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RE: When does BDSM become unhealthy or destructive - 7/2/2008 10:44:54 PM   
Amaros


Posts: 1363
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Status: offline 		It really quite simple, we simply can't have people cutting themselve into pieces and sending them through the mail for other people to eat, if you want to do that sort of thing, get a room.

(in reply to DominantJenny)
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RE: When does BDSM become unhealthy or destructive - 7/3/2008 12:52:16 AM   
Owner4SexSlave


Posts: 1311
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Status: offline 		Is the Fat Lady Ever Going to sing on this thread, or has somebody turned her into week long family meal plan?  

(in reply to Amaros)
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RE: When does BDSM become unhealthy or destructive - 7/3/2008 12:39:03 PM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Isolation

quote:

ORIGINAL: StrangerinBlack

No one is trying to stop you from hurting yourself here, but the desire to actually experience HARM (not pain), is not healthy and any rationalizations to the contrary can not change this.


Where do you draw the line between this and Boxing?

One need only look at Muhammed Ali to see the results of engaging in this sport.

And no one could argue that any boxer walks into the ring with a reasonable expectation that he will not be harmed in any way.

Indeed, the purpose is to deal out more harm than one receives.

So where do you draw the line?


I think the line for me would be drawn at cutting off someone's fingers and cooking them up with some farve beans and a nice Chianti.  Jesus, have you actually read this thread?  How in God's name can you possibly draw that analogy?

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RE: When does BDSM become unhealthy or destructive - 7/3/2008 12:53:04 PM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: hisannabelle

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife
Yes, if I go skydiving I am taking the risk of an injury in pursuit of an adrelanine rush.  There is a big difference between doing an activity with the possibility of injury and purposely injuring yourself to provide that same adrenaline rush. 

As socially liberal as I like to think I am, YES there ARE absolutes.  To say there are not is to open the door to justify and rationalize any behavior based on one's own perceptions.


PS:  "particularly if the subject is alive"????????????????
"our own cultural distaste for cannibalism is just that - cultural conditioning"????????????
Do I really need to point out how insane this is? 


you failed to acknowledge the argument about body modification. sorry, i don't see how my getting my genitals tattooed or a man having metal balls inserted in his or any other number of body modifications, from the bland to the extreme (and i'm sorry, but there are some that i would personally consider no less extreme than losing a finger), is all that different from what we're discussing in this thread. the issue is permanent harm, which is impossible to measure, and as i've pointed out, extremely subject to culture.

"particularly if the subject was alive" is a JOKE. seriously. i know my sense of humor is out there, but ya allah. some people here need to use smaller butt plugs.

and i'm sorry, but our distaste for cannibalism IS cultural conditioning. there are societies that have considered cannibalism - at least in terms of eating the naturally dead - not all that out there or such a horrible crime against humanity. the idea that it's so beyond the pale is part of our own cultural framework. i don't see how acknowledging the fact that western culture is not defaulting culturelessness but simply another cultural framework in and of itself, amongst many, is so insane.

respectfully,
a'ishah.


Ok, I didn't get the joke the first time around.

However, permanent harm is far from impossible to measure.  My getting a genital piercing hardly equates to having myself castrated. 

I'm not even going to continue this debate about cannabilism, because if you really don't see how crazy this is nothing I say will make a difference.

(in reply to hisannabelle)
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RE: When does BDSM become unhealthy or destructive - 7/3/2008 2:25:09 PM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: hisannabelle

quote:

The Jews, by all accounts went peacefully into the trains, and subsequently, into the showers, was it consensual? You think they couldn't smell the ovens?


you're seriously bringing up a case of mass genocide in a post on assisted suicide? really? that's beyond irrelevant. wanting to die because of suffering debilitating pain (or any other reason) is a teensy bit different from knowing that no matter what you do, resist or not, you are likely going to be murdered, or if not tortured, given the fact that everyone around you is being killed for being like you.

disgustedly,
a'ishah.


Ummmmmmmm, isn't assisted suicide "a teensy bit different" from the subject of this post, or didn't you bother reading back that far?

