The most subtle misconception about female dominants (Full Version)

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AAkasha -> The most subtle misconception about female dominants (9/27/2008 9:02:28 AM)


Everyone knows the most obvious misconceptions about femdoms - like they all hate men, or they dominate based on revenge issues or whatnot.

But there's a more subtle misconception that comes from unrealistic femdom porn and is reinforced by male fantasy, and I think it's just as damaging because it's not as obvious.

I think it's the perception that dominant women dominate indiscriminately, or they get their satisfaction and pleasure purely from the act, not really the connection with the man.  As a result, a submissive man just merely must make contact with a dominant woman and state his availability, and she'll surely be interested in having her way with him, because not all men are willing to submit. 

The perception is that it is easier to find, connect, court a dominant woman than a vanilla woman - because she's going to be the one in charge.  She's the dominant, after all.  Once again, if a submissive makes contact and she's even remotely interested, she'll begin the pursuit, and his job is to simply surrender to her advances.

I think this perception is what attracts many submissive men, because they want to be freed from the pressure of the pursuit - the couting, dating, initiating first kisses, saying the right thing, making sexual advances.  The fantasy is very attractive:  after all, dominant women take charge - so once her "femdom radar" tells her he is submissive, he's going to be pursued. 

The reality, as we ladies know, is that we are probably just as hard if not harder to court than a "vanilla" woman.  We want all the things a vanilla woman wants (connection, empathy, mutual interests, passion, sexual chemistry) PLUS an additional connection based on BDSM desires. 

I'm not the only femdom, I'm sure, who has men coming to her and simply stating his availability, and wondering why I am not pursuing him. And then when I state I must be attracted to a man to want to dominate him, he asks me what I want to know about him - again, essentially just waiting for me to do the work of courting, for me to pursue him aggressively simply because he's willing to submit.  He, and the 45 guys behind him.

It's a more subtle misconception than, "Dominant women do NOT hate all men," but it's there; it's the idea that dominant women pursue aggressively before there's any real chemistry, and there is no expectation for the man to initiate, court, pursue, flirt, or romance. I'm the first to admit that I am very predatory, and I LOVE to be the one to pursue - however, it's after there's chemistry, not merely availability.

This perception cannot be blamed on male porn entirely, but maybe to some degree.  My question is this: How many submissive men would still be interested in the idea of BDSM if they knew that it's just as difficult, if not more, to court and romance a woman who will dominate him?  How many would fail this simple "True or False" test:

True or False:

Dominant women prefer to be in charge, so once they know you are a potential submissive for them, they will make all the advances and your role is to be obedient and follow her lead.  They will determine if they are interested.

Dominant women are easier to date because they are in charge. You just need to know how to follow instructions.

Dominant women have many options for partners, including introducing vanilla boyfriends to S&M; that said, submissive men need to be courting them just as aggressively as vanilla men.





Akasha




sillyslaveboy -> RE: The most subtle misconception about female dominants (9/27/2008 9:26:41 AM)

Eh, true / false play? I prefer RGBA one.




AAkasha -> RE: The most subtle misconception about female dominants (9/27/2008 9:28:55 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: sillyslaveboy

Eh, true / false play? I prefer RGBA one.



Actually as I wrote them I realized that it would be better presented as "always true," "sometimes true" and "never true," but the point is still the same.
Akasha




sillyslaveboy -> RE: The most subtle misconception about female dominants (9/27/2008 9:38:38 AM)

Eh, just another side of the coin. The basic question, as i see the whole topic, is:

"Is a Woman interested in you or in a goddamn play?"

And i will add that not only subs are the victims of misconceptions related to BDSM. Dommes are either, especially in regions where BDSM cannot develop freely (read: east, excluding too far east perhaps :) ). Also, it IS hard to miss some misconceptions either because there are certain bareers (created by Dommes themselves) that prevent subs from seeing it or approaching the matter.




Dilseachd -> RE: The most subtle misconception about female dominants (9/27/2008 10:09:20 AM)

A great summary of some of the "illusion" part of this lifestyle that many beginners do not see.   I think you have hit on the source of alot of the frustration in novices expressed in the often repeated question you see here..."Why cant I find a Domme".

