred. Even though I don't agree with their opinions and find all of them to have very ignorant and misinformed opinions of homosexuals, they are doing what they think is right. And... I just gotta respect that. Hmmm... I'm old enough to have heard the same 'sacred' arguments against miscegenation...didn't make me respect them at all. Do the words 'marriage license' even appear in the Bible? Or are they revisions, like 'Popes' and 'mega-churches' and 'mercedes benz'?

Hippiekinkster -> RE: Why, in the Holy living Mother of God FUCK is this a continuing dilemma?????? (6/10/2008 9:16:08 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Aynne I love my neighbors to the North...[:D] quote: ORIGINAL: beargonewild quote: ORIGINAL: Aynne because idiots believe if we extend the same rights to homosexuals all of the "straight" marriages will end, and the apocolypse will come? Seriously, who knows. Mass collective ignorance is my guess. And the irony is heterosexual marraiges in Canada haven't suffered since we legalized same sex marraiges 5 years ago! snort So do I. I wish one of them would adopt me. I bring a lot to the table. I have hair, my own teeth (mostly), a prescription for testosterone and Viagra, a pretty cool car, and an intimate knowledge of vegetables and fruits.

MadRabbit -> RE: Why, in the Holy living Mother of God FUCK is this a continuing dilemma?????? (6/10/2008 9:18:53 PM)
It's not an argument based on the Bible or Christian values, but rather American values. Ironically, American values are somewhat synonymous with Christian values, but that's not the point. They feel that marriage is an American institution and a part of the "traditional values" that this country was founded on and are part of American culture. I didn't say I respect the argument or the viewpoints, but respect the fact they are doing what they think is right. Which war in history had a side that declared themselves to be the "wrong" ones or the "evil" ones or did both sides think themselves to be "righteous"? But then again...I have this annoying knack for seeing both sides of an argument most of the time. Edited to Add : To answer the question of why the fuck this is an issue, beleive it or not, a lot of people don't share the vision of male-male and female-female couples walking down the streets, holding hands, and kissing in public. Just thought I would throw in something a little different amongst the dog pile this time.

slaveboyforyou -> RE: Why, in the Holy living Mother of God FUCK is this a continuing dilemma?????? (6/10/2008 9:29:18 PM)
quote: It's not an argument based on the Bible or Christian values, but rather American values. Ironically, American values are somewhat synonymous with Christian values, but that's not the point. No there not. Values is a buzzword used by people to promote all sorts of whacky shit. It's bullshit. It's make believe. quote: They feel that marriage is an American institution and a part of the "traditional values" that this country was founded on and are part of American culture. Then they are morons, and their views are unworthy of respect. quote: I didn't say I respect the argument or the viewpoints, but respect the fact they are doing what they think is right. Which war in history had a side that declared themselves to be the "wrong" ones or the "evil" ones or did both sides think themselves to be "righteous"? But then again...I have this annoying knack for seeing both sides of an argument most of the time. Edited to Add : To answer the question of why the fuck this is an issue, beleive it or not, a lot of people don't share the vision of male-male and female-female couples walking down the streets, holding hands, and kissing in public. So do you respect neo-Nazis because they think what they are doing is right? How about Charles Manson? A lot of people think interacial dating is wrong, do you respect them? Do you see both sides of the issues on any of these?

Icarys -> RE: Why, in the Holy living Mother of God FUCK is this a continuing dilemma?????? (6/10/2008 9:44:34 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MadRabbit It's not an argument based on the Bible or Christian values, but rather American values. Ironically, American values are somewhat synonymous with Christian values, but that's not the point. They feel that marriage is an American institution and a part of the "traditional values" that this country was founded on and are part of American culture. I didn't say I respect the argument or the viewpoints, but respect the fact they are doing what they think is right. Which war in history had a side that declared themselves to be the "wrong" ones or the "evil" ones or did both sides think themselves to be "righteous"? But then again...I have this annoying knack for seeing both sides of an argument most of the time. Edited to Add : To answer the question of why the fuck this is an issue, beleive it or not, a lot of people don't share the vision of male-male and female-female couples walking down the streets, holding hands, and kissing in public. Just thought I would throw in something a little different amongst the dog pile this time. Religion is what drives this..where do you think the idea that two men together is wrong came from?the American values as i believe were drawn mostly from religion.this is one of them.

Archer -> RE: Why, in the Holy living Mother of God FUCK is this a continuing dilemma?????? (6/10/2008 9:56:28 PM)
I once floated an idea about how cities should protest the no gay marriage thing. Issue no marriage licenses at all. Sorry unless and until we can issue them to gay couples we're just not going to issue them at all. Now lets see how many of the christian rightare going to deal with their daughters not being able to get legally married, LOL.

