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RE: This has always bugged me... - 6/17/2008 1:38:01 PM

Madame4a

Posts: 2045
Joined: 2/4/2008
From: Washington, DC area
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LotusSong

I'm not saying it is wrong.. I'm saying it bothers me because I have seen the outcome of a pairings like this where the male sub falls for the fem sub playing Domme only to be shoved aside because of her loyalty to her Dom.

so that is your issue?

it can happen in any poly situation... earlier you said your issue was too much power a man held over a woman... *shrug*

maybe people like it that way?

_____________________________

You're crazy bitch
But you f*ck so good, I'm on top of it
When I dream, I'm doing you all night
Scratches all down my back to keep me right on

(in reply to LotusSong)

Post #: 21

RE: This has always bugged me... - 6/17/2008 1:49:12 PM

Lashra

Posts: 4900
Joined: 2/9/2006
Status: offline

I used to have trouble wrapping my head around the whole sub that is a Domme thing. But after I thought about it they really aren't a "Domme", I view them as more of a "Top" But since their first committment is to their Dom, they have to get permission to Top someone else. Yes maybe she does view herself as being a Dominant but in my view she is only doing it because someone else allows her too, so it that really being Dominant? No to my way of thinking, but if it works for their relationship more power to them.

~Lashra

_____________________________

“We can never judge the lives of others, because each person knows only their own pain and renunciation. It's one thing to feel that you are on the right path, but it's another to think that yours is the only path.”

(in reply to LotusSong)

Post #: 22

RE: This has always bugged me... - 6/17/2008 2:49:11 PM

undergroundsea

Posts: 2400
Joined: 6/27/2004
From: Austin, TX
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lashra
I used to have trouble wrapping my head around the whole sub that is a Domme thing. But after I thought about it they really aren't a "Domme", I view them as more of a "Top"

If all she is doing is flogging or SM activities with any D/s dynamic to the relationship, she could be called a top. If her relationship does have a D/s dynamic, I would call her a domme in her relationship with her sub, a sub in her relationship with her dom, and a switch in the bigger picture.

If her BDSM relationship has a D/s dynamic and the person from whom she seeks permission is a vanilla spouse, I would call her a domme in the bigger picture also.

quote:

Yes maybe she does view herself as being a Dominant but in my view she is only doing it because someone else allows her too, so it that really being Dominant?

In my opinion it is.

Dominance and submission are relationship expressions that are not the same as personality traits. Dominance or submission does not have to be absolute. People who are submissive in their intimate relationship might be dominant in their work relationship. Similarly, some people who are submissive in their primary relationship might be dominant in their secondary relationship.

In consensual relationships, every dominant is dominant because the submissive allows her. Yet, she is still dominant. Dominance does not require absolute authority over all in life. If one must succumb to rules of law, or requirement of an employer, or obligations to family, and can still be dominant, I think one can sucuumb to rules of a primary relationship and still be dominant. An apprentice dominant who defers to authority and permission from a mentor dominant is still a dominant in relationships where she has that role.

I think our points of reference differ. I see multiple possibilities for points of reference, and it seems your statement is with respect to an absolute point of reference. I am not convinced there is an absolute point of reference.

Cheers,

Sea

(in reply to Lashra)

Post #: 23

RE: This has always bugged me... - 6/17/2008 2:55:16 PM

DominantJenny

Posts: 645
Joined: 4/6/2008
Status: offline

Sea, you are too damned smart for your own good. (That's a compliment. ;P)

(in reply to undergroundsea)

Post #: 24

RE: This has always bugged me... - 6/17/2008 4:40:50 PM

LadyLynx

Posts: 1098
Joined: 7/24/2007
Status: offline

Lotus, it all depends on what person figures they want and need in a relationship/dynamic. I think this thread is beginning to be a moot point.

_____________________________

Our community maybe openminded as a whole, but it is still made up of individuals who bring in their own opinions,baggage and agendas!