For me...I never assumed it would be easier to find a Domme than it would be to find a vanilla partner.  I knew it would most likely be much harder when I started my journey in this lifestyle.  If there are 100 men for every woman in the vanilla world then there are 1000 so called submissives to every Femdom.   Cant like the apparent odds on that if you are a novice.   I took the inititive to bother to read a couple of books and had the good fortune of finding some good online sites back in the days when you could actually find them easier, and learned a bit about the do's and dont's of this.  So I never fell into that mistake that many make.  I treated the Ladies as people first...respectful..curious yes..but I talked about things other than the lifestyle predominantly.   This along with my own unique "persona" got me noticed and soon I was talking about lifestyle things with people and soon entered into a negotiation with somone.

But courtship is a two way street....

To use the old phrase..."I chased her until she caught me"..as an example...any good courtship is a give and take of times of each "chasing" the other.  Once the attraction is there..then the chase is on. 

I think its a bit differant though..for me anyway..once both people in any potential courtship are experianced lifestylers.  I have been in situations where I was the novice..she the experianced..and the ones where both of us were experianced.  Its a totally differant game then since both "know the rules".   More often than not for me these days..I am the experianced one and the Lady is the novice it seems.

So..for me  as a very experianced submissive/bottom/masochist...I like to be pursued as much as I like to court a Lady when there is mutual interest.  Its a dance.  A good chance to see some of the aspects of power exchange in action in ways other than play time.   So the same situation you describe above can apply to novice Dommes when they seek an experianced submissive.  They think.."hey I am a Domme..a novice yes...but here is a submissive I would like to get to know.  So why doesnt he roll over and fawn at my feet just because I said hello to him?"  They get puzzled when the response they get back from me is polite and formal..and usually doesnt involve alot about the lifestyle or any at all for that matter.   I try to engage them as a person..as a woman..and they get confused and many give up.  If they dont, then it shows they have some tenacity..and personally thats something I look for.  How much of a Huntress is she?   Is she willing to chase me as much as I am willing to chase her?  If she wanted me to just roll over and wet myself because she said hello...she needs a puppy..not a submissive.  Give me someone with alot of fire.

Anyway..before this turns into a rant or something.  

Thank you for an insightful post on the novice submissive seeking a Lady.  I hope I have added to the conversation by giving my opinions on it from the side of an experianced submissive who is being "courted" by a Domme...either a novice or experianced one.  I think in the end alot of this topic can be summed up as novice vs experianced.

Regards and Respects to all,
Dils




chamberqueen -> RE: The most subtle misconception about female dominants (9/27/2008 10:14:34 AM)

The misconception that I personally hate is that all Dommes have Barbie doll figures, wear 6" spiked heels to mash their subs with, and parade around in latex brandishing a whip.  : )

I have had male subs write to me and wonder why I am not pursuing them when, after all, they let me know that they are available.  I agree with your premise that many of them feel relieved that they don't have to be the seeker but the sought after.  However, most of those don't have a clue just how many offers a Domme gets.

I think there is another common misconception - that a Domme simply gives orders and wants worship, and is not someone who would actually like to be known.  I think that the pursuit issue has more to do with the frustration of a sub who "knows" how wonderful a job they would do and think that it should be easy to recognize.  This case that I just mentioned has more to do with idealization.  Both have to do with unrealistic expectations.




Shawn1066 -> RE: The most subtle misconception about female dominants (9/27/2008 10:22:37 AM)

I never compared the two, since I've never pursued a vanilla relationship.  When pursuing a lifestyle relationship, I just used common sense.

She is a human being, so I should treat her like a human being with hopes, quirks, failings, and strengths...not as a glorified prop for what I want.  If I am unsure of something, then I should ask her about it.

I'd hope that's a semi-universal truth, regardless of which side of the whip you're on and regardless of if you're even in the lifestyle or not.

DV's Fox




OttersSwim -> RE: The most subtle misconception about female dominants (9/27/2008 10:38:35 AM)

Thank you for this informative post!  I am sort of surprised to hear that sub males are doing this.  Strange to think that people would not realize that dominance and romance go hand in hand for many - especially in the beginning stages of a relationship.

Without doubt, there has to be not only chemistry, but desire and activity behind that desire if you want to make a connection.

When my Lady and I got together for the first time, she touched my chest in a very brief, but clearly intimate way as we said goodbye.  To me, it was a signal that she was interested.  As soon as I got home, I sent her an email expressing my interest and desire to pursue a relationship.  I guess I did it right as she responded almost immediately and that is how we got going.

Roses, chocolate, wine, and service can make wonderful romance...




MistressDolly -> RE: The most subtle misconception about female dominants (9/27/2008 10:46:56 AM)

Great post. I believe it is the Bottom Subs which have the "I will sit back while she does everything" mentality.

