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RE: We HATES Her - 10/6/2008 1:58:54 PM

FirmhandKY

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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

Name three major "conservatives" that disagree with your beliefs, yet who you find to be principled in their disagreement.

My brother, my sister, and a workout buddy who has a brother that is a general in Iraq whom I respect his views because of this. He has become a very good friend in the last year. I agree with all these people about some things and disagree with them on others... but they all three are very fond of me and know my character as I know theirs and share their love and friendship.

I tell ya what, I am an independent, and I am not likely to change that. As long as the government stays out of my vagina, my bedroom, and my religion and quits giving my money to corporations I am happy.

Who am I voting for...Obama, I am a member of a union just like my Daddy... and I support labor

My job is done here.

Firm

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RE: We HATES Her - 10/6/2008 2:21:40 PM

TreasureKY

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quote:

ORIGINAL: brainiacsub

... Sarah Palin. She has been quoted as saying that US soldiers are "on a task from God" and that she wishes "God's will be done" with regard to the war.

It's a shame when news anchors like Charlie Gibson get things wrong. People have a tendency to cite their errors as truth...

Here's what Sarah Palin said:

"Pray for our military men and women who are striving to do what is right. Also, for this country, that our leaders, our national leaders, are sending them out on a task that is from God. That's what we have to make sure that we're praying for, that there is a plan and that that plan is God's plan."

You can view the video for yourself on YouTube.

There's a huge difference between saying "our troops are on a task from God" and "pray that our leaders are sending the troops on a task from God".

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RE: We HATES Her - 10/6/2008 2:25:13 PM

FirmhandKY

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quote:

ORIGINAL: brainiacsub

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: subtee

~spit take~

http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=910473

Firm, I took this quote from the link pasted above:

"My addition - a component of spirituality - means that while I believe in the rationality of man, I also believe that non-rational beliefs are an important part of the human makeup, and critical in making and keeping a human civil society.

This makes me "pro-religion" in other words, and the conclusion that ethics and morals can't always simply be "rational" things arrived at by logic. Logic can lead us astray from important truths at times, and cause horrendous suffering and destruction."

George Bush is "pro-religion" also. So is Sarah Palin. She has been quoted as saying that US soldiers are "on a task from God" and that she wishes "God's will be done" with regard to the war. It is not their religion that is the problem, but the fact that people who are deeply religious have fundamental flaws in their thinking. They will abandon reason and logic for faith, and this is the cause of the most horrendous suffering and destruction in the history of all humanity.

I am curious to know what "fundamental truths" you believe can only be satisfied by religious belief?

brainiac,

It is my contention that "belief" is an inherent part of the human personality, grown and nurtured by the evolutionary process.

You can (and I often do) substitute the term "world view" for religion. Religious beliefs are only a subset of "world view", in which (usually) there is a deity and a structured view of morality.

But a "world view" doesn't have to be "religious", and there are many world views that specifically deny religiosity - even when their beliefs match all the particulars absent only a deity. Atheism is a "world view", based on beliefs. Even "science" is a world view, based on beliefs.

Human secularism is no less a "world view" or belief - or if you take out the belief in a deity - a religion.

I've yet to see a modern, non-religious world view successfully be the basis of a civil society, therefore I'm cautious and cynical about the possibility.

Therefore "religion friendly".

As to the particulars of your post about Palin and Bush ... you seem to place yourself in the modern human secular world view (just as a guess), for you seem to see belief in religion as a negative thing.

And you are basing at least part of your negative remarks on "facts" that are simply not true: "She has been quoted as saying that US soldiers are "on a task from God" and that she wishes "God's will be done" with regard to the war."

Yes, she has been so "quoted" ... but it isn't a "fact" that she meant what you seem to think she meant.

Finally, your position here:

... but the fact that people who are deeply religious have fundamental flaws in their thinking. They will abandon reason and logic for faith, and this is the cause of the most horrendous suffering and destruction in the history of all humanity.

I'd make the counter argument that more people have suffered, been murdered and enslaved by those who claim that "religion is the opium of the masses", than have all the "religious wars" since time began.

That's my belief, anyway.

Firm

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RE: We HATES Her - 10/6/2008 2:45:18 PM

brainiacsub

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TreasureKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: brainiacsub

... Sarah Palin. She has been quoted as saying that US soldiers are "on a task from God" and that she wishes "God's will be done" with regard to the war.

