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RE: Please Respond -- Symptoms of Neuro Illnesses - 6/24/2008 7:03:18 AM   
GreedyTop


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ok.. I think CA has an equivalent.. I know NY does..   but it's only law/dr/court?  I thought there was an option for family to do the same...

meh.

who knows.

Since I'm not convinced that the OP wasn't a work of fiction, I don't really care...

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RE: Please Respond -- Symptoms of Neuro Illnesses - 6/24/2008 7:10:33 AM   
sirsholly


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GreedyTop

ok.. I think CA has an equivalent.. I know NY does..   but it's only law/dr/court?  I thought there was an option for family to do the same...

meh.

who knows.

Since I'm not convinced that the OP wasn't a work of fiction, I don't really care...


Greedy...the family has a great deal to say about it, but they cannot drag a family member into the nearest Psych unit and drop them off. The most common way for a family to intervine is through the police dept (and it is a very hard thing for the family to do to their loved one.). The police will transport the patient to an ER with a psych eval unit. Even if it is a psych doctor arranging a commitment from his office the police are involved for the protection of everyone.


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RE: Please Respond -- Symptoms of Neuro Illnesses - 6/24/2008 7:11:23 AM   
LadyRainfire


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As an EMT, I can tell you that a 5150 would be used on a patient exhibiting symptoms usually emotionally or psych based that are a danger to themselves or others. It would call for them to be locked down in a psych ward at a facility. Based on what I've read, OP's supposed brother is exhibiting neuro/medical symptoms that would not qualify for a 5150. Now, on the other hand, depending on his age, she could call the local Council on Aging and describe his condition or the local Health and Welfare and have a welfare check done if she suspects there is any neglect or abuse. They take abuse/neglect calls all the time for children/elders and disabled or ill patients.

*sighs* Ok, no snarky comments.... Can I have a cookie?


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RE: Please Respond -- Symptoms of Neuro Illnesses - 6/24/2008 7:15:35 AM   
sirsholly


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if it is a question of this person being a danger behind the wheel then the op has to contact the local police dept who will order a medical eval by a GP. If the GP feels this person is unsafe then he will notify the PD and her brother will be forced to surrender his license

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RE: Please Respond -- Symptoms of Neuro Illnesses - 6/24/2008 7:43:49 AM   
suhlut


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As a person that lives with the 50% odds of developing Huntingtons, i've been watching pinks posts here and in Ask a Master thread she posted..and finding the whole thing rather sickening.

If this is all a ploy, for attention, as it often SEEMS to be.. it angers me that someone would use a Neuroligical set of symptoms in such a way.

On the offchance that she really is looking for help and guidance, i will share my perspective.

If one of my sisters, or brother were coming online to ask if s/he should find a way of forcing ME into getting tested for the Huntington gene.. i'd be FURIOUS!

Now i dont know a whole lot about what other Neuro disease patients face, as i have been studying my own potential "future" with Huntingtons, but i can say that from where i stand its a HUGE mistake to try forcing someone "kicking and screaming" to see a doctor.

i chose, two years ago, to go see a doctor, on my own, MY decision.
i tried to get tested, but the Neuro Doctor here turned out to be an asshole, and he didnt like my reasons for wishing to be tested, so refused to sign me an order for the blood test.

The Doc also told me it would be a huge mistake for me to be tested, because he said even if i got results back saying i was negative, that Insurance companies (both health and life) would forever after be able to refuse me coverage. And so, i gave up trying to be tested, and choose to live in perpetual fear, rather then loose out on insurance options.

Reading pinks posts about her brother, has been upsetting, thinking back about the last ten/ twenty years of my mothers life before she died, and then thinking about what i see as my own symptoms. i have recently gotten to the point where i am again sick of worrying, and i've decided i just dont give a shit anymore about insurance anymore, that i need to know my diagnosis more. So, am planning on finding another doctor and be tested.

BUT, all of this has been my own decisions, and i'd have been angry if a sibling tried forcing me into being tested.

For anyone that doesnt know what Huntingtons is, its a Neurological disease (brain) that is passed on from one generation to the next, through genetics. Because my mother had it, i am at risk of inheriting Huntingtons at a  50% / 50% set of odds. If i have it, my children would have the same 50% risk, but if i DONT, then my children never would. Which means it does not skip generations.

