Bush Has a Good Economic Record (Full Version)

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celticlord2112 -> Bush Has a Good Economic Record (9/3/2008 5:06:11 PM)

Bush Has a Good Economic Record

Heresy, I know, but here are some stats:

quote:

- Economic growth. U.S. output has expanded faster than in most advanced economies since 2000. The IMF reports that real U.S. gross domestic product (GDP) grew at an average annual rate of 2.2% over the period 2001-2008 (including its forecast for the current year). President Bush will leave to his successor an economy 19% larger than the one he inherited from President Clinton. This U.S. expansion compares with 14% by France, 13% by Japan and just 8% by Italy and Germany over the same period.


quote:

Income and wealth distribution. The latest World Bank estimates show that the richest 20% of U.S. households had a 45.8% share of total income in 2000, similar to the levels in the U.K. (44.0%) and Israel (44.9%). In 65 other countries the richest quintile had a larger share than in the U.S.


quote:

- Employment. The U.S. employment rate, measured by the percentage of people of working age (16-65 years) in jobs, has remained high by international standards. The latest OECD figures show a rate of 71.7% in 2006. This was more than five percentage points above the average for the euro area.


quote:

The U.S. unemployment rate averaged 4.7% from 2001-2007. This compares with a 5.2% average rate during President Clinton's term of office, and is well below the euro zone average of 8.3% since 2000.


Are the International Monetary Fund (IMF), the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development (OECD), the World Bank, the International Comparison Program (ICP) (a cooperative venture coordinated by the World Bank) all part of the vast neo-con conspiracy?




kittinSol -> RE: Bush Has a Good Economic Record (9/3/2008 5:16:03 PM)

Another comic piece! . You're in fine form today [8D] .




celticlord2112 -> RE: Bush Has a Good Economic Record (9/3/2008 5:19:40 PM)

kittin, if you have data to refute the IMF and OECD, please share it.

you DO have some reason to disregard objective, non-partisan economic data, right?




dcnovice -> RE: Bush Has a Good Economic Record (9/3/2008 5:20:24 PM)

quote:

International Monetary Fund (IMF) ... the World Bank,


I have good friends at both the Fund and the Bank, and they have little respect for Bush's performance on the economy.




celticlord2112 -> RE: Bush Has a Good Economic Record (9/3/2008 5:25:46 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

International Monetary Fund (IMF) ... the World Bank,


I have good friends at both the Fund and the Bank, and they have little respect for Bush's performance on the economy.

Ok, and what rebuttal to the IMF and World Bank data did they give you?  What corrections to the IMF and World Bank data did they point out?

Having "a friend" in either institution is irrelevant.  Having some hard data would be very relevant.  Did the Wall Street Journal report erroneous data?




Jeffff -> RE: Bush Has a Good Economic Record (9/3/2008 5:28:52 PM)

 
While the economy has grown under the Bush administration, growth was below average in comparison to the average for business cycles between 1949 and 2000. Overall real GDP has grown at an average annual rate of 2.5%. Between 2001 and 2005, GDP growth was clocked at 2.8%, 1.6% below the average of 3.4%, while GDI (Gross Domestic Income) growth was 36% below average. The number of jobs created grew by only 6.5%, 28.5% below the average growth rate of 9.1%. The growth in average salaries was less than half as usual; 1.2% versus 2.7%, respectively. While growth in consumer spending was 72% faster than growth in income, it too has “failed to keep pace with the... average of previous cycles.”

Ok, your turn

Jeff




DarkSteven -> RE: Bush Has a Good Economic Record (9/3/2008 5:34:31 PM)

I don't know how much of the Bush economy OR the Clinton economy were real.

Clinton's presidency was a financial golden age.  However, I don't know how much was real and how much was due to the dot-com bubble artificially making the economy look better than it was.

The dot com bubble burst right about the time Bush took office.  However, the RE bubble took place under his watch to compensate.  The day of reckoning is getting frantically pushed back by Bush and Congress right now...




dcnovice -> RE: Bush Has a Good Economic Record (9/3/2008 5:37:26 PM)

CelticLord527 ---

My friends' work involves helping countries put their fiscal houses in order, so they tend to focus on something not mentioned in the WSJ article to which you linked. That's the fact that Bush inherited a surplus and is bequeathing his successor a deficit. IMF economists (if my friends are typical, and I reason to believe they are) see that as the polar opposite of progress.

