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RE: Religion - 8/18/2004 10:23:08 PM

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From: New Castle, PA
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quote:

but then like Jesus nobody really believes, or they find it hard to believe, that He existed.

I dont recall who said it/ where I read it :

One of the best things Satan ever accomplished for himself is to convince most people that he doesn't exist

not really apropos of anything, just popped into my mind when i read this part of your post that I've quoted

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RE: Religion - 8/18/2004 10:50:52 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Thanatosian

quote:

but then like Jesus nobody really believes, or they find it hard to believe, that He existed.

I dont recall who said it/ where I read it :

One of the best things Satan ever accomplished for himself is to convince most people that he doesn't exist

not really apropos of anything, just popped into my mind when i read this part of your post that I've quoted

Heh - the quote that comes to my mind is that, "History is recorded by the victorious." If God and Satan are real as described by Christianity, then of course he'd be billed as the bad guy.

Compes

(in reply to Thanatosian)

RE: Religion - 8/19/2004 6:40:30 AM

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quote:

No, angel, it just makes them "Unchristian". Either you follow the rules, or you don't. You don't get to pick and choose God's or Jesus' message

What exactly is wrong with a Christian or any other religious person practising BDSM?...
Thats like saying that every single person within the BDSM community do exactly the same things so Everyone in BDSM practises Necrophilia or beastiality, which is as we know, complete rubbish. Your kink isnt nessecarily the Kink of another. I really see no justification for saying that a religious person is breaking the laws of their God /Gods or Godesses by practising BDSM. If they were participating within an activity that was strictly against the beliefs of the religion, sure, that would could be seen as hypocritical... but if they are in a marriage and practicing say Ds or roleplay(as examples) with their husband/wife privately, how is that 'against their religion'?

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(in reply to compes)

RE: Religion - 8/19/2004 6:43:15 AM

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quote:

Angel, God himself said fear no man but me~
Considering what He can do, I do fear Him~~

Yup, darn right He did... but I wouldnt simply become a Christian because of fear.

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...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

(in reply to knees2you)

RE: Religion - 8/19/2004 3:20:34 PM

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Something that caught my eye~

Miracles performed by Jesus, fact or fiction?

What about what was written during the time of His Miracles~

Jesus knew He was being watched and recorded. He knew that, so the ages
to come would be able to see what he had performed.
His Miracles where performed in front of people, not in hiding. The earlier
writtings where when most of the eyewitnesses where still alive.
The Miracles of Jesus where perfomed to meet actual needs, not to
satisfy someones curiosity~

Somebody mentioned that Our words are not Gods. Yes, but He did talk to people back in the Biblical days. He talked to Moses and His people,
about going to the Promised land. But when they refused to listen, they where banished. And He also talked to Noah and told him to build an Ark.
He knows every language on this earth~

Just bits and pieces out of something I read~

Sincerely, Anthony

quote:

"It's funny how we can see, Yet we are still blind~"

(in reply to darkinshadows)

RE: Religion - 8/19/2004 5:01:40 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: dark~angel

quote:

No, angel, it just makes them "Unchristian". Either you follow the rules, or you don't. You don't get to pick and choose God's or Jesus' message

What exactly is wrong with a Christian or any other religious person practising BDSM?...
Thats like saying that every single person within the BDSM community do exactly the same things so Everyone in BDSM practises Necrophilia or beastiality, which is as we know, complete rubbish. Your kink isnt nessecarily the Kink of another. I really see no justification for saying that a religious person is breaking the laws of their God /Gods or Godesses by practising BDSM. If they were participating within an activity that was strictly against the beliefs of the religion, sure, that would could be seen as hypocritical... but if they are in a marriage and practicing say Ds or roleplay(as examples) with their husband/wife privately, how is that 'against their religion'?

angel, that's not what I was arguing. My thoughts on Christians who practice BDSM is that it may be possible to do so without being a bad Christian. I don't think it would be easy.

What I am saying about "cafeteria Christians" is about those groovy feel good people who say how cool and loving God and Jesus are, and if we just love each other, we'll all go to heaven. Which according to the Christian religion is a crock of BS. This is choosing all the good parts of the bible, and ignoring the parts that are uncomfortable, contradictory, or those parts that would actually force you to change your lifestyle.