Known as SwitchWitch in my local community,and on IRC Bondage.

I also go by the nic SwitchWitch on MDS.

(in reply to DominantJenny)

Post #: 25

RE: This has always bugged me... - 6/17/2008 4:54:15 PM

petdave

Posts: 2479
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LotusSong

Also, take into consideration the fulfillment of a submissive who wants a Domme's entire focus without having to know a Dom is standing there pulling the strings. Men are drawn to an image of that which they seek in their minds first..to find that that image is a Dom in Dommes clothing might be a great disappointment. If the girl is up front and lets the male sub know what is going on... then if he wishes to submit to that dynamic, it is his decision.

I'm not saying it is wrong.. I'm saying it bothers me because I have seen the outcome of a pairings like this where the male sub falls for the fem sub playing Domme only to be shoved aside because of her loyalty to her Dom.

i feel the same way on this one... i think there's a huge difference between belonging to a Domme, and belonging to a sub at her Owner's whim. i'm sure there are guys who want to be secondary (tertiary, etc.) in that way, but to me it comes down to that "don't give up control to someone who doesn't have control of herself" thang.

Of course, i'm the first to admit that i'm really, really NOT poly-minded, so...

(in reply to LotusSong)

Post #: 26

RE: This has always bugged me... - 6/17/2008 5:04:10 PM

LotusSong

Posts: 6334
Joined: 7/2/2006
From: Domme Emeritus
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyLynx

Lotus, it all depends on what person figures they want and need in a relationship/dynamic. I think this thread is beginning to be a moot point.

Yes, this is true. because it's gotten a bit off-track. It was not speaking of the switch phenomenon but the use of a sub by the dom "allowing" her to 'domme' someone. It would be like you needing permission to switch under the direction of the Dom and only when he tells you and with whom he wishes. Where would your energy and attention lie? With the submissive who is submitting to you or to the Dom? Anyhow, I'm more interesting in the male sub's opinion and how it effects them. Preferably non-switch subs. Do they feel in competition with the Dom?

_____________________________

Life Lesson #1

I'm not your type.
I'm not inflatable.

(in reply to LadyLynx)

Post #: 27

RE: This has always bugged me... - 6/17/2008 5:49:32 PM

SolangeRichards

Posts: 170
Joined: 5/8/2005
Status: offline

I'm often contacted by female dominants who say they have a master who is interested in "t-gurls"....

Frankly, I doubt there actually is a woman at all...

At the end of the day, I would assume an attractive master would have no problem attracting subs. I wonder why one would need a female roper to bring in any more....

The world is a many layered place. I can picture a dominant female, who is sub to a master, but what's that got to do with me? I'm looking for what I seek, and that has zero to do with male masters. Maybe you are a dominant woman and maybe you are sub to some guy. I'm not interested in him. He does not matter. He's not important to, or involved in, our dynamic. At least from where I live.

If you write me, and start yapping about him, I start thinking there is no you, and it's him playing around at the keyboard...

Just my thoughts...

(in reply to LotusSong)

Post #: 28

RE: This has always bugged me... - 6/17/2008 5:54:12 PM

Skully7000

Posts: 377
Joined: 7/22/2007
Status: offline

quote:

The situation where a female needs permission from her Dom to top (or in her mind 'dominate') another and then only who he says she can.

Lead, follow or get out of the way, for pete's sake

quote:

ORIGINAL: LotusSong

quote:

ORIGINAL: SeeksOnlyOne

if she agrees to that dynamic. why should it bother you?

Several reasons:

... because it plays to the mind of "a Domme is only a sub who hasn't found the right master". as well as it proves a lack of understanding what the Domme dynamic is.. you know - she's the one in control by her own volition?

