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msprudence -> A Question for Dominant Men (7/21/2008 5:50:36 PM)

Apparently I am missing some kind of magic word.  I have a space which has adult toys and apparatus in it I will be offering to those who wish to use it  (yes, I get paid for this).  I know there isn't anything public like my space for at least 500 miles in most directions, so I give some leeway.  But I have to cover my ass. Before I let someone reserve the space, I ask questions like "Is everyone over 21" and "Will all acts be consentual?"

The response:  "None of your business."  or "I'll do what I want to do."

How do I get the idea across that it is my business, literally... because when a 16 year girl files a complaint of rape and sodomy, I won't have a business anymore when she testifies that it happened on my property with my equipment? 



Asmodeus -> RE: A Question for Dominant Men (7/21/2008 5:53:20 PM)

Having dealt with this particular issue for a number of venues I simply require that all persons availing themselves of the venue provide ID and sign a ""hold harmless" agreement (which may not do much in court, but it does establish that the provider of the space is not responsible for actions taken within).

ETA: And if they say "no" it's just part of doing business.



polygirl50 -> RE: A Question for Dominant Men (7/21/2008 5:54:04 PM)

before letting them in, have them both sign a release.



Exquemelin -> RE: A Question for Dominant Men (7/21/2008 6:01:59 PM)

Yes I agree, institute a policy requiring ID for all participants, require dungeon rules where if they're not followed the person will not be allowed back in, and have all participants sign a release. Consult a lawyer if you must, in fact you probably should consult an attorney. There's probably a kink friendly lawyer somewhere nearby. 



msprudence -> RE: A Question for Dominant Men (7/21/2008 6:10:37 PM)

I have a waiver that people can sign, one which no one will ever see without a supaeana or warrent.  But the initial emails start this way. 

Mostly it's folks who are "in character."   I just wish there was an easier way to express that you can be in control and be legal.



DomDolf -> RE: A Question for Dominant Men (7/21/2008 6:21:55 PM)

It's been said but I feel that it needs emphasis. Get an attorney. I own my business and it is one of the first things I did. I also needed an accountant so I found someone that does both and saved a few dollars as a result. You should make sure you are legally covered and insured for the sort of business you run. There are plenty of people that run similar businesses. Find them and ask them. Don't ask your competitor if there are any. The competitors have their own interests to protect and may not be completely open. Take all questions derived from conversations with the people in the know and ask and expect direct answers to every question or concern. If you have doubts get a second opinion.

Dolf



msprudence -> RE: A Question for Dominant Men (7/21/2008 6:38:44 PM)

My Attorney and My Accountant are both fabulous.  Very good advice.

Now do you have anyway for me to convey to Dominant men who want to retain their "Top" position, while still making certain they understand that I have to follow the laws of my state?

Currently in my inbox:

The guy who wants to bring in his Sub, gagged and bound.  When I explain that I can't allow them both into the space until SHE has assured me she is over 21 and there legally, he tells me I'm ruining the scene.

The guy who wants Daddy-Daughter play, who doesn't feel he should have to prove she's over 21. (His "friend" is 19.)

and more.

At this point, none of them will get to use my space, becuase I don't trust them.  I feel badly, but not badly enough to risk losing what I'm building.



RedMagic1 -> RE: A Question for Dominant Men (7/21/2008 6:51:30 PM)

Maybe have a human being with a penis tell them the exact same thing?

Unfortunately, a serious answer.



Misstoyou -> RE: A Question for Dominant Men (7/21/2008 6:52:49 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: msprudence

My Attorney and My Accountant are both fabulous. Very good advice.

Now do you have anyway for me to convey to Dominant men who want to retain their "Top" position, while still making certain they understand that I have to follow the laws of my state? ... [when] he tells me I'm ruining the scene.



I understand what you're saying. When they resist, I think I would use a simple direct response: "Fine. Then get a hotel room." [:D]



LadyHibiscus -> RE: A Question for Dominant Men (7/21/2008 6:55:18 PM)

You CAN screen everyone first, meet them, have them sign a release, then they can do their scene as desired.  I would not run an in an out establishment unless perhaps I was in Nevada.  It's a world of flakes and loonies, why encourage them?



SunnyTawse -> RE: A Question for Dominant Men (7/21/2008 7:03:16 PM)

Check with the recommended attorney, but it's my impression if you screen them you actually incur greater liability by giving the impression that you've, well, screened them.

Have the person who's making the arrangements warrent in writing that all parties are over 21, that all acts will be consentual, etc., and that he or she will hold you harmless in the case of injury or arrest.

Sunny

http://AthenorLodge.com



DomDolf -> RE: A Question for Dominant Men (7/21/2008 7:18:54 PM)

Tell the guy that he needs to be more creative and use the documentation as part of the scene or they must come in beforehand and sign all necessary documents and provide ID. Make sure the DL or ID you check is verified to be the exact same ID and the person is the same also. That's the only options. Take it or leave it. You're not running a scene you are running a business that is subject to the law. Of course if you are uncomfortable with it then you don't have to do business with them. The guy with the 19 year old should look for another place. He has rules for his submissive and he must follow rules also. It's a fact of life.