Compes

(in reply to darkinshadows)

RE: Religion - 8/20/2004 8:43:47 AM

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quote:

"cafeteria Christians" is about those groovy feel good people who say how cool and loving God and Jesus are, and if we just love each other, we'll all go to heaven

In any group of people, You get different types. Be it BDSM, Christian, Pagans, even lawyers. We could bitch and moan about anyone and anything that angers us. But for what?... to make a point?... to feel good about the ideas we have?.... If You must pick on christians... maybe they are happy& groovy because they are content within themselves? Who knows?... How about trying to ask them instead of making comments about people you don't understand? Why submit to the anger and annoyance you feel? I really wouldnt want anyone to have that kind of power over me, so I listen and learn to from people, especially when I dont understand where they are coming from.

quote:

angel, that's not what I was arguing. My thoughts on Christians who practice BDSM is that it may be possible to do so without being a bad Christian. I don't think it would be easy.

... why just christians? Why not muslims?... or Hindi?... or buddist?... Personally, I have to say I fail to see how BDSM is difficult to practise for any religion, if what a person practises is within the teachings and doctrines of ones religion.

I am not 'arguing' anything.. its a discussion(at least that's how I saw it). Discussions allow minds to be open to everyones thoughts... arguing is caused by closed minds who see one thing & one thing only and thats it. That is how wars begin. I have no desire to try to hold a reasonable discussion with any who wish to argue to get their point across.

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...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

(in reply to compes)

RE: Religion - 8/20/2004 7:10:37 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: dark~angel

quote:

"cafeteria Christians" is about those groovy feel good people who say how cool and loving God and Jesus are, and if we just love each other, we'll all go to heaven

In any group of people, You get different types. Be it BDSM, Christian, Pagans, even lawyers. We could bitch and moan about anyone and anything that angers us. But for what?... to make a point?... to feel good about the ideas we have?.... If You must pick on christians... maybe they are happy& groovy because they are content within themselves? Who knows?... How about trying to ask them instead of making comments about people you don't understand? Why submit to the anger and annoyance you feel? I really wouldnt want anyone to have that kind of power over me, so I listen and learn to from people, especially when I dont understand where they are coming from.

Hmm. And what makes you think I don't understand Christians? I believe I understand them very well. I do not believe that we are in agreement on what it means to be Christian.

Why should I submit to anger? Why should I let Christians have power over me? Well, possibly because Christians DO have power over me, and over the Jewish, and the Muslims, and many other religions in this country. Did you know that several state constitutions have requirements that would prohibit an Atheist from running for office? Maybe I'm upset because I'm so often attacked for my beliefs? I'm not angry at individuals - I'm angry at the political environment that encourages this type of slight. I'm so angry that I've decided to work for change, and have become an activist for religious equality - including yours.

As for "picking" on them - I didn't, and haven't. I've answered a question, and replied to statements in this forum - everything is on topic. I've even apologized for any possibility of offense. This is how a discussion is supposed to be conducted - politely if at all possible. I have tried to be polite - and again, if I haven't, I apologize.

quote:

quote:

angel, that's not what I was arguing. My thoughts on Christians who practice BDSM is that it may be possible to do so without being a bad Christian. I don't think it would be easy.

... why just christians? Why not muslims?... or Hindi?... or buddist?... Personally, I have to say I fail to see how BDSM is difficult to practise for any religion, if what a person practises is within the teachings and doctrines of ones religion.

I am not 'arguing' anything.. its a discussion(at least that's how I saw it). Discussions allow minds to be open to everyone’s thoughts... arguing is caused by closed minds who see one thing & one thing only and that’s it. That is how wars begin. I have no desire to try to hold a reasonable discussion with any who wish to argue to get their point across.

Noooo, you are using the incorrect definition of an Argument. Again I apologize, this is my fault for using "argument" as a term of logic instead of in it's colloquial meaning. See this site on how to construct a Logical Argument. So I actually DO think we are having a reasonable discussion, even if we haven't agreed on terms of the subject.

As for "Why Christians" - well, mostly because I was trying to stay on topic. In answering other people, I replied about Christians because that was what was being spoken about the most. It also happens to be the branch of religion that I know the most about - I am a deconverted Christian, with decades of Christian experience. I have studied other religions too, but have not lived them, so I don't consider myself very knowledgeable about them.

angel, I don't think that you and I completely disagree on this subject - you dislike labels, I tend to dislike labels that are falsely applied or poorly defined - especially when they have the power to alter a person's life.

Perhaps both of us are seeing this from opposite ends of the same road.

If someone calls themself Christian, I tend to look at the definition of Christian and see if that person fits that definition. I find that people who base their definition of Christian on the bible are rarely, if ever, able to meet that definition.

To me, it seems that someone calling themselves Christian would limit them in your eyes. You can embrace a wider area than I can - than a mere label can encompass.

Compes

(in reply to darkinshadows)

RE: Religion - 8/20/2004 10:19:07 PM

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Bdsm and Religion??

