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RE: "rescue package"? voted down - 9/29/2008 4:13:59 PM   
MsRobinSanders


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Fiscal Cooling...Cyclic or Man made?


Now open for debate...

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RE: "rescue package"? voted down - 9/29/2008 4:58:30 PM   
kdsub


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I just hope they have good soup in the soup kitchens..I like pea soup myself.

Butch

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RE: "rescue package"? voted down - 9/29/2008 5:01:50 PM   
slaveboyforyou


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I like clam chowder and spit pea with bacon. 

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RE: "rescue package"? voted down - 9/29/2008 5:11:15 PM   
servantforuse


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The market went down by about 8%, not 50%. Percentage wise it went down more in 1987. Not passing the bailout bill is bad for the short term, but probably good for the long term. Now the taxpayers will get a better deal and the price of oil will drop like a rock.

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RE: "rescue package"? voted down - 9/29/2008 5:16:37 PM   
Musicmystery


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The assets are still there. Just a question of who owns them, and how long we're willing to wait for market corrections long overdue (and whether we can afford to wait through the correction).

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RE: "rescue package"? voted down - 9/29/2008 5:31:08 PM   
Marc2b


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quote:

What now ?


We wait.

Relax people.  The world is not coming to an end.  It is simply changing.  Just like it always has and always will.

"What's comin' will come and we'll meet it when it does."
- Hagrid (Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire)

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RE: "rescue package"? voted down - 9/29/2008 5:33:41 PM   
slvemike4u


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Quoting Harry Potter leaves me less inclined to take your word for it...

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RE: "rescue package"? voted down - 9/29/2008 5:55:02 PM   
cyberdude611


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And for the time being at least....the free market economy has been saved!

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RE: "rescue package"? voted down - 9/29/2008 6:19:16 PM   
kittinSol


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quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou

I like clam chowder and split pea with bacon. 


Me too, if you replace the clam with haddock, the split peas with lentils, and the bacon with italian garlic sausage  .



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RE: "rescue package"? voted down - 9/29/2008 6:54:42 PM   
Marc2b


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quote:

Fiscal Cooling...Cyclic or Man made?


Both.

Man made in the sense that the economy consists of every interaction (and non-interaction) between human beings and their environment. One corporation buying another corporation for billions of dollars is the economy. You choosing to go to restaurant A instead of restaurant B is the economy. Me going to bed an hour earlier than usual (less electricity usage) is the economy. Seeksfemslave buying a blowup doll is the economy. Everyone on the CM Boards, just by being on the CM Boards, is the economy. All us and everything we do is the economy. It is a vast interconnected network of cause and effect, driven by needs (real and perceived); desires (or the lack thereof!) ranging from the mundane to the passionate; and happenstance (e.g. the weather). To truly try and comprehend it all is mind boggling.

It appears chaotic yet out of this seeming chaos there emerges order. This order is the product of human instincts, social mores, cultures, and laws. I want to make it clear that by order I do not mean that everything works perfectly for everyone all the time (obviously it doesn’t). Rather I mean that systems develop. The trillions of decisions and actions that the human race makes every minute of every day (the micro level, so to speak) become trends in the macro level of business and the economies of nations (and of the world). Your decision to buy Ben and Jerry’s Ice cream instead of Edy’s has a tiny ripple effect on the price of milk, the price of other ingredients, and even the availability of jobs (as a result of profitability) at both companies. Your one pint may not make that much of a difference but if you are one of millions who prefer Ben and Jerry’s...
Systems seek equilibrium (which is not the same thing as harmony). What is economic good news for some is likely to be economic bad news for others. An example: Not to long ago, Canadian money reached par with American money for the first time in a long time. I was in Stratford, Ontario at the time and the Canadian newspapers and news shows were positively gloating over it. They portrayed it as great economic news for Canada and bed economic news for America. I’m also quite sure that the waitress had a little smirk when she handed me back $4.50 in Canadian Money from a $20.00 American bill. I understand. Canada has had to listen to the jokes for years (I’m guilty of making some of them myself). Still, I was a little disappointed that so many failed to see the truth. Canadian money reaching par was good economic news for some Canadians (for importers it was a price drop for American goods) and bad economic news for other Canadians (for exporters it meant that their goods cost more for Americans). For Americans it was also a mixed blessing, for exactly the opposite reasons (good for the exporters, bad for the importers).

