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Anger in endings and abusive actions - 7/25/2008 7:05:06 PM   
awakenednj


Posts: 657
Joined: 2/10/2008
Status: offline 		Hi everybody. Haven't been posting much, but have been reading. I just havent had anything to say :) I just read a thread on Ask a Submissive about moving past hurt and anger in which a lot of attention was given to an abusive action. And while I agree with the concensus of hitting in anger = abuse...

This whole thread has touched on something I have thought on several times in the last six months. Something that worries me a great deal. Master hits me. He does it carefully, with no anger, with skill, with all the things that makes it loving instead of abusive. Once thing I have not let go of yet.. the "Can this be real - please god don't let it stop" fear of ending. He called that the unavoidable question of every lost soul - just as they are found. My past relationships have all ended badly and I fear the end of this one... be it next week or 10 years from now... Because I fear it, I think on it, analyze it, worry over it. He is gently bringing me away from this fear.. but it is not yet gone.

I have often thought that I would snap if he ended things. That my reaction to that would be to want to hurt him (as any ending might inspire).. but that because of the nature of the relationship something in me might think it was OK... that for that moment I would justify  this to myself.. that because he had delivered pain to me that under such duress it would give me an excuse to hit him.

My logic and ethics know that this is 100% wrong... but... does it happen? Does the ending of a relationship that included caring strikes end more often with actual violence than those without it? Can the pain of a Master leaving snap the mind?

I hope this is making sense. I would love to hear any thoughts that are out there.

< Message edited by awakenednj -- 7/25/2008 7:13:28 PM >
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RE: No. hitting in anger is NOT ok, but... - 7/25/2008 7:20:53 PM   
Lumus


Posts: 5968
Joined: 9/16/2007
Status: offline 		Makes sense.  Sadly, the answer's gonna be subjective if it's going to be real - after all, it depends on the mind in question, regardless of its state.

My last vanilla ex ran off with our child while I was out visiting family.  There were accusations of abuse [mental, not physical, and yet quite uncomplimentary given she was very aware of my past and predilections].  It got uglier, and since then it's settled into an uneasy truce kept stable by a lot of silence.  One of my friends stated after the fact that he was surprised I didn't slap her for all the hell that happened.  I can't say for sure why I didn't lash out, but I gather the answer's further in my past with an older relationship that was strikingly similar in certain ways.

I wouldn't have liked myself if I had slapped her, and odds are I wouldn't have the visitation I have now.  Did she hurt me?  Oh, hell, yes.  Is a moment of complete self-indulgence its own justification?  Hell, no.  Does it happen anyways?  Sure, when the mind is overridden by powerful emotional responses.

Specifically referring to BDSM relationships, I've not had one end with physical violence, no - angry words, nothing more.  That doesn't mean it doesn't happen, it's very conceivable; all the training and self-discipline in the world isn't going to stop a tidal wave of unexpected emotions from startling even the most jaded soul.

*hugs* Hang in there, awakened.  If trust were that easy, it wouldn't be worth the value you put on it, neh?


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<Talk to educate; listen to learn.>

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I have been dubbed the Rainmaker. Do not make me take your water for my tribe.

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RE: No. hitting in anger is NOT ok, but... - 7/25/2008 7:36:26 PM   
katie978


Posts: 352
Joined: 7/21/2007
Status: offline 		  I think everyone fears eventual break-up. However, just like with any fear, you can't let it rule your life.
Eventually, your relationship will end, whether by break-up or eventual death. There's not point in worrying about it...apprehension and fear will sour all the good times that you have in the relationship. Just like you can't live your life in fear of eventual death, so too must you "carpe diem" in your love life.

However, your main question appears to be whether you can justify hitting a dom in anger because he hits you in pleasure. Obviously this is logically wrong in many ways. Ethically, also. You ask whether you could still get confused in the heat of the moment.

  To be honest, the hitting that takes place in the bedroom is so far removed from physical abuse that they don't even compute for me. I'd be as likely to hit my master if we broke up as I would be to give him a blowjob.

To me, it sounds like you begrudge him the pain he causes you. In some fashion, you equate the erotic pain with the pain of abuse.

  As far as fear of hitting him when you break up, I guess that depends on how you behave when you're hurt. I behave with more sadness than anger...I rarely hit things in anger and have never lashed out against a person. If you do react with anger, and you have trouble containing it, then you may lash out. If that's a real fear for you, you should perhaps seek anger management techniques.