(in reply to hisannabelle)
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RE: When does BDSM become unhealthy or destructive - 7/3/2008 2:30:56 PM   
hisannabelle


Posts: 1992
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From: Tallahassee, FL, USA
Status: offline 		the rest of the post i quoted by amaros was on assisted suicide - or did you not bother to read it?

a'ishah.

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RE: When does BDSM become unhealthy or destructive - 7/3/2008 2:56:08 PM   
rulemylife


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Anyways, this thread is a bit of a mind blower for anybody to think about.   We all like to engage in conversation at times about dark twisted things.   A sort of Love/Hate relationship we have for certain topics.   I'm pretty certain everybody has explored at one point in time the thoughts about eating somebody else.   These type of thoughts are what shape our own limits, ethics and morals.   At times we role play things out in fantasy inside our minds.   At times, some of us piss ourselves silly the very moment we start to engage in these type of fantasy, and pull back in fear of loosing our soul to the dark primal side.
[/quote]

No, trust me, I've never at any point had thoughts about eating someone else. 
"Everybody has explored at one point in time the thoughts about eating somebody else"? 
Really? 
OK
If you say so.
Am I the only one who thinks this thread has taken a turn into the Twilight Zone?

(in reply to Owner4SexSlave)
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RE: When does BDSM become unhealthy or destructive - 7/3/2008 2:59:59 PM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: hisannabelle

the rest of the post i quoted by amaros was on assisted suicide - or did you not bother to read it?

a'ishah.


Yes I did, and it has nothing to do with the subject of the thread. 

(in reply to hisannabelle)
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RE: When does BDSM become unhealthy or destructive - 7/3/2008 3:23:41 PM   
Owner4SexSlave


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quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife
Anyways, this thread is a bit of a mind blower for anybody to think about.   We all like to engage in conversation at times about dark twisted things.   A sort of Love/Hate relationship we have for certain topics.   I'm pretty certain everybody has explored at one point in time the thoughts about eating somebody else.   These type of thoughts are what shape our own limits, ethics and morals.   At times we role play things out in fantasy inside our minds.   At times, some of us piss ourselves silly the very moment we start to engage in these type of fantasy, and pull back in fear of loosing our soul to the dark primal side.


No, trust me, I've never at any point had thoughts about eating someone else. 
"Everybody has explored at one point in time the thoughts about eating somebody else"? 
Really? 
OK
If you say so.
Am I the only one who thinks this thread has taken a turn into the Twilight Zone?


Well, I'm certain you thought about it whenever this topic has come up!  When I said thinking about Eating somebody.  Beware, I'm not talking about having enjoyable thoughts about it.    The context is in terms of thinking about it.   You're assuming I might somebody having Thoughts with the Desire of eating somebody.  You are sadly mistaken for what I was expressing.    The thoughts about Cannalblism and how it relates to you.    I'm certain everything has thought about this topic or subject at some point in time in their life.   I'm not talking about thinking about it with the desire of it either.   J

ust that one will only think about it so long, or so far in thought.  Immediately turn or shun away the thoughts of thinking about it anymore.   That's all part of what being Squicked out really means. 

(in reply to rulemylife)
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RE: When does BDSM become unhealthy or destructive - 7/3/2008 3:38:11 PM   
Ozzfan1317


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quote:

ORIGINAL: laura2161

Wanting to cut off one's own body parts for another person to eat has nothing to do with bdsm. (at least in my own lil bubble) While they may  also have been in a Ms dynamic, that type of behaviour is outside of the bdsm realm.  (and yes I'm being judgemental. Just because I engage in bondage, or masochism, etc does not mean I am accepting of everything under the sun)

The case you described is beyond insane to me, So yea I think it was very unhealthy...but nothing to do with 'this lifestyle


Yeah I have to agree I am very open minded but I draw thw line and self amputation and cannibalism it does nothing for me and honestly I dont think it is sane behavior.




(in reply to laura2161)
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RE: When does BDSM become unhealthy or destructive - 7/3/2008 3:41:14 PM   
knees2you


Posts: 2336
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Status: offline 		When the Pain never ever leaves.
 
Always, Ant

(in reply to Amaros)
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RE: When does BDSM become unhealthy or destructive - 7/3/2008 3:41:59 PM   
Ozzfan1317


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Joined: 5/13/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Amaros

It really quite simple, we simply can't have people cutting themselve into pieces and sending them through the mail for other people to eat, if you want to do that sort of thing, get a room.