It's a shame when news anchors like Charlie Gibson get things wrong. People have a tendency to cite their errors as truth...

Here's what Sarah Palin said:

"Pray for our military men and women who are striving to do what is right. Also, for this country, that our leaders, our national leaders, are sending them out on a task that is from God. That's what we have to make sure that we're praying for, that there is a plan and that that plan is God's plan."

You can view the video for yourself on YouTube.

There's a huge difference between saying "our troops are on a task from God" and "pray that our leaders are sending the troops on a task from God".

I wasn't quoting Gibson. I was referring to the YouTube video you just mentioned which has been played over and over on cable news. You seem to be missing the larger point because you wish to support Palin. This war, our foreign policy, who wins, who loses, who lives, who dies, has absolutely nothing to do with God. These things are entirely attributable to the actions of flawed human beings. I find it interesting how many Christian fundamentalists believe that this war is justifiable because Islam is an evil religion and Muslims are going to hell because they have not received salvation through Christ. Many believe God is on our side. I wonder how different things would be if Iraq was a Christian nation and we were killing other Christians. Consider the religious rights' support for Israel - it is not political or even moral in nature, but borne of a belief that Israel is fulfilling Biblical prophesy.

It is not Palin's exact words that I - and many - object to. It is her flawed thought processes and the resultant ideas and policies.

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RE: We HATES Her - 10/6/2008 3:02:53 PM

FirmhandKY

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quote:

ORIGINAL: brainiacsub

quote:

ORIGINAL: TreasureKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: brainiacsub

... Sarah Palin. She has been quoted as saying that US soldiers are "on a task from God" and that she wishes "God's will be done" with regard to the war.

It's a shame when news anchors like Charlie Gibson get things wrong. People have a tendency to cite their errors as truth...

Here's what Sarah Palin said:

"Pray for our military men and women who are striving to do what is right. Also, for this country, that our leaders, our national leaders, are sending them out on a task that is from God. That's what we have to make sure that we're praying for, that there is a plan and that that plan is God's plan."

You can view the video for yourself on YouTube.

There's a huge difference between saying "our troops are on a task from God" and "pray that our leaders are sending the troops on a task from God".

I wasn't quoting Gibson. I was referring to the YouTube video you just mentioned which has been played over and over on cable news. You seem to be missing the larger point because you wish to support Palin. This war, our foreign policy, who wins, who loses, who lives, who dies, has absolutely nothing to do with God. These things are entirely attributable to the actions of flawed human beings. I find it interesting how many Christian fundamentalists believe that this war is justifiable because Islam is an evil religion and Muslims are going to hell because they have not received salvation through Christ. Many believe God is on our side. I wonder how different things would be if Iraq was a Christian nation and we were killing other Christians. Consider the religious rights' support for Israel - it is not political or even moral in nature, but borne of a belief that Israel is fulfilling Biblical prophesy.

It is not Palin's exact words that I - and many - object to. It is her flawed thought processes and the resultant ideas and policies.

In other words, you are anti-religious (because in your world view "religion" is a bad thing), and do not wish to understand the difference between someone who is convinced that we are at war "at God's behest", and one who hopes that what we are doing is not against the will of God.

Since that distinction was explained to you, and you discount it, it simply appears to me that it doesn't really matter what Palin believes, or says: she has a religious belief -> she's incompetent to make decisions of any import.

Firm

PS. It is not your exact words that I - and many - object to. It is your flawed thought processes and the resultant ideas and policies.

(don't bother me with facts - my mind is already made up!)

< Message edited by FirmhandKY -- 10/6/2008 3:06:45 PM >

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RE: We HATES Her - 10/6/2008 4:05:12 PM

subsong

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I don't hate her at all . In fact , if I block out the idea of her murdering wolves from planes , I can almost find some likeable things about her . I just don't think she should be anywhere near the White House - EVER. Except maybe as a tourist coming to learn abit about how it all works ...

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RE: We HATES Her - 10/6/2008 4:05:47 PM

brainiacsub

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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

[snip...]
In other words, you are anti-religious (because in your world view "religion" is a bad thing), and do not wish to understand the difference between someone who is convinced that we are at war "at God's behest", and one who hopes that what we are doing is not against the will of God.