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RE: No. hitting in anger is NOT ok, but... - 7/25/2008 7:41:30 PM   
StrongSpirit


Posts: 575
Joined: 4/10/2005
Status: offline 		Relationships turn ugly when one of three things happen:

1.  Someone lies and gets caught.
2.  You try to maintain a relationship after one person has ceased to care about the other.
3.   One person refuses to maintain a dieing relationship while the other person won't let go. 

In general, people in a BDSM relationship are more honest.  You are less likely to lie when you can outright say "I want a threesome with your friend" and not start a fight.
The other two factors are no more or less likely to happen in a BDSM relationship than in a vanilla one.

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RE: No. hitting in anger is NOT ok, but... - 7/25/2008 7:51:24 PM   
awakenednj


Posts: 657
Joined: 2/10/2008
Status: offline 		Lumus- you're dead-on about the trust. Just when I think I trust him completely I find myself flinching at something...

Katie- No, not looking to justify at all. And no, I do not begrudge him the pain, i am sorry if I sounded that way. (Begrudge it? If I begrudge anything it's him stopping because his arm is tired!) But your answer did get to the heart of my question... that it would be so far removed that you'd be as likely to hit him as blow him.

StrongSpirit- Your right. I guess my fear would really be centered in item #3.

< Message edited by awakenednj -- 7/25/2008 7:52:16 PM >

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RE: No. hitting in anger is NOT ok, but... - 7/25/2008 8:41:13 PM   
StrongSpirit


Posts: 575
Joined: 4/10/2005
Status: offline 		You are worried that he will cease to care about you while you still feel for him.   That means the relationship ends, but not necessarily that it will turn ugly.

For it to turn ugly, you would have to refuse to let it end.  The problem you are really concerned about is in your own mind, not the relationship.  You've said it has happened before, so I suspect it is a real issue, not a false concern. 

I would advise you find a kink-friendly therapist and discuss your problem with them.



< Message edited by StrongSpirit -- 7/25/2008 8:42:06 PM >

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RE: No. hitting in anger is NOT ok, but... - 7/25/2008 8:48:59 PM   
MissSCD


Posts: 1185
Joined: 3/10/2007
Status: offline 		It sounds to me like you have issues with two or three things in the past.  I undertand your delimia with hitting in anger.   In my marriage, I was verbally and physically abused.   I don't trust as easily as I used to trust.  
You are angry with this other friend.  You have the right to stand up for your feelings to her as long as you don't result to violence.  That will get you in jail.
For your own good, I would keep a journal.   You need to work your feelings out. 
I believe you fear this relationship will end also.
Good luck to you, and don't be so  hard on yourself.  Everything will be ok.
 
Regards, MissSCD

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RE: No. hitting in anger is NOT ok, but... - 7/25/2008 10:16:45 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline 		A) There was no consensus- many people enjoy playing in anger all the time and find no abuse in it.

B)  It's a very rare person who knows what they would really do if things really went crabbed- and an even rarer person who accepts that it might not be the most honorable behavior.

Either way, living in fear does no one any good.  That doesn't mean you need the fear to disappear, simply that you do not let it be in control of who you are and what you choose.

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RE: No. hitting in anger is NOT ok, but... - 7/25/2008 10:18:35 PM   
DesFIP


Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline 		I don't believe that any really good and strong relationship ends suddenly with no warning. I do believe that people want to deny reality and pretend to themselves that things are still wonderful.

I don't know if someone who is so adept at lying to themselves would be more able to lie to themselves about it being right to hurt someone, to intend to harm and injure. Would be more able to not try to act like an adult.

I do think that if things go bad in the relationship and you acknowledge it, try to talk to him about it, address your concerns that you are then being mature and that an honest and mature person is less likely to resort to violence when they can't have what they want.

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RE: Anger in endings and abusive actions - 7/25/2008 10:21:08 PM   
SurrenderForMe


Posts: 229
Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline 		Do subs or slaves or anyone for that matter strike out physically when a relationship ends, sometimes.  I've seen it in all walks of life,.  Thankfully for me, it has not been common.

I am a dominant.  I have had one relationship end with violence.  Really, really, bad, emotional breakup, agreed to by both.  My almost ex slave hauls back and punches me.  I haul back and punched her.  I didn't even realize it until afterward.  Then we froze.

I don't hit anyone in anger, in scene or out.  I prefer my violence in context.  I will never allow anyone to hit me.  I will always defend myself if someone attacks me or even if it is a stranger attacking someone who looks weaker.  I never hit first.  I have been chastised for my foolishness in worrying about strangers.