Lmao This is so wrong...People like that need a room but its the kind with padded wallls...lol

(in reply to Amaros)
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RE: When does BDSM become unhealthy or destructive - 7/3/2008 5:49:21 PM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: hisannabelle

thank you for bringing this up al-aswad.


You're welcome, as always.

quote:

and i think in many ways this is more about taboos than permanent harm.


I would be inclined to agree with that. In fact, many of the responses in this thread can be seen as fairly strong evidence to support that conclusion, particularly in seeing the angle from which they approach the topic. We have covered some fairly difficult topics with relative ease here at times, while the mere mention of actual taboo topics tends to bring the house down.

quote:

even mental health labels themselves ARE changeable specifically BECAUSE they arise within a specific cultural context - they are NOT absolutes.


Well, there are some exceptions (mostly stuff where the aetiology is known), but in general spot on. Mental illnesses are the only recognized ones that are allowed to depend on others than the actual patient, which is arguably pretty insane in itself, colloquially speaking. In fact, if this activity was normal in our society, there would be a significant chance of being diagnosed with something for rejecting the practice.

I'm aware that a society that hopes to achieve some modicum of stability needs to intervene in individual liberty when the person poses a real and credible threat to bystanders (e.g. drunk driving), but beyond that I would say there's no requirement for the state to impose standards between consenting adults in order for it to be able to obtain stability and safety for its citizens. And as far as intervening in someone's life "for their own good" goes, that's fair enough, IMO, provided it is on an opt-in basis.

What good is a society that incrementally reduces us to the role of cells in the "body" of a hive?

Health,
al-Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to hisannabelle)
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RE: When does BDSM become unhealthy or destructive - 7/3/2008 5:54:35 PM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

Hey Hannibal, maybe you should stop encouraging someone who is obviously deeply troubled before she does some real damage to herself.


You obviously underestimate her, or overestimate my influence on her. My approval most likely doesn't mean a flying fig to her. If you wish to persuade anyone that your point of view has any merit to it, I would suggest doing so with actual arguments, not simple name-calling. While I just note that it's irrelevant to what you're saying, I have seen it cause people to close their ears to what is said, and that is counterproductive if you actually do have something to say.

Health,
al-Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to rulemylife)
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RE: When does BDSM become unhealthy or destructive - 7/3/2008 6:09:33 PM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterHermes

The issue is the involvement of a second party.


Actually, you're dead wrong here.

The second party is the party making a decision that they should (IMO) have the right to make. The first party is carrying out what the second party has decided. In that, you have a situation that is little different from if the second party were to do it themselves (in fact, inthe OPs example case, the second party was doing it themselves). And you might want to look a bit closer as to the whole "influence" bit.

We are all influenced by events in our lives and the people around us. The extent varies, but the principle is the same. Some of the hypotheticals you mentioned are not merely influencing someone, but actual extortion. Obviously, if you hold a woman at gunpoint and tell her to blow you, that isn't consent, but rape. Sure, she could take the bullet instead, but that choice is a fair bit beyond merely being influenced in a direction: it's extortion. And extortion with violent means to obtain sex is one of the things we call rape.

And in interpersonal relationships, we are influenced by love, which many consider the highest aspiration of human endeavours. As such, it seems ludicrous to posit that love is an invalid motivation for sacrifice. For that matter, due to the nature of the process of acquiring language, which takes place at a preconventional stage of moral development, the entire foundation of human verbal communication rests on the characteristic of using words to elicit a predicted response. In effect, the payload is a response, not information. "Manipulation" and "influence" are words used to describe a situation where the response elicited, or the motives for eliciting it, are considered unwelcome by the recipient, or by societal norms.

In short, influence is irrelevant. Extortion is not.

Health,
al-Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to MasterHermes)
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RE: When does BDSM become unhealthy or destructive - 7/3/2008 6:20:20 PM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Isolation

Where do you draw the line between this and Boxing?


Best example I have seen so far. A serious boxer is a killer. The objective is to inflict massive trauma to the brain, while the rest is just wearing the opponent down to get better access. And all boxers that stick with it will acquire pugilistic dementia at the very least, and quite frequently (IIRC) retinal detachment.