However, based on my own experience and interaction with men seeking submission beyond bedroom play, they tend to be quite proactive in their search and courtship. They know there are courtship rules to follow. They know they must prove themselves worthy and sincere.







PsyVamp -> RE: The most subtle misconception about female dominants (9/27/2008 10:50:23 AM)

quote:

True or False:

Dominant women prefer to be in charge, so once they know you are a potential submissive for them, they will make all the advances and your role is to be obedient and follow her lead.  They will determine if they are interested.

Yes I will determine if I'm interested, No I will not make all the advances.
quote:


Dominant women are easier to date because they are in charge. You just need to know how to follow instructions.

False... completely false
quote:


Dominant women have many options for partners, including introducing vanilla boyfriends to S&M; that said, submissive men need to be courting them just as aggressively as vanilla men.

True and false... yes there are a lot of men emailing me, no they aren't all options


 
I know what you mean.  I see that in a lot of young novice submissives, they aren't exactly sure how "this whole thing works" and the only experience they have is porn..
And we all know that just turns out badly because as Chamberqueen said, we are not all barbie dolls in 6" spiked heels (I can hear My chiropractor getting ready to buy his next boat with that thought, lol)
 
Those submissives who take the time to write more than "I can serve You just like it says in Your profile" are more likely to get My attention.  Even then, life being what it is, I might not be able to get back to them quickly. 
 
Or they think that just because they can offer Me "travel and the finer things" that I must be fake for not grabbing them..
I think I make it pretty clear in My profile that I'm already too busy to fit into somebody's fantasy life, but then again, these are people who don't bother reading the profiles.
 
*sighs*
 
Oh well ... on to the next email I suppose...
 
Lady Jag
 




OneMoreWaste -> RE: The most subtle misconception about female dominants (9/27/2008 11:32:49 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: AAkasha

I think this perception is what attracts many submissive men, because they want to be freed from the pressure of the pursuit - the couting, dating, initiating first kisses, saying the right thing, making sexual advances.  The fantasy is very attractive:  after all, dominant women take charge - so once her "femdom radar" tells her he is submissive, he's going to be pursued. 


I don't know that this can necessarily be blamed on fantasy and porn.

For one, it's logical, at least to me. If you're pursuing a sexually Dominant partner, how does it make sense that you should be the one to initiate the first kiss or make sexual advances?

That's not to say that it would absolve the submissive party of all of "the chase"- again, it doesn't seem logical that you should just say "here i am, one submissive free to good home" and make the Dominant work at drawing out information and deciding if you're worthy.

However, as a submissive male, if I were to contact a FemDom, let Her know who I am and what I have to offer her, I think I probably *would* just leave it at here I am, I'm interested in you, here's what I have to offer... and let Her make the advance from there. Which brings me to the second point.

Some submissives are just *submissive*- not the Alpha go-getter type. And from that perspective, it doesn't feel *right* to make advances on a Dominant. Going ahead and asking Her out feels like an imposition, a presumption, and it's just not what you do... even with endless evidence to the contrary. Continuing to follow-up with someone who doesn't show interest is not what you do. It's not about following a fantasy or being lazy, it's about having to do something against your nature in the one situation where it actually seems reasonable to think that you could follow your nature. Even if you know mentally that FemDoms are no different than vanilla women, you just keep hoping that sooner or later you'll find one who's special.

Obviously not the case for everyone, but (contrary to VERY popular FemDom misconception) not everything that submissive males do is driven by sexual fantasy [8|] .




sillyslaveboy -> RE: The most subtle misconception about female dominants (9/27/2008 12:06:10 PM)

At OneMoreWaste

i do, say, agree in most with Akasha's suggestions about how the things should start. Being totally passive will give a male sub something probably only in 1 : (>> 1) cases. But an other thing concerns me, and my huble experience. This is certainly not how the things are always supposed to work after the relationship starts. While my first relationship followed the reason Akasha suggests, my second relationship was the one in which i was really treated like a thing, even when dating my Miss in the 'outside world'. She was really the one in charge and control of every aspect.

In another community i also got to know a Woman with similar conception of Mistress-slave relationship. i remember the episode She had with one of the most decent slaves there. There is no doubt both of them are decent in their orientation. Still, after they (probably) met, the guy started claiming that what She does isn't domination nor BDSM. he claimed She was sort of mentally ill and whatever else.