Dolf



CruelDesires -> RE: A Question for Dominant Men (7/21/2008 7:28:06 PM)

Are facsimile's legal documents in your state? Can release forms be signed and faxed/emailed back to you so that all you need is a proof of age/ID before they enter your playspace? Might be something worth looking into.

CD



Evility -> RE: A Question for Dominant Men (7/21/2008 7:56:20 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: msprudence
Currently in my inbox:

The guy who wants to bring in his Sub, gagged and bound.  When I explain that I can't allow them both into the space until SHE has assured me she is over 21 and there legally, he tells me I'm ruining the scene.

The guy who wants Daddy-Daughter play, who doesn't feel he should have to prove she's over 21. (His "friend" is 19.)


You cannot make people respond and react a certain way. Make the rules you must have in place. State them. If they start giving you flack re-state the rules once more. If they still persist end the discussion. Certainly being the only dungeon space in a five hundred mile radius has to afford you some clout. Use it.



TroyCouple -> RE: A Question for Dominant Men (7/21/2008 8:26:57 PM)

It's quite simple.  It's YOUR business.  So what if it "ruins" their scene.  They can find another place to do their scene if they don't like it.  You have legal requirements that must be fulfilled. 

During the Dungeon Monitor training I went through, it was emphasized, it didn't matter if you were a top, bottom, submissive, slave or anything, your word was law.  Any top that disagreed could take it up with the owner of the establishment.  And if the owner disagreed, he would toss them out, no problem. 

And while it hasn't happened to me, other DMs have reported cases where tops would say, "well I do this at home" and the owner has basically said, "that's fine, you can go home and do it." 

Oh and depending on where you are, you may want to get friendly with the local police.  If they know what's going on upfront they can be your biggest asset.  (on the other hand if you're in a town with a small-minded DA and police force, it's possible they'll be your biggest liability.  On the gripping hand, you may find a cop or two among your best customers. :-)

But I agree with the others, get an attorny and protect your assets.  And remember, it's your space, your rules.  If they don't like it, they can create their own.



proudsub -> RE: A Question for Dominant Men (7/21/2008 8:28:00 PM)

Since you are making this a business you had better be sure it's legal where you live, get a business license and pay taxes.



VeryHighHeels -> RE: A Question for Dominant Men (7/22/2008 2:50:19 AM)

It sounds to me like you are a very nice person -- too nice to turn someone down. And, of course, when someone is at your door, it apparently means that you and they have made an awful lot of preparations to get to this point, and you don't want to turn them away.

But there are two reasons you should be extra vigilant about your dungeon. First, all users should meet minimum legal requirements (age, consent, etc.). But secondly, if something does go awry, it won't matter too much who signed what. You will be uncovered as a sick promoter of a disgusting lifestyle -- at least to the uninitiated, which means people like the media and the cops.

So I would carefully screen all participants and realize what a risk you are taking for them. Just try to imagine what it would be like if you had to defend your actions in open court or, worse, the court of public opinion. You --- not them -- would be a purveyor of filth with a diseased mind. That's how people think when something like this comes up. So be very careful.





BrokenSaint -> RE: A Question for Dominant Men (7/22/2008 4:22:18 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: msprudence

Apparently I am missing some kind of magic word.  I have a space which has adult toys and apparatus in it I will be offering to those who wish to use it  (yes, I get paid for this).  I know there isn't anything public like my space for at least 500 miles in most directions, so I give some leeway.  But I have to cover my ass. Before I let someone reserve the space, I ask questions like "Is everyone over 21" and "Will all acts be consentual?"

The response:  "None of your business."  or "I'll do what I want to do."

How do I get the idea across that it is my business, literally... because when a 16 year girl files a complaint of rape and sodomy, I won't have a business anymore when she testifies that it happened on my property with my equipment? 


Tell them just that. If they don't want to behave and play by the rules that you have set down, then they can go play somewhere else. Being a dominant is not an excuse to be an assclown on someone elses territory. Not only are you setting the legal requirements, for your protection, as well as for the protection of others, but you're providing them with a place to play. That means your rules. Not theirs.



Asmodeus -> RE: A Question for Dominant Men (7/22/2008 6:05:48 AM)

Running it like a business is the key.  Talk to your lawyer and accountant and value their advice.

As to dealing with people to whom stopping and providing ID will imapct their scene, just tell them all they need to do is come by in advance of their scheduled scene, fill out the paperwork, and go on their way.  There's no requirement that they handle the business end of it at the same time they choose to play.  You can even get paid in advance ;)



DarkSteven -> RE: A Question for Dominant Men (7/22/2008 6:46:56 AM)

You're lucky that these jerks are honest.  If someone lied to you and then the cops found out that there was a seventeen year old playing in your space, you'd be in deep trouble.

Require all players to show ID that they are of legal age, every time they enter.
Require signed releases from all, first time, and keep them on file.
Make sure no activities take place that require a license.  Denver's Labyrinth got shut down due to piercing taking place with no license.

If anyone whines, agree with them that your space is not ideal for them and wish them best of luck,



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