Huntingtons is a terrible disease, and manifests in many ways, loss of speech, loss of muscular control, (arms and legs ect flail about uncontrollably) falling down often, choking on food/liquids..and patients face many many years of the disease, before it takes their lives. Lives lived, like my mothers, where at least the last ten years of her life, were spent in a nursing home, no longer able to talk in ways that can be understood by others (slurred words, and eventually just plain nonsence) no longer able to read, nor write, and eventually no longer able to walk, living in a drug induced haze, for years on end.

as her child, like any children whom watch their parents die, it was hard to see it happening to her, but, its even worse when you are also wondering if THIS is in your future too. i've often had nightmares since my mother died, that i'd also inherited her nursing home "room", and her bed, and her special padded chair. It terrifies the fuck outta me.

Which is why i think its a mistake to do ANYTHING with your brother, other then just TALKING to him. From what i've read, it doesnt seem that the symptoms point to Huntingtons, he and you would have had to have a parent that also had the disease. What it seems more to be, is possibly Alzhimers. So, have lunch on wednesday, and tell him EXACTLY what worries you, what you see as being wrong, LIST them out, and then ask him what he thinks, offer him support and love, for whatever he chooses, but you need to get it out of your head to think you can do anything but let the man make his own decisions. His wife has much more athority over the situation, legally. He is a married adult Man, and has the right, if he so chooses, to NOT know what he has wrong with him.

i wouldnt dream of trying to force any of my 4 sisters/ nor my brother into being tested, no matter that i have decided to be tested myself. They too also live with the 50% chance of getting it, but its NOT my place to try forcing them to KNOW if they have it, or not. My brother decided to be tested, already, and is awaiting the results of the blood test, for 2 to 6 weeks.

pink, if this really is you looking for advice, honestly, and not a ploy for attention, pity, whatever, i hope with all my heart that your brother is fine...

If it IS a ploy, of an attention whore, then shame on you!

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RE: Please Respond -- Symptoms of Neuro Illnesses - 6/24/2008 9:54:46 AM   
sirsholly


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your post is excellent    and i think you are very brave. I am not sure i would have the courage to have the bloodwork done. I admire you.

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RE: Please Respond -- Symptoms of Neuro Illnesses - 6/24/2008 10:47:46 AM   
CalifChick


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Last time I checked, every state has some version of the involuntary hold, ranging from 24 hours to 72 hours, in which a mental health professional or peace officer determines if the person is to be held.  The gold standard is "danger to self or others or gravely disabled (unable to seek or make use of food/clothing/shelter".  That usually means actively homicidal or actively suicidal.  Just acting strange, having trouble remembering things, etc., is not enough. Holding past 72 hours requires a hearing.

In California, it is the Lanterman-Petris-Short Act, also known as the "5150" for that section of the Welfare and Institutions Code.

Cali


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RE: Please Respond -- Symptoms of Neuro Illnesses - 6/24/2008 8:10:23 PM   
suhlut


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sirsholly

your post is excellent    and i think you are very brave. I am not sure i would have the courage to have the bloodwork done. I admire you.


Thanks for the comment/reply holly.

Being tested is a very hard thing to concider doing. Last time,2 years ago, i remember the days before i was to go meet that Doctor, as being panic attack filled days of paralysing fear. i really really didnt wanna go. But i had what i believed were stronger reasons for wanting to know, so that when he refused to sign the test to be done, all the i'd experienced in the last few days felt like an awful waste.

Just walking into his office took every bit of courage and strength i had available, but its even worse to think how its going to be/ feel when i have the DNA test order in my hands, and walking into the lab to have my blood drawn. Knowing me, i'll probably faint.

Still its better then living every day of my life, feeling a muscle twitch here.. a muscle jump there..and wondering.." is that a symptom?" so.. fuck insurance companies and their fucked up system.

LadyRainFire~.. thanks for the c mail!

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RE: Please Respond -- Symptoms of Neuro Illnesses - 6/24/2008 8:12:04 PM   
GreedyTop


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*hugs* suhlut  I wish you the best....(and your post was awesome..I can only echo holly...)

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RE: Please Respond -- Symptoms of Neuro Illnesses - 6/24/2008 8:38:28 PM   
suhlut


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GreedyTop

*hugs* suhlut  I wish you the best....(and your post was awesome..I can only echo holly...)


Thanks Greedy
                 i've been thinking that what i wrote was likely a waste of time, if what i  hoped to get out of it, was her to think about what i wrote, but then one of the main reasons why i even posted was to give a first person reason for why its a mistake that people made in advising her to drag him "kicking and screaming" to a Doctor.

i hope that they might see it from a different perspective, and maybe try stepping into the shoes of someone else, and think for a moment.. "if it were me..how would i feel if someone tried taking me to a doctor i didnt want to see?"

And then, theres also that i feel a bit like a Spokesperson for those whom face the chances, or already live as a person with Huntingtons. Not many people know about the disease at all...and i have often felt that its a disease that often gets overlooked because of it being hereditary, and makes it less important, unlike cancer, for example, its not a disease that just anyone can get.