Griswold -> RE: Why, in the Holy living Mother of God FUCK is this a continuing dilemma?????? (6/10/2008 9:57:22 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MadRabbit -FR- As someone who has a few friends who are adamantly opposed to gay marriage, all I can say is they do so from a position of conservative values and do so, because they think it's morally wrong and the destruction of an institution they hold to be sacred. Even though I don't agree with their opinions and find all of them to have very ignorant and misinformed opinions of homosexuals, they are doing what they think is right. And... *I just gotta respect* that.** Please...no offense meant but....why? How? How can you respect someones opinion who says that the Universe revolves around the Earth, when you yourself can see through your own telescope....that clearly, the Earth is just a speck, and it meanders as a magnificent part of an incredible package? When every bit of logic and understanding tells you, in volumes...the world is wrong...and regardless of how often they express their opinion....it can't change the facts, that no matter how markedly the powers that be inform the world they're right....it just can't be. I don't accept that, I refuse to accept that....and I'll be (edited...trying to cool my jets) if I'll ever respect that.

MadRabbit -> RE: Why, in the Holy living Mother of God FUCK is this a continuing dilemma?????? (6/10/2008 10:11:14 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou So do you respect neo-Nazis because they think what they are doing is right? How about Charles Manson? A lot of people think interacial dating is wrong, do you respect them? Do you see both sides of the issues on any of these? I am gonna respond to this part of the post, because it's the one part with a valid argument that goes beyond sticking your fingers in your ears and going "It's stupid pffffffttt." I beleive people have to decide for themselves what they think is right or wrong in this world and then act in accordance with those values. The problem with taking a determinalist stance in a nihilistic world is the fact that people are going to choose values that I am going to completely disagree with, think are horribly wrong, and cannot tolerate to the point that I am going to stop them. However, just because my values don't conicide with theirs and I am going to have to oppose them and try and change them doesn't mean I can't respect that they are doing what they beleive to be right. Further more, the people I am talking about in this threat aren't directly promoting hatred of homosexuals. It's a politcal stance based on what they think is right for our country as a whole that is indirectly suppressing the rights of a group of people.

Icarys -> RE: Why, in the Holy living Mother of God FUCK is this a continuing dilemma?????? (6/10/2008 10:12:03 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Archer I once floated an idea about how cities should protest the no gay marriage thing. Issue no marriage licenses at all. Sorry unless and until we can issue them to gay couples we're just not going to issue them at all. Now lets see how many of the christian rightare going to deal with their daughters not being able to get legally married, LOL. I'm sure that would stir up some shit huh.I'm kinda like the other guy(not going to look to see who it is)that says he sees multiple views.it does in fact say something in the bible about men laying with men(not sure where it is)i can see why religious people see it as wrong...yet i don't see why gays should have to suffer without the same rights as the straights.

MadRabbit -> RE: Why, in the Holy living Mother of God FUCK is this a continuing dilemma?????? (6/10/2008 10:12:49 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Icarys quote: ORIGINAL: MadRabbit It's not an argument based on the Bible or Christian values, but rather American values. Ironically, American values are somewhat synonymous with Christian values, but that's not the point. They feel that marriage is an American institution and a part of the "traditional values" that this country was founded on and are part of American culture. I didn't say I respect the argument or the viewpoints, but respect the fact they are doing what they think is right. Which war in history had a side that declared themselves to be the "wrong" ones or the "evil" ones or did both sides think themselves to be "righteous"? But then again...I have this annoying knack for seeing both sides of an argument most of the time. Edited to Add : To answer the question of why the fuck this is an issue, beleive it or not, a lot of people don't share the vision of male-male and female-female couples walking down the streets, holding hands, and kissing in public. Just thought I would throw in something a little different amongst the dog pile this time. Religion is what drives this..where do you think the idea that two men together is wrong came from?the American values as i believe were drawn mostly from religion.this is one of them. Thank you for repeating the bolded part of my argument for everyone who didn't catch it the first time (including you).

pinksugarsub -> RE: Why, in the Holy living Mother of God FUCK is this a continuing dilemma?????? (6/10/2008 10:18:12 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Griswold Seriously (and I know I'm preaching to the choir here, but seriously)....why the FUCK is this even a goddamn topic of discussion anymore? http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080610/ap_on_re_us/gay_marriage_calif I swear, I fucking don't get it. Honest to God. Hey Gris. It continues to be discussed because it's a hot button issue for the Religious Right and those weenies in government who pander to them. BTW, i just hadda read Your Op -- You used the 'f**k' word, lol. pinksugarsub