LotusSong,

It appears there are several issues here that you are , perhaps unnecessarily combining. (or perhaps its the combination that you have the problem with)

1) "A domme is only a sub who hasn't found the right master" that is just as bad as a lesbian who hasn't met the right man... I don't believe in Either as a rule. I do believe that there is always the possibility that anyone may meet someone they might consider switching to...This falls under my Overly optimistic hopeless romantic view of "there is no rules in love and war" mentality... but again this is something that might happen because of a wonderful D/s version of Cupids arrows. (meaning it has to happen becuase the situation is right for the two people involved...it can't be forced...) not to mention that it has the potential to happen between two people. regardless of sex or race or D/s etc etc. and in regards to the scenario you are speaking about: She DID find the right master...and agreed to serve him... I'm sorry if that bothers you. in the end I would rather they find something what works because it organically works for them...rather then denying the chance at a happy and healthy relationship because she put her self labeling as a Domme before her heart and gut.

2)"The situation where a female needs permission from her Dom to...." well they are in a D/s Dynamic... it is up to their individual relationship to set the parameters of what the sub is and isn't allowed to do...and when s/he must ask permission. In a healthy realtionship the sub will already know wether or not they can play with other people...they just need to know if they can play "at that moment" or "with new person X" this actually makes alot of sense because if they are at an event or anywhere TOGETHER then the Dom will have first dibs on playing with his sub. So yeah she should check with Him if she wants run off and play with someone else. Even if he wasn't at the event with her...Cell Phones... and if that doesn't work... that is why you have protocols and rules that both parties agree to.

3) "then only who he says she can." in the end this really just comes down to the integrity of the Dom now doesn't it.
Personally I have 2 reasons why I would deny my sub: A) I have plans for her, those plans can be an intense scene, just sending her to get me a beverage from the bar, or just because I want my sub at my feet while I'm enjoying a good conversation...either way...She is my sub and she is there to meet my needs first. B)Now if i'm not using her and she wants to go play: the only reason I may say no is because I don't trust her partner...or have some other reason that is in her best interest. AND I MEAN HER Best interest...not being terrortial, not being selfish... (truth is I love watching my partners play...and if they are jonesing for a scene and I'm not up for it I will enable her to play and actually have fun...I Take care of my toys to the best of my abilities)

As an Additional Note: I completely consider asking permission as a HUGE judge of character for the person. if they are able to look me in the Eye and tell me that they are interested in playing with my sub...then they have gained a decent amount of respect...(as long as they show me the respect of being her Dom) If they can't look me in the eye because they are nervous...then thats ok too... its not a deal breaker...(but seriously I'm a very nice and pleasant person to be around so I automatically question anyone's motives who can't at least look me in the eye.) Also their is nothing wrong with her asking me without even needing to talk to him...but there will be certain questions...again to make sure she is being safe,

4)"proves a lack of understanding what the Domme dynamic is.. you know - she's the one in control by her own volition? "
again the scenario you are presenting: A Domme who has CHOSEN TO submit to a maleDom. so who exactly doesn't understand the Domme Dynamic? She is free to do as she pleases once her Dom has given her "Free Swim" as long as she maintains the general Relationship rules and protocols that She and her Dom have already agreed to... If she can't have sex with anyone else but me but she is allowed oral...then thats fine. if its a standing rule... she doesn't even have to ask me about that... she can just ask: "can I play with him" as the rules of what is involved in "play" have already been established
*****************************************************

All in all I think the biggest part about all this is that if the dominant is going to allow the sub to play with others the decision should be one that is made from healthy, informed input. And the sub should remember that they agreed to submit to their Dominant and that respect should always be maintained for that dominant...shown by following the rules and protocols that both have agreed to.

it all boils down to Integrity and Communication. and it is totally outside the relm of maledom femdomme, etc.