Its a disease that never recieved much study and searches for a cure, until rather recently. i personally believe that stem cell research, would help big time, but everyone knows how most people feel about stem cell research.
as it stands, still no cure.

If anyone is interested, thers tons of info online that can be read to understand a bit better what Huntingtons is, but i also do know that a search for Huntingtons on youtube will bring up many hits that range from television segments about the disease, to home videos showing those whom suffer from it.. and so, i invite anyone to watch, and see what a MONSTER of a disease it is.

~s

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RE: Please Respond -- Symptoms of Neuro Illnesses - 6/24/2008 9:52:32 PM   
GreedyTop


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wow. I just watched a couple of the vids.. just .,. wow.

I'll for sure keep you and your family in my thoughts, suhlut.. I cant begin to understand what it's like to go through it.or even to watch a loved one do so.. *HUGS*

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RE: Please Respond -- Symptoms of Neuro Illnesses - 6/24/2008 10:18:17 PM   
suhlut


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Thanks Greedy, it was very sweet of you to care enough to go and watch.

and thanks again, for your thoughts.

~s

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RE: Please Respond -- Symptoms of Neuro Illnesses - 6/25/2008 7:09:23 PM   
DesFIP


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And the truth is, sometimes nothing can be done until the person requires hospital treatment. We got the keys away from my father a year ago, but he's been going downhill steadily for some years. However we couldn't have proved him incompetent to gain conservatorship.

A month ago he fell and an ambulance was called. At that point he had no choice but to have all the tests done. Plus since he was judged incapable of taking care of himself the hospital wouldn't release him and we took his clothes home. He stayed there while we made arrangements for home health aides. Does he like this? No. Does he accept it when reminded the choice is aides in his home or assisted living? You bet.

The best thing that happened was for him to require hospitalization.

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RE: Please Respond -- Symptoms of Neuro Illnesses - 6/26/2008 2:47:36 AM   
Aswad


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Edit: redundant.

< Message edited by Aswad -- 6/26/2008 3:04:39 AM >


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RE: Please Respond -- Symptoms of Neuro Illnesses - 6/26/2008 2:56:04 AM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GreedyTop

what about Baker Act/ 5150? Or whatever its called in whichever jurisdiction; 72 hour psych eval hold?


Ah. That would be what I was thinking about. If this person is as described, it shouldn't be too hard to justify a psych eval (depending on whether driving while impaired is one of those things that will qualify over there), and it doesn't take a full 72 hours to figure out that there's something worth looking into (and actually doing the looking).

Health,
al-Aswad.


< Message edited by Aswad -- 6/26/2008 3:11:23 AM >


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RE: Please Respond -- Symptoms of Neuro Illnesses - 6/26/2008 3:28:47 AM   
Aswad


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To suhlut,

First, kudos on being that open about a difficult condition.

Now, the OP did not mention a family history of Huntington's (which would be likely; as you say, it does not skip generations, and a random occurence of a triple repeat is unlikely), and the symptoms she described include impairment of Wernicke's area (not affected by Huntington's) and a loss of short term memory (not affected by Huntington's in terms of actual recall, though the modality of recall may be affected). Perhaps my recollection of the symptoms of Huntington's are way off, but if they're not, then there's really no way it will account for what she described.

I fully sympathize with what you say about forced eval, despite being one of those who suggested it.

I stand by the suggestion, however.

Health,
al-Aswad.


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RE: Please Respond -- Symptoms of Neuro Illnesses - 6/26/2008 3:51:31 AM   
sirsholly


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

quote:

ORIGINAL: GreedyTop

what about Baker Act/ 5150? Or whatever its called in whichever jurisdiction; 72 hour psych eval hold?


Ah. That would be what I was thinking about. If this person is as described, it shouldn't be too hard to justify a psych eval (depending on whether driving while impaired is one of those things that will qualify over there), and it doesn't take a full 72 hours to figure out that there's something worth looking into (and actually doing the looking).

Health,
al-Aswad.



a lay person cannot subject another to a psych eval. It can be suggested, the info from friends/family can be the cause for a professional to deem it necessary, but only a medical professional. law officer or judge can order it done if it is against the will of the patient.
And inpaired driving is not a reason for a forced commitment. It IS a cause for a medical evaluation but commiting someone for that reason is not done.


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RE: Please Respond -- Symptoms of Neuro Illnesses - 6/26/2008 10:33:01 AM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sirsholly

And inpaired driving is not a reason for a forced commitment.