Most Religions fit Bdsm~
Even Christianity to a point~

But having someone say that Different Religions should not be called Cults is what was Quoted from the Bible~

Newflowers if you read Isaiah Chapter 55 8-9.
You have to read all of Isaiah.
God talked to man during the Biblical days~
Moses, Noah. They understood what He wanted from them~~

Have a great evening, Sincerely, Anthony

quote:

"It's funny how we can see, Yet we are still blind~"

(in reply to compes)

RE: Religion - 8/20/2004 11:44:11 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: knees2you

Bdsm and Religion??

Most Religions fit Bdsm~
Even Christianity to a point~

But having someone say that Different Religions should not be called Cults is what was Quoted from the Bible~

Newflowers if you read Isaiah Chapter 55 8-9.
You have to read all of Isaiah.
God talked to man during the Biblical days~
Moses, Noah. They understood what He wanted from them~~

But how does Isaiah 55:8-9 work with Genesis 1:27? In fact, if we've been created in God's image, doesn't that make it odd for God to rebuke us for questioning what he does? What child doesn't want to be more like his parents?

Isaiah is such an interesting book of the bible. Israel's sinfulness results in God withdrawing his protection and allowing the Assyrian army to come marching in. Israel never recovered from that. But there WAS a promise given, in 7:14 - an era of peace that is heralded by the birth of a son to a virgin woman - a son named Immanuel.

To this day, there has been no peace in Israel - even in today's reconstituted Israel. And the Jewish people are still waiting for the birth of that son, as promised.

It's interesting to talk of Isaiah here. I think the beginning of Isaiah parallels what Jerry Falwell, the founder of the Moral Majority, said about 9/11.

quote:

I really believe that the pagans, and the abortionists, and the feminists, and the gays and the lesbians who are actively trying to make that an alternative lifestyle, the ACLU, People for the American Way -- all of them who have tried to secularize America -- I point the finger in their face and say, "You helped this happen."
-- Rev. Jerry Falwell, blaming civil libertarians, feminists, homosexuals, and abortion rights supporters for the terrorist attacks of Tuesday, September 11, 2001, quoted from John F. Harris, "God Gave U.S. 'What We Deserve,' Falwell Says," The Washington Post (September 14, 2001)

Compes

(in reply to knees2you)

RE: Religion - 8/21/2004 7:26:54 AM

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Moses's people Refused to listen to God,
When he told them he was going to take them to the promised land.
You can bet that they paid the price. Now do You think the next generation didn't listen to God~ They realized what the First Generation had gotten and said, that's ok will take what has been promised to us~

Sincerely, Anthony

quote:

"It's funny we can see, Yet we are still blind~"

(in reply to compes)

RE: Religion - 8/21/2004 9:41:09 AM

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quote:

Heh - the quote that comes to my mind is that, "History is recorded by the victorious." If God and Satan are real as described by Christianity, then of course he'd be billed as the bad guy.

Compes

I know a guy who handlesreligious people trying to convert him thusly. After hearing enough of of their speil to know they are Christians he asks if they heard about the war in heavan with the angels. When they say yes he drops his voice four octaves (a valuable skill one learns in college:)) and says, "It is not over yet, mortal."

They leave him alone after they who is demonically possed.

_____________________________

When the Lady smiles i can't resist her call. As a matter of fact, i don't resist at all. Well that depends if it is a smile or a grimmace.

(in reply to compes)

RE: Religion - 8/21/2004 12:37:36 PM

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From: southeast Mississippi
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I try not to argue with people about what they believe. I might privately snicker about it, but we're all entitled to an opinion or two. Being born and raised in the south usually means you went to church as a child. I still go to church. I enjoy it and like to feel that I'm a part of a community. My beliefs have changed over the years. When I was a child, I believed in the inerrancy of the Bible. I believed that everything in there was from God's mouth to the authors' ears. I have a more mature faith now. I know that the story represented in Job is in many cultures some of which predate the people of the old testament. I know that the story of the flood is likely a fairy tale. If you read the Bible, you will find a lot of discrepancies. In one place, it says that Judas hanged himself and in another it says he threw himself off a high place and died. The Bible is a funny book. It can be so graphic in some places and so coy in others. Graphic example: Jael is described as driving a tent stake through the temple of a sleeping soldier who was fleeing the Israelites. An example of coy: In Ruth, her mother in law tells her to go to Boaz while he is threshing grain and sleep at his feet and then he will do right by her. In the story, Ruth goes and "uncovers Boaz's feet". Sorry, but that word "feet" is really genitals.