Cheers,

DC




lronitulstahp -> RE: Bush Has a Good Economic Record (9/3/2008 5:40:10 PM)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_debt_by_U.S._presidential_terms 
We are overextended to foreign banks, have been for years now.  If the US had a credit score, it would be about 400.  Let's just say under Clinton it was 450...not a big difference, but a difference nonetheless.  The GDP up by 2% doesn't completely offset the national debt problem.  For every one study showing an upwards trend in the economy...there will likely be 10 illustrating the contrary.




celticlord2112 -> RE: Bush Has a Good Economic Record (9/3/2008 5:43:18 PM)

Ok, so Bush is a bastard for not being successful enough.  That about sum it up?

How does acknowledged economic growth translate into the Democratic thesis of America's economy in decline? 

quote:

- Debt interest payments. The IMF reports that the interest cost of servicing general government debt in the U.S. has averaged 2.0% of GDP annually from 2001-2008, compared with 2.7% in the euro zone. It averaged 3.2% annually when President Clinton was in office.

Oh my, Bush outperformed Clinton!

Actually, Bush outperformed Clinton AGAIN--unemployment during the Bush Administration was half a percentage point lower than under Clinton, as noted in the OP.

Reality check, of course, is that any President is due about as much credit for economic success as he is blame for economic failure--somewhere between little and none.  However, the reality is also that the United States economy has not dwindled these past eight years, has not declined, but rather has grown.  Pillorying Bush for a stagnant or declining economy in the face of such reality is simply foolishness.




rulemylife -> RE: Bush Has a Good Economic Record (9/3/2008 5:44:26 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

International Monetary Fund (IMF) ... the World Bank,


I have good friends at both the Fund and the Bank, and they have little respect for Bush's performance on the economy.

Ok, and what rebuttal to the IMF and World Bank data did they give you?  What corrections to the IMF and World Bank data did they point out?

Having "a friend" in either institution is irrelevant.  Having some hard data would be very relevant.  Did the Wall Street Journal report erroneous data?



The Journal report slanted data?  Perish the thought!  We all know they present the same "fair and balanced" reporting one finds on Fox News.




celticlord2112 -> RE: Bush Has a Good Economic Record (9/3/2008 5:45:16 PM)

quote:

For every one study showing an upwards trend in the economy...there will likely be 10 illustrating the contrary.

Do you have any examples of those ten studies?




thornhappy -> RE: Bush Has a Good Economic Record (9/3/2008 5:45:21 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

International Monetary Fund (IMF) ... the World Bank,


I have good friends at both the Fund and the Bank, and they have little respect for Bush's performance on the economy.

Ok, and what rebuttal to the IMF and World Bank data did they give you?  What corrections to the IMF and World Bank data did they point out?

Having "a friend" in either institution is irrelevant.  Having some hard data would be very relevant.  Did the Wall Street Journal report erroneous data?


Isn't that an opinion piece?  Their opinion pieces have a past history of contradicting their own reporting pages.  I'd be a bit leery on the data.

thornhappy




celticlord2112 -> RE: Bush Has a Good Economic Record (9/3/2008 5:46:23 PM)

quote:

The Journal report slanted data? Perish the thought! We all know they present the same "fair and balanced" reporting one finds on Fox News.

So slant some data the other way.

Rebuttal in the form of contradicting data would be greatly appreciated.




celticlord2112 -> RE: Bush Has a Good Economic Record (9/3/2008 5:49:19 PM)

quote:

Isn't that an opinion piece? Their opinion pieces have a past history of contradicting their own reporting pages. I'd be a bit leery on the data.

Saying "Bush has a good economic record" is definitely an opinion.

Saying unemployment averaged 4.7% from 2001 through 2007, whereas it averaged 5.2% during the Clinton Administration, is not an opinion, even in an op-ed piece.




Jeffff -> RE: Bush Has a Good Economic Record (9/3/2008 5:53:00 PM)

What about UNDER employment..........lol

This IS fun.... but when you and I meet.. we should talk  about sports...LOL

Jeff




celticlord2112 -> RE: Bush Has a Good Economic Record (9/3/2008 5:55:09 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeffff

What about UNDER employment..........lol

This IS fun.... but when you and I meet.. we should talk  about sports...LOL

Jeff

What about it?  Facts and figures--got any?