So... since i prefered it the way my second Miss had it, maybe i shall be called mentally ill or whatever, and thus even "be limited to the same sort o` people". C est la vie, eh? ;)

Besides, i appreciate that Akasha is directing Her attention to males, who are really the group that 'should' have some more formal education before they start contacting Ladies. Still i will repeat that not only they are victims of misconceptions. Just search the journals for "i am so disappointed" and similar stuff in the profiles of Dommes. i see it kind of too often. And Y/you know what happens when i contact them (well, maybe not applying, but lets have some conversation)? Except in one case, my message was deleted unread. Any clue?




PsyVamp -> RE: The most subtle misconception about female dominants (9/27/2008 12:16:51 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: OneMoreWaste

For one, it's logical, at least to me. If you're pursuing a sexually Dominant partner, how does it make sense that you should be the one to initiate the first kiss or make sexual advances?


Obviously not the case for everyone, but (contrary to VERY popular FemDom misconception) not everything that submissive males do is driven by sexual fantasy [8|] .



I am slightly confused at this.... whoever said dominant females were always the sexually dominant partner?  Who said anything about sex period?
 
and how could it not be driven by sexual fantasy if you immediately label the female sexually dominant?

(edited for spelling)




undergroundsea -> RE: The most subtle misconception about female dominants (9/27/2008 1:24:32 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: PsyVamp
I am slightly confused at this.... whoever said dominant females were always the sexually dominant partner?  Who said anything about sex period?
 
and how could it not be driven by sexual fantasy if you immediately label the female sexually dominant?


In the context of BDSM, I take sexually dominant to mean someone who prefers the dominant role with respect to their sexual orientation or intimate relationship, which may or may not align with their general personality. That is, I don't interpret sexually dominant to only suggest dominance with respect to conventional sex, and do not think a reference to sexual dominance necessarily refers to conventional sex.

As for fantasy driving thoughts, it depends on how one defines fantasy. All other things equal, I find it attractive if a woman identifies with a sexually dominant role (that is, she identifies as a domme). I do not connect with any objection to the fact that my attraction is tied to her dominance. It is this dominance that makes her a potential partner for play or relationship, which influences the attraction I feel.

My attraction relies heavily on interpersonal and practical compatibility. I am more drawn to an attractive profile when there is a fair chance that I am able to pursue a real time relationship; with respect to this parameter, I am more drawn to someone who is local, followed by someone who is reasonably local, followed by someone who lives in the U.S. in a place I visit routinely, followed by someone who lives in the U.S. and so on. My interest does not rest on the location only. However, the location plays a role in the sum feeling because of the situational compatibility.

Similarly, compatible sexuality plays a role. Amongst other things, my interest depends on the sex of a person, whether she is gay or not, and whether she enjoys BDMS or not. Each of these play a role in defining compatibility. Thus, when I see someone who seems to have traits that I initially find attractive, my interest increases if I start to see basic compatibility. My interest does not rest on BDSM compatibility alone but this matter is one that affects basic compatibility. And so I can entirely take interest in the domme identity of a woman without it being driven by the thought of an orgasm. My social goals include finding a partner for a long-term relationship and partner(s) for play in the interim. If a social goal to find a partner can be called a fantasy, then, yes, my interest in the domme identity of a woman is driven by fantasy. But then, this statement applies to most everyone.

Cheers,

Sea




Wickad -> RE: The most subtle misconception about female dominants (9/27/2008 1:47:20 PM)

(fast reply)

Though I agree with Aakasha in her assessment, I think it is actually a bit simpler and more pervasive than she has stated.

Our society teaches that men are dominant and/or aggressive and women are submissive and/or passive.  Thus, if you are dominant, you must also be aggressive.  As men are always sexually motivated (tongue in cheek here, going on what is a societal norm) and if dominant, always sexually aggressive, it would seem (to those who don't take the time to really think about it) that a Dominant woman would also be sexually aggressive.  On the flipside, it would also mean that a submissive man is passive and as such expected to not pursue the Dominant woman or the relationship itself.

Of course, most of us on this board see this to be rather silly but ... I think it's a simple case of inexperienced submissive men putting their societal assumptions and extrapolations off on Dominant women.

Wickad




subtex -> RE: The most subtle misconception about female dominants (9/27/2008 2:39:04 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: AAkasha

My question is this: How many submissive men would still be interested in the idea of BDSM if they knew that it's just as difficult, if not more, to court and romance a woman who will dominate him?