This example in fact illustrates perfectly the "cultural taboo" aspect of things.

If you go to a mental health professional and say "I've just consented to having my love bash my head on a regular basis so I can develop brain damage, and in return I get to do the same to her. We train a lot to get better at inflicting more damage in less time. It really gets our adrenaline going, and people pay to see it, too!" then I imagine the poor chap is going to seriously consider locking you both up.

If you instead say "I've taken up boxing. I really like it, and the money's good," they won't bat a lash.

The differences between these two can be summarized very simply: (a) the agent in one case loves you and you both get mutual satisfaction from it, while the boxers don't love each other, and (b) boxing is a sport that is accepted in our culture, despite its proven grievous harm to the participants, and is in fact rather highly thought of as a sport by many.

It can't get much clearer that the culturally assigned value of the two is the real difference.

Thanks, B.

Health,
al-Aswad.



_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to Isolation)
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RE: When does BDSM become unhealthy or destructive - 7/3/2008 6:23:56 PM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: StrangerinBlack

I'm sorry, are you trying to say that the reason people box is becuase they DESIRE to be harmed? Or is the damage a natural result of their activity?


Actually, the desire to fight (a natural instinct in men) is probably a part of the motivation. And the damage is an inevitable result. Would you say that cannibalism is mentally healthy if the damage inflicted is considered a regrettable result, rather than an intrinsic part of the attraction?

If you do, then you've just given most who want to (or have) engage(d) in it a clean bill of mental health.

If you don't, then your argument needs to be revisited.

Terse enough this time?

Health,
al-Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to StrangerinBlack)
Profile   Post #: 317
RE: When does BDSM become unhealthy or destructive - 7/3/2008 6:36:24 PM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble

Taking the accident of bread and wine as the body and blood in Eucharist, which many believe was a foretelling of the cruxifiction, is a sacrament to this day yet .. no one blinks an eye at the symbolism.


In fact, the symbolism is exactly the same as in New Guinea, for instance: by eating the deceased, you take a part of them into yourself, literally and figuratively. It is also a sign of great respect for a slain enemy when a warrior eats his heart, signifying that the heart of the opponent (again, literally and figuratively) is of such merit that one accepts it into oneself. Hardly something one would do to an opponent that one did not respect (unless one subscribes to the notion of an afterlife and the notion that eating the heart consumes the soul and, hence, constitutes the utter destruction of a despised enemy).

Heck, the Eucharist itself may well be Jesus' tribute to others. Bear in mind that the Jews were in the desert for a long time, had little to eat (apart from the hallucinogenic they knew as manna, hardly adequate sustenance) and lost many people. They'd wake up each day to find someone missing. Not exactly something they would want to recall too vividly, so it would actually be a testament to Jesus' credibility to say that he was remembering those whose sacrifice allowed the tribes to survive, as he shouldn't have known that. It may also be thumbing his nose at the priests, ala "I know your dirty little secret," but that's a digression.

Either way, the essence of cannibalism is very much alive and well in the Catholic church.

Health,
al-Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to BitaTruble)
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RE: When does BDSM become unhealthy or destructive - 7/3/2008 6:41:24 PM   
CallaFirestormBW


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

Either way, the essence of cannibalism is very much alive and well in the Catholic church.

Health,
al-Aswad.



May you grok in fullness. *wicked grin*

Firestorm


_____________________________

***
Said to me recently: "Look, I know you're the "voice of reason"... but dammit, I LIKE being unreasonable!!!!"

"Your mind is more interested in the challenge of becoming than the challenge of doing." Jon Benson, Bodybuilder/Trainer

(in reply to Aswad)
Profile   Post #: 319
RE: When does BDSM become unhealthy or destructive - 7/3/2008 6:58:58 PM   
fluffyswitch


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From: Buffalo
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: CallaFirestormBW

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

Either way, the essence of cannibalism is very much alive and well in the Catholic church.

Health,
al-Aswad.



May you grok in fullness. *wicked grin*

Firestorm



i cannot grok in fullness yet as i am but an egg!!!

damn i feel like a geek now...


_____________________________


“Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue that counts.” churchill

the first rule of fluff club is that you don't talk about fluff club!

(in reply to CallaFirestormBW)
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