Respectfully
Skully

(in reply to LotusSong)

Post #: 29

RE: This has always bugged me... - 6/17/2008 5:54:18 PM

SolangeRichards

Posts: 170
Joined: 5/8/2005
Status: offline

Ooops! I do not mean to reply to LotusSong on this, just giving my general thoughts on the general topic

Any confusion on this is my fault and no one elses

(in reply to SolangeRichards)

Post #: 30

RE: This has always bugged me... - 6/17/2008 5:59:34 PM

camille65

Posts: 5746
Joined: 7/11/2007
From: Austin Texas
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LotusSong

I feel having to ask permission to dominate and only that which the dominant OKs gives a male more power over a person than he is entitled to. If the female wishes to be dominant- the only permission she needs is her's. Otherwise it's all a game of pretend.

I can't comprehend topping or dominating someone without my owners express approval & permission.

_____________________________

~Love your life! (It is the only one you'll get).

(in reply to LotusSong)

Post #: 31

RE: This has always bugged me... - 6/17/2008 6:09:51 PM

Skully7000

Posts: 377
Joined: 7/22/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LotusSong

My comments are based on my heterosexual experience in which I owned only male slave. That's what I know. So what you do would be of no interest to me..that's a dynamic I'm not involved in. That being said..I feel having to ask permission to dominate and only that which the dominant OKs gives a male more power over a person than he is entitled to. If the female wishes to be dominant- the only permission she needs is her's. Otherwise it's all a game of pretend.

Also, take into consideration the fulfillment of a submissive who wants a Domme's entire focus without having to know a Dom is standing there pulling the strings. Men are drawn to an image of that which they seek in their minds first..to find that that image is a Dom in Dommes clothing might be a great disappointment. If the girl is up front and lets the male sub know what is going on... then if he wishes to submit to that dynamic, it is his decision.

I'm not saying it is wrong.. I'm saying it bothers me because I have seen the outcome of a pairings like this where the male sub falls for the fem sub playing Domme only to be shoved aside because of her loyalty to her Dom.

Male subs have enough roadblocks in finding a partner.. this one give false hope to those who are looking for a more permanent arrangement and ownership.

I could adress each of these point individually... but in the end they can all be summed up under "Integrity and Communication" within all parties involved. if that is the case...there is no "False" anything...No Pretend... the power of Entitlment extends only to what is granted... The male Sub is satisfied with the level of Focus he receives...because in reality nobody gets someones ENTIRE Focus..there is always work and bills and friends etc etc. And loyalty extends from the Dom to the Domme to the sub and inbetween and all around...

is it always going to be as pretty no... its alot of work and the road will be bumpy... but there are FAR to many people who are living it Long Term and very happy about it. just because you don't understand it nor agree with it doesn't make it wrong.

(in reply to LotusSong)

Post #: 32

RE: This has always bugged me... - 6/17/2008 7:03:10 PM

LadyHibiscus

Posts: 27124
Joined: 8/15/2005
From: Island Of Misfit Toys
Status: offline

Feeling a little ignored here! Harumph!

My question is, do the dommes operating under these parameters feel hobbled at all, or do they feel like they are really expressing their dominant aspect? There's a world of folks out there doing this kind of thing, and I am curious~I am not about to say that they are wrong for living their lives the way they like.

_____________________________

[page 23 girl]

(in reply to Skully7000)

Post #: 33

RE: This has always bugged me... - 6/17/2008 7:19:45 PM

undergroundsea

Posts: 2400
Joined: 6/27/2004
From: Austin, TX
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: DominantJenny
(That's a compliment. ;P)

Thank you for the compliment :)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LotusSong
Anyhow, I'm more interesting in the male sub's opinion and how it effects them. Preferably non-switch subs. Do they feel in competition with the Dom?

As I indicated in a prior post that I would adjust my expectations and investment in the relationship when one has an existing primary relationship and would be fine as long as there was general mutual respect. I do not identify as poly but am open to non-exclusive play--ongoing or not--with a woman in a relationship if I am otherwise available. I would be troubled in such a scenario if the situation felt disrespectful to me (canceling plans with me on his behest beyond what occurs in general social relationships, conversations interrupted without general social courtesy). Because I would not have expectations of and would not be courting towards an exclusive relationship, and would consider myself single and free to participate elsewhere, I would not feel competition as I might if each of us was courting a single woman.