Speaking for myself, my interest in BDSM isn't rooted in anything practical or rational.  Maybe I'm projecting my own perspective but I don't imagine a significant number of subs sitting around weighing the pros and cons of kinky verses vanilla and deciding that kinky is the easier way to go.





OneMoreWaste -> RE: The most subtle misconception about female dominants (9/27/2008 2:40:36 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: PsyVamp
Who said anything about sex period?


Umm... Akasha did... in the original post... which I then quoted in the little box two lines above the sentence you took issue with...
I know I've breathed in a lot of fumes today, but that's not the kind of thing I normally hallucinate... the rest of y'all see it, right? [&:]

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wickad
As men are always sexually motivated (tongue in cheek here, going on what is a societal norm) and if dominant, always sexually aggressive, it would seem (to those who don't take the time to really think about it) that a Dominant woman would also be sexually aggressive.  On the flipside, it would also mean that a submissive man is passive and as such expected to not pursue the Dominant woman or the relationship itself.

Of course, most of us on this board see this to be rather silly but ... I think it's a simple case of inexperienced submissive men putting their societal assumptions and extrapolations off on Dominant women.


So it's silly to think that a FemDom would be sexually aggressive, because aggression is strictly linked to gender, never D/s orientation?

So does that mean that I'm actually female, and can start chasing all of the Lesbian Dommes on CM?




Steponme73 -> RE: The most subtle misconception about female dominants (9/27/2008 3:00:13 PM)

I think that it is the perception of the whole thing.  When a "Vanilla" man is interested in a "Vanilla" women he pursues her.  Therefore if a passive man shows interest in a dominant woman, he is expecting to be pursued.  Now, common sense plays a part here too.  There has to be chemistry, there has to be common grounds, they have to like each other and be attracted.  If all of that is there, then a passive man feels he has done what he needs to do, to get the ball rolling.  It is then up to the domiant woman to be the more aggressive of the two.  But again, I can't say it enough, Common sense has to play a major part.




undergroundsea -> RE: The most subtle misconception about female dominants (9/27/2008 3:44:09 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: AAkasha
As a result, a submissive man just merely must make contact with a dominant woman and state his availability, and she'll surely be interested in having her way with him, because not all men are willing to submit.


I recognize that some submissive men underestimate the importance of interpersonal attraction, or underestimate what they must do to be attractive. I also recognize that the amount of interpersonal attraction needed is related to the type of dynamic sought (romantic D/s companionship vs a houseboy arrangement). However, I do not buy the idea that submissive men think that simply making contact with a dominant woman and stating his availability is all that is needed because not all men are willing to submit--most submissive men are keenly aware of the Fm ratios.

quote:

I think this perception is what attracts many submissive men, because they want to be freed from the pressure of the pursuit - the couting, dating, initiating first kisses, saying the right thing, making sexual advances.  The fantasy is very attractive:  after all, dominant women take charge - so once her "femdom radar" tells her he is submissive, he's going to be pursued.

<snip>

My question is this: How many submissive men would still be interested in the idea of BDSM if they knew that it's just as difficult, if not more, to court and romance a woman who will dominate him?



I similarly disagree that submissive men are attracted to Fm because they want to be freed from the pressure of the pursuit. If this is the case, why do we have a deluge of emails whenever a domme joins collarme? An interest in submission in the BDSM context is one thing, and a passive personality is another thing. The two may occur together or they may not. For some submissive men, having the domme do the pursuit aligns with each their submissive philosophy and their general social make-up. For some, it does not.

I have been aware of my BDSM interest since as far back as I can remember. I have been aware of my BDSM interests before I acknowledged or realized I liked girls. I did not choose BDSM because I thought it would be easier.

I prefer to do the pursuit both for sake of my social philosophy and for sake of BDSM. In the past, an aggressive pursuit by a domme has turned me off for sake of space, and/or for sake of how the power by virtue of being sought affected the D/s dynamic.

quote:

The reality, as we ladies know, is that we are probably just as hard if not harder to court than a "vanilla" woman.


I agree. In my opinion, it is comparatively harder to court a domme for sake of ratios, for sake of lesser odds for compatibility due to a limited pool, and for any ambivalence that might arise about how to behave.

Cheers,

Sea




tweedydaddy -> RE: The most subtle misconception about female dominants (9/27/2008 5:23:47 PM)

The whole of male fantasy is based on misconception.
The biggest misconception is that they know what's going on.




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