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RE: Anger in endings and abusive actions - 7/26/2008 10:27:17 AM   
LATEXBABY64


Posts: 2107
Joined: 4/8/2004
Status: offline 		oh yes the throw away culture i forget which period of time we are in  lol

everyone always wants to over anaylize everything   just simple fact some people do not get good things in life there to much about them not about being we thing  shrugs   I guess the best thing is just when you run into a rotten egg  throw it in trash and move on to bigger better things remeber no two people are a like just because you had a bad one this time does not mean the next one will be  it is all about the odds yep keep them in your favor always 

     example someone with your ideals on everything life the moral firber of humanity civility and compassion   those  things seem to be lacking these days   find a good role model  look at how they approch things  it works in business

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RE: Anger in endings and abusive actions - 7/26/2008 10:50:29 AM   
CreativeDominant


Posts: 11032
Joined: 3/11/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LATEXBABY64

oh yes the throw away culture i forget which period of time we are in  lol

everyone always wants to over anaylize everything   just simple fact some people do not get good things in life there to much about them not about being we thing  shrugs   I guess the best thing is just when you run into a rotten egg  throw it in trash and move on to bigger better things remeber no two people are a like just because you had a bad one this time does not mean the next one will be  it is all about the odds yep keep them in your favor always 

    example someone with your ideals on everything life the moral firber of humanity civility and compassion   those  things seem to be lacking these days   find a good role model  look at how they approch things  it works in business


Yanno, Latex...your paragraphs above are a mass of contradictions.  You chide the throwaway nature of today's society and yet chide what you call over-analysis.

I've stated on here before and I tell those who I allow into my life that above everything else, I expect them to abide by a standard of fairness.  To me, that means that if they have cared for me, then they owe it to me to at least respect what I told them in the beginning about ending things...I expect answers at the end.  I understand about not hanging on to a dying relationship but too many want to walk away without ending it in a proper manner.  Now, people say that is just human nature...we don't like to deal with unpleasant things.  That may well be true...but isn't part of being grown-up and accepting of personal responsibility a realization that life is not always pleasant?  And that while life itself may be unfair and people you don't know and don't have any right to expect something from may be unfair, should you not try to be...and expect in reverse...fair with those you have professed to care about, even if that caring is not there any longer?  Should you not be fair with those you have claimed to respect, even if that respect has diminished?

No one can know how they will react when they run into a situation that is entirely new to them...but I suspect most of us have dealt with break-ups before.  The circumstances surrounding it may be different than what we have dealt with but the emotions involved are not entirely new.  If we have done as we should as humans and evolved, then I believe we should at least have a semblance of an idea of how we would react to even a mild level of pain and hurt (newly beginning/newly explored relationships) all the way up to a deep and abiding level of pain and heartbreak.  Expecting or thinking that there will be no anger is naive, in my opinion.  How you deal with that anger is up to you.  My therapist told me a long time ago that while someone else may be responsible for creating feelings within you, it is what you do with those feelings that is YOUR responsibility.  There is nothing wrong with anger but...will you be an adult, thinking human...or will you let your baser, sometimes more-childish instincts take over?

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RE: Anger in endings and abusive actions - 7/26/2008 12:00:41 PM   
LATEXBABY64


Posts: 2107
Joined: 4/8/2004
Status: offline 		there is a thing called set limits  or guidlines or rules  for living in everyday walks of who and what you are  those rules are adaptable to anything or problem

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RE: Anger in endings and abusive actions - 7/26/2008 12:21:39 PM   
lovingpet


Posts: 4270
Joined: 6/19/2005
Status: offline 		Why? 

Is he worth jail, fines, legal fee, and who knows what all else?

First of all, enjoy your relationship and work very hard on making it work and improving yourself as a person.  Maybe that way, regardless of the outcome, you will be able to accept your circumstances.  Next, we preach about trust and communication.  If you have been reading the boards, you know that.  Talk to him about your fears so he has a chance to build your trust more.  I wish you the best on your journey!

Wishes,
lovingpet  

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RE: Anger in endings and abusive actions - 7/26/2008 1:27:42 PM   
awakenednj


Posts: 657
Joined: 2/10/2008
Status: offline 		Thank you all for your responses!

Yes, the concern is in my own mind.. not the relationship. Kink friendly therapist would be nice but, I live in the backwoods boondocks of a state with no consent to abuse. Telling a therapist, they could decide that this qualifies for the clause that allows them to break confidentiality - and have him arrested. The state may or may not press charges even though I never would. The couple of friends I have tried to tell think I have lost my mind. The only one I can talk to any of this about is Sir... and well, all of you lovely cyberfolk :)

Miss CD- There was no other friend mentioned? I'm not angry with anyone at the moment. I do keep a journal, and that does help. I do fear this will end because all things end. And in my case... endings have always been bad things. Would like to clarify that i have NOT actually struck out at someone before except in self-protection. But I have felt the urge.