Seven years ago I was courting a single switch who told me she was going to a party as a date of a dom and wanted to play with me there. They were not a couple and, because of her recent entry into the local scene, each of us had recently met. I had reservations about that idea, partially because of how it affected my courtship, and partially because I did not wish to be involved in a power heirarchy. I told her about my concerns and did not have much interaction with her at the party. I think my ego stepped in more than it should have at that time. Today I would still be concerned about the effects on courtship but I would not assume the power heirarchy by simply transitive association (if a> b, and b>c, then a>c does not apply), and would take this half of the matter for energy of the interactions and mutual respect shown.

Cheers,

Sea

(in reply to DominantJenny)

Post #: 34

RE: This has always bugged me... - 6/17/2008 7:54:35 PM

LotusSong

Posts: 6334
Joined: 7/2/2006
From: Domme Emeritus
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Skully7000

. just because you don't understand it nor agree with it doesn't make it wrong.

Skully.. you seem to have a very knee-jerk reaction to this topic. After all the switch grand standing.. which was expected.. it remains to be addressed how said "playing domme" reflects on those who consider the ramification of their actions outside their own personal gratification. There is another person involved that may feel a bit deeper about their submission than the "domme" does. Some people are .. others just play..know what I mean? I think some people need a warning sign " I'm not a domme, I just play one in a dungeon, but I need to ask permission first".

Ah well.. what started as a slight rant has become the usual pissing contest from those who find offense in anything other than their own opinion. Buh-bye.

< Message edited by LotusSong -- 6/17/2008 7:55:42 PM >

_____________________________

Life Lesson #1

I'm not your type.
I'm not inflatable.

(in reply to Skully7000)

Post #: 35

RE: This has always bugged me... - 6/17/2008 7:58:11 PM

undergroundsea

Posts: 2400
Joined: 6/27/2004
From: Austin, TX
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus
My question is, do the dommes operating under these parameters feel hobbled at all, or do they feel like they are really expressing their dominant aspect?

Now this here would be a pretty crazy scenario:

Domme <on phone>: Master, may I flog him?
Dom: Yes, you may
Domme: <flogs>
Sub: One, thank you, Mistress
Domme: You are welcome. Master, thank you for letting me flog him
Dom: You are welcome. You may give him another.
Domme: <flogs>

;-)

Based on my experiences, it is less a question of D/s dynamics, and more a question of issues involved with non-monogamous play. That is, the spouses have already discussed what their boundaries are and the domme is trusted to stay within the boundaries usually without any oversight, involvement, or presence of her spouse. For instance, sexual play might be their boundary. Boundaries are defined to preserve that relationship, which is mutually wanted by both spouses in healthy relationships. Within the mutually negotitated boundaries of the couple, and those between the domme and the sub, she is free to roam about the cabin as is any other domme within the boundaries defined by any other one-on-one relationship. So it's similar to other relationships with boundaries except here more goes into defining the boundaries.

Cheers,

Sea

< Message edited by undergroundsea -- 6/17/2008 8:01:24 PM >

(in reply to LadyHibiscus)

Post #: 36

RE: This has always bugged me... - 6/17/2008 8:31:09 PM

undergroundsea

Posts: 2400
Joined: 6/27/2004
From: Austin, TX
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LotusSong
it remains to be addressed how said "playing domme" reflects on those who consider the ramification of their actions outside their own personal gratification.

I think it remains to be explained how said domme does not consider the ramification of her actions outside her own personal gratification. Why do you feel she does not consider the ramifications of her actions?

quote:

I think some people need a warning sign " I'm not a domme, I just play one in a dungeon, but I need to ask permission first".