MadRabbit -> RE: Why, in the Holy living Mother of God FUCK is this a continuing dilemma?????? (6/10/2008 10:19:47 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Griswold quote: ORIGINAL: MadRabbit -FR- As someone who has a few friends who are adamantly opposed to gay marriage, all I can say is they do so from a position of conservative values and do so, because they think it's morally wrong and the destruction of an institution they hold to be sacred. Even though I don't agree with their opinions and find all of them to have very ignorant and misinformed opinions of homosexuals, they are doing what they think is right. And... *I just gotta respect* that.** Please...no offense meant but....why? How? How can you respect someones opinion who says that the Universe revolves around the Earth, when you yourself can see through your own telescope....that clearly, the Earth is just a speck, and it meanders as a magnificent part of an incredible package? When every bit of logic and understanding tells you, in volumes...the world is wrong...and regardless of how often they express their opinion....it can't change the facts, that no matter how markedly the powers that be inform the world they're right....it just can't be. I don't accept that, I refuse to accept that....and I'll be (edited...trying to cool my jets) if I'll ever respect that. I'm not asking you or even saying that I respect the viewpoint in question, but that's different than not respecting the person. I get along with these guys, because I respect the fact that they are doing what they think is right, but I am always gonna oppose it because it's not what I think is right. All these guys have hung around homosexual friends of mine, been concious of their sexual orientation, and still managed to have a good time and treat them like a human being, because their political viewpoints aren't spurred from a hatred of gay people. They just really beleive that the legalization of same sex marriage is a wrong move for our country, because they beleive that traditional conservative values need to be upheld. They sure as hell have some ignorant opinions of gay people and aren't too thrilled about reducating themselves, but they certainly don't hate gay people. A lot of people are equating people who oppose gay marriage with being the equivalent of Neo-Nazis and I find that to be wrong in my experiences with conservatives.

hizgeorgiapeach -> RE: Why, in the Holy living Mother of God FUCK is this a continuing dilemma?????? (6/10/2008 10:20:52 PM)
Personally I don't understand why people would want to be married - regardless of the gender of their partner. Why ruin a good relationship with the threat of community property?

Griswold -> RE: Why, in the Holy living Mother of God FUCK is this a continuing dilemma?????? (6/10/2008 10:21:58 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: pinksugarsub BTW, i just hadda read Your Op -- You used the 'f*k' word, lol. pinksugarsub (Potty mouth!!!). I admit it...I'm a slut.*

pinksugarsub -> RE: Why, in the Holy living Mother of God FUCK is this a continuing dilemma?????? (6/10/2008 10:31:11 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MadRabbit It's not an argument based on the Bible or Christian values, but rather American values. Ironically, American values are somewhat synonymous with Christian values, but that's not the point. They feel that marriage is an American institution and a part of the "traditional values" that this country was founded on and are part of American culture. I didn't say I respect the argument or the viewpoints, but respect the fact they are doing what they think is right. Which war in history had a side that declared themselves to be the "wrong" ones or the "evil" ones or did both sides think themselves to be "righteous"? But then again...I have this annoying knack for seeing both sides of an argument most of the time. Edited to Add : To answer the question of why the fuck this is an issue, beleive it or not, a lot of people don't share the vision of male-male and female-female couples walking down the streets, holding hands, and kissing in public. Just thought I would throw in something a little different amongst the dog pile this time. There's no such thing as 'American values'. W/we are a diverse culture and values vary widely. It is also illogical to posit that if they existed,'American values' are based on 'Christian values'; whatever that means. The Founding Fathers were very concerned about the abuses they had seen in Europe when the power of the church was combined with the power of the state. That's why there's a specific clause in the Constitution prohibiting this. 'Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion.' BTW, i think W/we should stop coddling homophobes -- just like i think W/we should stop coddling any other 'ultra-sensitive' P/person. It's past time such P/pl acquired some manners. pinksugarsub

SailCapt -> RE: Why, in the Holy living Mother of God FUCK is this a continuing dilemma?????? (6/10/2008 10:35:12 PM)
So the problem here is that we've mixed the practices of the state with the practices of religion. There are good reasons to form a stable partnership with community property if you're going to have children. Encouraging couples to have children by providing them with incentives has generally been considered a good idea. The states concern is to have children raised in stable families so that they grow up to be good productive socially "normal" members of society. ("Normal in the mathematical statistical sense") The church wants similar things, plus they have the whole morality aspect. If you wish to be married in the eyes of the church, it can choose to set restrictions on what attributes you have to have to be eligible to marry. It might be that you're required to be a "good" practitioner, achieved the right level of attendance, not be divorced, what ever the church wants, they get to enforce. If you want the blessings of the church you have to comply. The problem is that invariably the secular requirements of the state "pervert" the will of the church. The Church should never have let the state get into this business, because now the state is going to trump them in setting requirements. The correct way to handle this would be to go back to the idea that the church and state are separate. You get a domestic partnership ( hetero or homo couples) if you create your partnership through the state. You get a marriage when you are married through the church. Your rights under law are the same, no matter what it's called. Community property, recognition of an offical bond, creation of familial responsibilities. Of course that will never fly as the religious folks want the state to enforce morality too.. but well what can you do. Tony

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