No, but I suspect it may be cause to have the licence made contingent on an evaluation.

quote:

It IS a cause for a medical evaluation but commiting someone for that reason is not done.


I'd imagine that depends on the doc. If the problem is that someone appears to have a very serious and probably terminal illness that has a significant likelyhood of causing them to become a danger to others, some docs might be inclined to use any loophole they have to get the evaluation done so the appropriate steps can be taken. Unless they are too scared by litigation to act responsibly, of course.

As long as they yank his licence, it's just a matter of waiting for him to qualify, anyway.

If he decides to be an ass about the whole thing, then evolution will run its course.

Which will nonetheless be painful to the OP, hence grasping at straws.

Health,
al-Aswad.


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RE: Please Respond -- Symptoms of Neuro Illnesses - 6/26/2008 1:34:46 PM   
daddysliloneds


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based on your other thread regarding your brother , his wife,  and how you tie into all of this, i would figure it this way, if he were that bad off, he and she would be the ones to notice and take action; he's not your responsibility no matter how much you care for him or how much you wish to be involved...

hell, for all you know, he may already know what's going on and just hasn't revealed it to you!

if that isn't a satisfactory answer or advice for you, then if i were you, i'd call his doctor and tell him everything that you have first-hand knowledge of him experiencing and leave it at that...

for all you know, it could be a combination of his medications causing all of these symptoms or stress related based on all the b.s. between you, his family, and the two of yours extended family...

that's the best i have to offer you, and the best that i would offer my own brother.

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RE: Please Respond -- Symptoms of Neuro Illnesses - 6/27/2008 8:53:29 AM   
suhlut


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

To suhlut,

First, kudos on being that open about a difficult condition.

Now, the OP did not mention a family history of Huntington's (which would be likely; as you say, it does not skip generations, and a random occurence of a triple repeat is unlikely), and the symptoms she described include impairment of Wernicke's area (not affected by Huntington's) and a loss of short term memory (not affected by Huntington's in terms of actual recall, though the modality of recall may be affected). Perhaps my recollection of the symptoms of Huntington's are way off, but if they're not, then there's really no way it will account for what she described.

I fully sympathize with what you say about forced eval, despite being one of those who suggested it.

I stand by the suggestion, however.

Health,
al-Aswad.



Wow, Aswad Sir, i am surprised!. Might i ask how You happen to know about Huntingtons? And You are right, none of the things she describes leads me to believe her brother might have Huntingtons. From the studying of it that i have done, though, it IS possible for people to develop Huntingtons, with no family history, BUT that occurance is VERY rare.

i was surprised to see that You mentioned the triple repeat, which most people will have no clue what that means.

From the study i have done heres the best explanation to those whom have never studied it.

After they began to study Human DNA,(called The Human Genome Project) to begin the process of mapping out DNA, in 1993 the gene causing HD was found, making it one of the first inherited genetic disorders  for which an accurate test could be performed. Before this, there was no way to test a person, and instead a diagnosis was done by family history.

My mother for example, was pre diagnosed by family history, (that my grandmother suffered and eventually died from what they thought to be Huntingtons) when she too began to show the same symptoms. This was done, sometime before 1993 of course, because they didnt have a test to perform yet to prove it. A few years after 1993, we had my mother tested with the band new test available, which confirmed the original family history diagnosis.

So, DNA is broken up into 4 groups of Nucleotides C A G T

In the Huntingtons gene only 3 of those 4 Nucleotides are used for testing. C A G, because they start triple repeating

EVERY human has this gene in their DNA, and it always triple repeats.

so, a basic diagram would be something like this:

                        C              A               G                T
                        C              A               G
                        C              A               G
                        C              A               G
See how the C A G starts repeating? In every human it does this inside their DNA,
and does so up to a count of 30 times or LESS.
In people that have Huntingtons, the triple repeat count goes higher.
Then there is a grey area for some people from a repeat count of 30 to 36, and those people whom counts fall in that area, it is still not certain if they will develop the disease or not.
For those that it repeats more then 36 times all the way up to 120 times, are those whom are diagnosed as having the disease.

So, when a person goes in for the DNA blood test, those lab workers study the HD gene located in the DNA, and they start counting how many times they see the C A G repeat itself. Several lab workers do this counting, and later compare their count numbers, to the others, to help lessen the chances of human error, ect.

Their findings are combined, and then test results are sent back to the Doctor that ordered the test, for him/her to share the results with the patient.

so, in conclusion:
 
                    a  C A G  triple repeat count of:
                     1 to 30     = normal person without disease
                     30 to 36   = gray area (not certain if person has disease or not)
                     36 to 120 = person diagnosed with the disease.

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