What is the objective of the warning sign you suggest; what exactly is the outcome the sign is intended to prevent?

Your statement suggests that such a person is not a domme. Perhaps we are tripping over terminology. How exactly do you define or characterize a domme?

Cheers,

Sea

< Message edited by undergroundsea -- 6/17/2008 8:59:15 PM >

(in reply to LotusSong)

Post #: 37

RE: This has always bugged me... - 6/17/2008 9:24:53 PM

Vigilantejustice

Posts: 106
Joined: 11/15/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: undergroundsea

quote:

ORIGINAL: LotusSong
it remains to be addressed how said "playing domme" reflects on those who consider the ramification of their actions outside their own personal gratification.

I think it remains to be explained how said domme does not consider the ramification of her actions outside her own personal gratification. Why do you feel she does not consider the ramifications of her actions?

quote:

I think some people need a warning sign " I'm not a domme, I just play one in a dungeon, but I need to ask permission first".

What is the objective of the warning sign you suggest; what exactly is the outcome the sign is intended to prevent?

Your statement suggests that such a person is not a domme. Perhaps we are tripping over terminology. How exactly do you define or characterize a domme?

Cheers,

Sea

I'm going to jump in here as someone whose relationships/role vaguely resembles what Lotus Song is talking about.

I'm kind of switchy, but mostly submissive. I have a HusDom, and a boy.

In my experience (what I have done myself, as well as what I have seen others do) it is more common for a person to be honest, and have scruples about the relationships that are pre-existing when they enter into a new relationship.

For me this meant letting my boy know, right off the bat, that my HusDom was going to be my first priority, and that he would have a fair amount of input as to the relationship between my boy and myself. I also encouraged him to form a relationship with my HusDom, so that if conflicts arose instead of fleeing the scene or forbidding X, Y or Z, we could all talk about it together like adults.

From what it sounds like to me, the "Dommes" in question are guilty of little more than being unclear about their intentions, expectations and relationship status to the person with whom they intend to play. Not that I consider that okay, but communication breakdowns do occur, especially where sex and romance are involved.

Whether that is a lack of consideration "outside their own personal gratification" is still a bit murky for me, as those are pretty broad brush strokes to be painting with when one only has snippets of information that don't speak to a specific incident. However, I think the malice implied there is uncalled for in a discussion of a general activity.

-Corinne
House Vigilante

_____________________________

“Love begets love. This torment is my joy.”
"Those who are willing to be vulnerable move among mysteries."
"[Your work] is carved out of agony as a statue is carved out of marble." -All by Theodore Roethke

(in reply to undergroundsea)

Post #: 38

RE: This has always bugged me... - 6/17/2008 9:56:10 PM

Skully7000

Posts: 377
Joined: 7/22/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus

Feeling a little ignored here! Harumph!

My question is, do the dommes operating under these parameters feel hobbled at all, or do they feel like they are really expressing their dominant aspect? There's a world of folks out there doing this kind of thing, and I am curious~I am not about to say that they are wrong for living their lives the way they like.

In my experience it simply becomes akin to any other limit imposed on yourself or by your master... if your urge to do something that you don't have permission for is that strongly...then its time to take it up with your master...otherwise you just reach into the bag of tricks and enjoy other pleasures.

(in reply to LadyHibiscus)

Post #: 39

RE: This has always bugged me... - 6/17/2008 10:36:31 PM

undergroundsea

Posts: 2400
Joined: 6/27/2004
From: Austin, TX
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Vigilantejustice
From what it sounds like to me, the "Dommes" in question are guilty of little more than being unclear about their intentions, expectations and relationship status to the person with whom they intend to play.

If such is occurring then I see the basis for the objection. However, I do not see the basis for why one should assume such is occurring. I interpret the focus of the objection to be on the point that the woman who is dominant in the relationship in turn must answer to someone else.

Cheers,

Sea

(in reply to Vigilantejustice)

Post #: 40

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