That’s just one example of many. Whenever something goes "wrong" in one place it usually means something is going "right" somewhere else. Of course, things going wrong for some people and going right for others affects their decisions. The process continues. What is often called the business cycle is merely these never ending fluctuations. The current economic "crisis" may, on the surface, appear to be one sided – wrong for everybody – but in fact the process is continuing even here. A gapping hole of money (so to speak) has appeared in the system. Other money is poised to fill the hole. The system is seeking equilibrium.

Could the system one day (hopefully not today) not achieve equilibrium and collapse? Certainly. First, the simple fact is that although systems seek equilibrium, there is no certainty that they will. Systems usually achieve equilibrium (or at least a semblance of it – in one sense they never can because change is the only constant in the universe) but there are no guarantees. One thing is certain. Even if the current economic system we call the American economy (and the world economy) does collapse, humans will keep on doing the things they do (eating sleeping, fucking, fighting, looking for entertainment) and new systems will develop to replace the old.

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RE: "rescue package"? voted down - 9/29/2008 6:59:52 PM   
Marc2b


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quote:

Quoting Harry Potter leaves me less inclined to take your word for it...


I take great quotes from wherever I can find them, and Harry Potter is a treasure trove of them.

So is my favorite Sci-Fi show, Babylon 5, from which I get this particular favorite:

"To deny the other is to deny ourselves."
-G'kar


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RE: "rescue package"? voisted down - 9/29/2008 9:53:14 PM   
corysub


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quote:

ORIGINAL: servantforuse

The market went down by about 8%, not 50%. Percentage wise it went down more in 1987. Not passing the bailout bill is bad for the short term, but probably good for the long term. Now the taxpayers will get a better deal and the price of oil will drop like a rock.


Crude oil i down from about $147 to the mid-90's.  It was down big today in the face of the defeat of the revised Bill to try to save the banking system.  Over a $trillion was lost in the market today, not from just "fat cats" but plain old people who have savings and retirement money in 401K's, mutual funds, and other similar investments. 

At best, todays defeat was a pyrric victory for the working class.  With further partisan bickering in Congress it's not the multi-millionaire's who will be "pinched" but the average working slob who pays his taxes, pays his mortgge, pays his student loans.....and now will see his credit card line cut, the ability to get a loan to buy or a deal to lease a car become difficult,the student loan market evaporate as banks feel the pince of high cost borrowings,  the ability to get a mortgage to buy a house become almost impossible, and on and on, as credtit becomes tight and in some cases...unavailable.  And so the "public" has won the battle to prevent the so called "bailoout" of the financial system, and lost their standard of lliving and the future success of their kids if nothing is done in the immediate future.  The time for "political posturing" and making debate points is over...it's time for real leadership in Washington, not poll gatherers.

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RE: "rescue package"? voisted down - 9/30/2008 3:18:15 PM   
Musicmystery


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Well I'm all for the drop in crude.

Stock market "losses" happen only when people sell those assets in an underpriced market. Those companies have all the same assets they had before the drop. The people who BOUGHT those stocks will earn large gains whenever the market recovers.

Similarly with crude---that's speculation in the futures market. And a drop will take the wind out of Russia's and Iran's sails.