I don't find BDSM to be contrary to belief in the Bible or God or Allah or anything. People are different. We like and appreciate different things. The trick is to get along with each other without belittling other's beliefs or killing them because you think they are wrong. The church isn't for perfect people. If we were perfect, we wouldn't need God or Jesus or Allah or anything. We could rely on ourselves.

An aside to Compes.. God told the children of Israel to kill all the peoples inhabiting the Promised Land and they didn't do it. God told them not to leave one thing living.. no animals, no slaves, to wipe them out. And they weren't quite successful and they've had no peace since then. Curious, no?

< Message edited by dixiedumpling -- 8/26/2004 12:08:42 AM >

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RE: Religion - 8/21/2004 1:07:49 PM

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quote:

But having someone say that Different Religions should not be called Cults is what was Quoted from the Bible~

Re:... definition of the word cult.

quote:

ORIGINAL: me!!!!*giggles*

The word cult is defined as a system of religious or spiritual beliefs, especially a transient belief system regarded by others as misguided or unorthodox or a group of people who share religious or spiritual beliefs: a person, philosophy, or activity regarded with extreme or excessive admiration.

Therefore... Christianity could be viewed as a cult

Also... I wonder if You have read the bible as its original form hebrew/aramaic etc... you will find that the word that its translated into isnt 'strictly' exact. I think that reading the bible cover to cover truely cannot work. Like I have said before, God isnt just one book. And even if it was... I think its truely up to individuals to study such an important part of their life closely... not just one version only, or other peoples teachings, or what is written in books and told to us at bible meetings. All languages have words that another language may have no equal for. Cult is 17th centuary orig' french from the Latin 'cultus' which means worship... (wow... this turning into school...giggles) and may be the nearest recognisable word, but if You truely know that concept of the word 'cult' in English language... its actually quite a powerful and positive word. I guess what I am saying is that Its not wise to make accusations about things unless you fully understand the words your using. Technically... christianity could be considered a 'cult' by non christians. Just something to think about.

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...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

(in reply to knees2you)

RE: Religion - 8/21/2004 1:50:15 PM

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quote:

And what makes you think I don't understand Christians? I believe I understand them very welL.

Then Angel conceeds to you with this, and is in awe. Because I do not always understand most 'christians' & I openly admit that. I would not assume that all christians are the same. I would not assume that all hindi are the same... all BDSMers... I only know about me... and I know God. Angel too has been involved with christianity for 'decades'... but I was not 'raised' in a christian house, i follow Gods teachings because thats my free will. It hasnt been pushed onto me from parents or going to church from an early age. Do I stand by my belief?... You bet. Would I stand by someone claiming to be teaching from God if He was abusing the teachings to suit themself... ? I Hope that its become evident that I will not.

quote:

angel, I don't think that you and I completely disagree on this subject ...

I agree(see we do!...lol)... but(theres always a but) Your views seem to me(and its only my opinion, and I could be wrong and ifso, I apologise) that all christians are a certain way, and this is because you feel stiffled within your country by the presence of people who do things/make laws/choose amendments in the name of God then break every one of them themselves. And thats concerning because thats like people saying(like I said before) that all muslims are killers... and that all single mothers are scroungers. We know that is just not true. Religion proclaimed by the voice of man can be an incredibly dangerous thing... just like tunnel vision that every fruit is sweet. IMO is so wrong to assume and so much more enlightening to be open.

I can see why the anger can be directed to 'christians'... I can see that. But these are still men. They make mistakes... they even manipulate. I guess, I just dont follow many. I follow God.(a person could say that is what they are doing...also)... I dont agree with everything someone does in the name of christianity... But I do believe in Gods Word. Do people abuse the words?... Damn right they do... Is that wrong... oh yes. Do some people follow blindly?... *gestures with her hand*... just take a look around and you'll see the answer is yes.

They are countries across the world suffering in the name of religions.

There are people all over abused in the name of religion.

There are animals and humans sacrificed and martyred in the name of religions.

Does that mean we have to stand by and let it happen? Be quite? Turn a blind eye?
And does that mean we should forgive and forget? Love everyone without feeling pain and anger?

A bee is small, yet it pollenates many flowers on its journey.

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...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

(in reply to compes)

RE: Religion - 8/21/2004 6:07:35 PM

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Ok everybody Breath slowly.
Just putting out what I've learned~

I'm not hear to convert by any means.