LA- maybe I generalized, but it did seem that many agreed that in this type of situation striking was inappropriate. My impression anyway...  It is hard giving up on the fears that I've held onto for so long. Hard, but necessary.

DesFip- I try very hard NOT to lie to myself, and if I discover I have been, to deal with whatever the issue is the best I can. I'm not perfect, but I am trying to grow :)

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RE: Anger in endings and abusive actions - 7/26/2008 2:06:25 PM   
awakenednj


Posts: 657
Joined: 2/10/2008
Status: offline 		Surrender- Thank you for sharing.

LatexBaby- IF I'm following you... yes, my fears (this one and every other one) come from how others have treated, not how he has treated me... and as he is different in so many ways it should follow that he would not act in the same ways. Toss away the old crap already, right?

CD- Maybe that's a big part of it. I have never had anyone end things in anything like the way you describe. The worst landed me in the hospital x-raying my head for fractures while 5-months pregnant with his child (who is georgeous and perfect despite everything!) The easiest still leaving me confused wondering why. But... being the man he is... he would be collected and responsible enough to bring even endings in a way that would build me, not break me... wouldnt he. hmmmmm.... that's something I hadn't thought (:::hugs you a bunch::: )

LovingPet- agreed. And I have talked about this and every other fear in my head with him. Maybe it's just the way I process information, but just hearing (reading) rational thoughts from others help me to see the irrationality in myself.

Soooo. all of you who are responding really are helping me. Maybe I do over-analyze. (My job is a contract analyst... hehe) But it's just my nature. So thank you each for helping me direct those thoughts toward the positive reality instead of the negative. ::laughs::: He does have the patience of a saint wading through all the mess in my head with me. Makes me *almost* think he sees something worth having in me... :)

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RE: Anger in endings and abusive actions - 7/26/2008 2:08:29 PM   
ChainedExistence


Posts: 507
Joined: 2/5/2005
Status: offline 		I don't know about other people, but I most often turned the hurt, anger, disappointment over the ending of a relationship inward, rather than outward at the other person. I've never gone after anyone who wronged me, so the thought of hitting the Dom wouldn't enter my mind. But I did relate to your fear of having the relationship end. Time is a greater healer, if both of you have the patience and understanding to get past that. Still the onus is on you to decide if you want to let all that fear baggage rob the relationship of your joy. I'm sure you've probably read that essay about people being in our lives for reason, a season, or a lifetime.(If not, check it out here-  Reason Season Lifetime ). So, if this doesn't turn out to be your "forever" relationship- the person is a part of what helps you define yourself all the more clearly. That doesn't mean you might not hurt if it ends..but why let that hurt get a head start?

< Message edited by ChainedExistence -- 7/26/2008 2:09:08 PM >

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RE: Anger in endings and abusive actions - 7/26/2008 3:46:19 PM   
LATEXBABY64


Posts: 2107
Joined: 4/8/2004
Status: offline 		I think you have to take each experince as a lesson in growth on what to do and not to do
you will know in  your gut right from wrong   no matter how great or good our gut is the greatest protection we have

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RE: Anger in endings and abusive actions - 7/26/2008 11:41:08 PM   
silkncarol


Posts: 318
Status: offline 		I think it goes back to treating the other person the way you'd want to be treated.......
I also try to take the high road when possible..i don't like carrying negative energy around...... it's self destructive in one way or another.....

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Shoes can change your life................. Cinderella

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RE: Anger in endings and abusive actions - 7/27/2008 7:31:30 AM   
Evility


Posts: 915
Joined: 12/19/2007
Status: offline 		Nobody enjoys it when a relationship ends but fearing the end of a happy relationship is not normal or healthy. It would be to your benefit to find out why you have these fears (if you do not already know the root cause) and to deal with them. I would have to know why if I was your partner. I've been there in a relationship with someone who had these sort of fears/concerns and they were unfounded in any relation to me. It was an obstacle from day one of the relationship and I feel it prevented us from building a solid foundation.

As far as physical violence being more common or even acceptable when a D/s type relationship ends... I don't know how common it is and it is never acceptable. The consent based physical activity that occurs in a D/s relationship is not domestic violence. Striking someone out of anger or hurt when said relationship ends is definitely domestic violence.



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