The credit market is another story. Because of the murky nature of bundled sub-prime mortgage securities, recklessly snatched up in the past while chasing higher yield but ignoring fundamentals, the reliability of financial institutions isn't clear. Consequently, they are nervous about loaning each other money (which normally greases the Money Market wheels), afraid they may abruptly lose that money if an institution fails. Unable to maintain cash flow, institutions then indeed fail. This is indeed a serious problem, and if severe enough (trouble is, we just don't know), for a time money for "Main St." loans will dry up, slowing the economy rather severely (as American lives on credit, consumers and business).

< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 9/30/2008 3:19:02 PM >

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RE: "rescue package"? voisted down - 9/30/2008 6:45:30 PM   
DarkSteven


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For God's sake, why SHOULD it have passed?  The most mendacious Administration in history tells us there will be a complete meltdown unless we follow an insane plan that ignores the problem's origin and has no provisions to prevent it happening again.  In the original version, Paulson is given unlimited authority to spend $700 billion dollars.  He flat out refuses to commit that the plan will fix the problem, or that the price tag will not go up.




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RE: "rescue package"? voisted down - 9/30/2008 6:55:23 PM   
servantforuse


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The market was up by almost 500 points today. This is not the end of the world.

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RE: "rescue package"? voisted down - 9/30/2008 7:12:15 PM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

For God's sake, why SHOULD it have passed?  The most mendacious Administration in history tells us there will be a complete meltdown unless we follow an insane plan that ignores the problem's origin and has no provisions to prevent it happening again.  In the original version, Paulson is given unlimited authority to spend $700 billion dollars.  He flat out refuses to commit that the plan will fix the problem, or that the price tag will not go up.





Not sure this is meant in response to me, as I agree. The plan is severely flawed, and a proposal from an administration that likes to push its agenda through "crisis."

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RE: "rescue package"? voted down - 9/30/2008 8:19:27 PM   
LookieNoNookie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

What now ?


We go out for ice cream.

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RE: "rescue package"? voisted down - 9/30/2008 8:41:01 PM   
Marc2b


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quote:

The market was up by almost 500 points today. This is not the end of the world.


I wondered how long it would be before someone mentioned that. The market being up is good news but we shouldn’t read to much into it. This is mostly people looking for bargains. Still it reflects a confidence in the market and confidence (or lack of it) is one of the fundamental driving forces of the market.

To use a football analogy. It's the start of the fourth quarter. Our team is down by 35 points. We open the fourth quarter with a kickoff return for a touchdown. Hooray for us! ...but we still got a ways to go.

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Do you know what the most awesome thing about being an Atheist is? You're not required to hate anybody!

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RE: "rescue package"? voisted down - 9/30/2008 9:17:43 PM   
Musicmystery


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Today it rained. Surely this means it will rain forever.

The market goes up. The market goes down. It's people trading. And for everyone who sells in a panic, a buyer is happy to snatch up the bargain. For everyone exuberantly buying in a bubble, someone else is happily reaping profit. As long as that happens, we have a market---and its value is meaningless. The real value is in the long term asset and its potential---that doesn't really swing wildly day to day, just the imaginary value of speculative traders looking for short term profit. Wise investors these past few days did what they usually do---nothing but hold.

The credit market issue is different, as financial institutions are reluctant to lend to each other----not that the market is down, but rather that there increasingly is NO market (insufficient willing lenders for would be borrowers, despite terms---which are largely set by the Fed in this instance anyway)--i.e., there's money to loan, but not institutions willing to loan it, making credit tight to impossible.

Tomorrow's forecast calls for thunderstorms. Later in the week, sunshine.

And I'm sure it will rain again. But not forever.

The stock/commodity markets are a mirror of short term confidence, nothing more.

The credit market issue questions whether we'll still be able to have weather.

< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 9/30/2008 9:20:25 PM >

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RE: "rescue package"? voisted down - 9/30/2008 9:54:04 PM   
UncleNasty


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One of my favorite quotes comes from Bazooka Joe:

Take plenty of time to make a quick decision.

I'll take wisdom from anywhere I can find it.

Uncle Nasty

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 40
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