Simple challenge, folks.  Rebut the article.  If the numbers are wrong, say where.  If other data paints a different picture, let's have it.

(edited to add: sports is boring compared to politics!)




Jeffff -> RE: Bush Has a Good Economic Record (9/3/2008 6:11:44 PM)

I disagree..... sports is about  achieving excellence. if only for a short time. politics is about . pandering and making people feel all good about themselves.. whether they deserve it or not.

Jeff




Hippiekinkster -> RE: Bush Has a Good Economic Record (9/3/2008 6:59:55 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Another comic piece! . You're in fine form today [8D] .
I'd have to see the methodology behind those numbers before I could offer an opinion.

The entire thesis seems to be that growth is good.  That may not be the goal of many governments. Price stability might be the goal of, say, Germany, at the expense of growth. Population stability might be a primary goal of the PRC.

An outstanding safety net and excellent public services (cultural as well as public safety and healthcare) would be much more important to me than a 1 or 2% growth in income every year.

The US economy has perhaps had a bit more growth. Meanwhile, Germany is replacing much of it's old track with track designed for 200+Kph trains. Berlin is completely digital. The Germans are way ahead of the US in investing in "alternative" energy infrastructure.

Whomsoever says that "growth" is the be-all and end-all of a society doesn't speak for me.




Wildfleurs -> RE: Bush Has a Good Economic Record (9/3/2008 7:01:54 PM)

The problem is that the devil's in the details....

quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

Bush Has a Good Economic Record

Heresy, I know, but here are some stats:
]- Economic growth. U.S. output has expanded faster than in most advanced economies since 2000. The IMF reports that real U.S. gross domestic product (GDP) grew at an average annual rate of 2.2% over the period 2001-2008 (including its forecast for the current year). President Bush will leave to his successor an economy 19% larger than the one he inherited from President Clinton. This U.S. expansion compares with 14% by France, 13% by Japan and just 8% by Italy and Germany over the same period.


Part of how GDP is calculated is through government spending including spending for wars. Despite having a republican for the last eight years, government spending has gone from 1,789.2 billion to about 2,730.2 billion with the largest increase in spending in Defense. That is obviously one of the reasons why our GDP has grown.

quote:

Income and wealth distribution. The latest World Bank estimates show that the richest 20% of U.S. households had a 45.8% share of total income in 2000, similar to the levels in the U.K. (44.0%) and Israel (44.9%). In 65 other countries the richest quintile had a larger share than in the U.S.


Comparing income distribution in 2000 to other states doesn't exactly paint an accurate picture. Lets look at some trend analysis thats a bit more recent as reported in the NY Times:

"While total reported income in the United States increased almost 9 percent in 2005, the most recent year for which such data is available, average incomes for those in the bottom 90 percent dipped slightly compared with the year before, dropping $172, or 0.6 percent.

The gains went largely to the top 1 percent, whose incomes rose to an average of more than $1.1 million each, an increase of more than $139,000, or about 14 percent."
*

- http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/29/business/29tax.html?ex=1332820800&en=fb472e72466c34c8&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss

quote:

- Employment. The U.S. employment rate, measured by the percentage of people of working age (16-65 years) in jobs, has remained high by international standards. The latest OECD figures show a rate of 71.7% in 2006. This was more than five percentage points above the average for the euro area.


Again, international comparisons aren't helpful or valid to find out what is happening in America. To see where we are going (i.e. are things getting better or worse?), we have to look at trends over time. When Bush came into office in 2000 we were at a 4.1% unemployment rate and in 2007 we were at 4.5%. ** Not a positive trend.

quote:

The U.S. unemployment rate averaged 4.7% from 2001-2007. This compares with a 5.2% average rate during President Clinton's term of office, and is well below the euro zone average of 8.3% since 2000.


The problem isn't the statistics but rather the question you are asking doesn't match up with the statistics you are providing. Bush has a good economic record compared to what? Europe. Or are we going to compare change in basic economic indicators over the time he was president to really look at the impact of his policies. Comparing us to other countries simply tells us how we compare to other countries who aren't doing that well, but it doesn't tell us how we are doing currently, where we used to be, and what the change is between the two.


* Original research can be found at: http://elsa.berkeley.edu/~saez/
** Bureau of Labor Services data




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