I used to be a Paganist, and a Buddhist~

If someone asks me if I know about the War Betwwen the Angles in Heaven and the ones in Hell, I'd say yes and that I know it is not over, but That If God had the Power that He had when He put Lucifer where he belonged, then He had the power. If he was put there and could not leave, Then I do not worry about the War. When he was put there the war was over~~

Sincerely, Anthony

quote:

"It's funny how we can see, Yet we are still blind~"

(in reply to darkinshadows)

RE: Religion - 8/22/2004 6:45:00 AM

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From: Brisbane, Australia
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quote:

ORIGINAL: iwillserveu
I know a guy who handlesreligious people trying to convert him thusly. After hearing enough of of their speil to know they are Christians he asks if they heard about the war in heavan with the angels. When they say yes he drops his voice four octaves (a valuable skill one learns in college:)) and says, "It is not over yet, mortal."

They leave him alone after they who is demonically possed.

Heh, I like that.

I hate having people trying to force their religion onto me. I don't like people coming to my door telling me I need to be saved, or having people stand on a corner preaching the same. My response to those who say they used to do drugs but then found god, is: I used to do god, but then found drugs, and realised I was god.

I don't care what other people believe in, but people who step in my face and tell me I'm in need of salvation or that my way of life is wrong, cross the line of good manners to me.

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RE: Religion - 8/22/2004 7:53:17 AM

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quote:

Newflowers if you read Isaiah Chapter 55 8-9.
You have to read all of Isaiah.
God talked to man during the Biblical days~
Moses, Noah. They understood what He wanted from them~~

Have a great evening, Sincerely, Anthony

Amthony,

Thanks for the recommendation to my reading list. I have read the Bible more than once - all of it, from cover to cover and have studied it in same manner. Reading the Book of Isaiah in its entirety yet again will not cause me to agree with you.

When I teach transcendentalist theory and literature, I include Emerson's Self-Reliance. A great read and a decent explanation of transcendentalism. One of the points he makes is that if one says one believes XYZ, then one should explore and question to determine that the belief of XYZ is true and applicable to the self; to fully understand its validity to the individual.

It is my observation that many religious people (specifically christians as I live in a predominately christian country) are aghast at the thought that the XYZ they believe could possibly be - dare I say it - wrong, untrue, inaccurate, not applicable to everyone, of no interest to others, only one among many paths. I prefer the transcentalist litimus (sp) test - what do you believe, how did you come to believe, why do you believe, why do you think what you believe is applicable to my life? At that time, it is still my choice to accept or reject your argument as I see its relevance or lack thereof to my life.

The ability to articulate rational responses would make for interesting conversation at the very least. Saying I believe XYZ because and I'm right and everyone should believe XYZ if they wish to be right - this is meaningless.

newflowers

(in reply to knees2you)

RE: Religion - 8/22/2004 12:32:39 PM

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From: Burlington, Ontario
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quote:

angel, that's not what I was arguing. My thoughts on Christians who practice BDSM is that it may be possible to do so without being a bad Christian. I don't think it would be easy.

What I am saying about "cafeteria Christians" is about those groovy feel good people who say how cool and loving God and Jesus are, and if we just love each other, we'll all go to heaven. Which according to the Christian religion is a crock of BS. This is choosing all the good parts of the bible, and ignoring the parts that are uncomfortable, contradictory, or those parts that would actually force you to change your lifestyle.

Compes

I know Christians who are also lifestyle BDSMers, they don't foist their beliefs on me and I don't try to make them shamanistic or Wiccan. I listen to what they have to say, we can talk about our beliefs without stepping on toes. I give them room to believe what they want, because it works for them & makes them happy and they give me the same respect. My mother doesn't know about my lifestyle, she knows I am a pagan, but she has no idea that I am studying to be a shaman, that I belong to a Wiccan coven or that I live a BDSM lifestyle. Yet she still tries to manipulate me into "coming back to Jesus" There are Christians that I abhor because of their elitist attitudes, but I can say the same thing about folks from other faiths, even Wiccan. It isn't the religion, it is the closed mind of the person practicing it. Fortunately I haven't run into any in my BDSM community.

_____________________________

PHLOX: “It’s unethical for a doctor to cause harm...I can inflict as much pain as I like.”

(in reply to compes)

RE: Religion - 8/22/2004 5:35:30 PM

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Newflowers, as i mentioned in the old Testament,
God states that his word is Law and His word can not be Broken.

But if You want to Believe in Transedentalists,
Then Your life is in Your hands, Not the Creator.

Someone show me proof of the Big bang Theory???
Not gonna Happen.

Even Professor Richard r. Dawkins a leading Atheist. {For most leading Atheist. Say's And I Quote~~} We could not have gotten here by chance~

Sincerely, Anthony

quote:

It"s funny how we can still see, Yet we are blind~"

(in reply to LadyShoshin)

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