Since that distinction was explained to you, and you discount it, it simply appears to me that it doesn't really matter what Palin believes, or says: she has a religious belief -> she's incompetent to make decisions of any import.

Firm

PS. It is not your exact words that I - and many - object to. It is your flawed thought processes and the resultant ideas and policies.

(don't bother me with facts - my mind is already made up!)

I am against any "world view" that claims to be the mouthpiece of God.

I didn't discount the distinction made by Treasure, I just didn't believe it was a distinction. I offered my thoughts on the matter: It is irrelevent whether she is "someone who is convinced that we are at war "at God's behest", and one who hopes that what we are doing is not against the will of God." God has nothing to do with it.

As for whether I believe that Palin is incapable of making any decisions because she is religious, the answer is no. But I don't believe she is capable of making decisions that conflict with her very narrow "world view." But neither was George Bush and they share the exact same human foibles.

I understand Palin more than you give me credit for. I used to be just like her. When I shared her "world view" I was a bigot, a homophobe, a sexist, intolerant, myopic, ideological, and quite positive that I would be rewarded for my beliefs in heaven. Now that I am an Atheist and Secular Humanist, I am a better person. If you contend that it is our "world views" that define our morality and give us insight in to important truths, then no, I am not anti -"world view", but I believe that mine is better than hers.

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RE: We HATES Her - 10/6/2008 4:25:20 PM

FirmhandKY

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quote:

ORIGINAL: brainiacsub

.. but I believe that mine is better than hers.

And this, my dear, can quickly become the basis of intolerance and dehumanization all by itself.

"Liberals" are suppose to be "tolerant" and "open-minded" about others beliefs. Sadly, I find this to be the exception to many "liberal" minded people rather than the rule.

I suspect that if you were " .. a bigot, a homophobe, a sexist, intolerant, myopic, ideological, ..." when you were a Christian, that, other than your specific targets of hatred, you might not be much different now that you have flipped over to "the dark side".

Firm

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RE: We HATES Her - 10/6/2008 4:36:07 PM

rulemylife

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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

In other words, you are anti-religious (because in your world view "religion" is a bad thing), and do not wish to understand the difference between someone who is convinced that we are at war "at God's behest", and one who hopes that what we are doing is not against the will of God.

Since that distinction was explained to you, and you discount it, it simply appears to me that it doesn't really matter what Palin believes, or says: she has a religious belief -> she's incompetent to make decisions of any import.

Firm

How wonderful that we now have someone who can explain the meaning of Sarah's words.

Do you two hang out and hunt moose together?

I mean you must have some reference for this amazing ability to understand what her meanings are.

Maybe you should publish a Sarahspeak-to-English translation guide for the majority of us who have no idea what the hell she is saying most of the time.

< Message edited by rulemylife -- 10/6/2008 4:38:52 PM >

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RE: We HATES Her - 10/6/2008 4:37:23 PM

brainiacsub

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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

In other words, you are anti-religious (because in your world view "religion" is a bad thing), and do not wish to understand the difference between someone who is convinced that we are at war "at God's behest", and one who hopes that what we are doing is not against the will of God.

Since that distinction was explained to you, and you discount it, it simply appears to me that it doesn't really matter what Palin believes, or says: she has a religious belief -> she's incompetent to make decisions of any import.

Firm

PS. It is not your exact words that I - and many - object to. It is your flawed thought processes and the resultant ideas and policies.

(don't bother me with facts - my mind is already made up!)

btw Firm...I have to say that I just haven't figured you out. You are articulate and smart...mostly. I haven't determined whether you are a nutter, who truly believes his own nuttiness, but recognizes that most people can't swallow it, so you wrap the hard nut in something more soft and palatable like cheese, and we are left standing around wondering whether we liked it or not.

I often don't know if you are defending a position or playing devil's advocate. Either way, this has been interesting.

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RE: We HATES Her - 10/6/2008 4:39:49 PM

TreasureKY

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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

I suspect that if you were " .. a bigot, a homophobe, a sexist, intolerant, myopic, ideological, ..." when you were a Christian, that, other than your specific targets of hatred, you might not be much different now that you have flipped over to "the dark side".

lol... I thought the exact same thing reading her words.

Of course, you know, it's perfectly acceptable to be bigoted, intolerant and hateful to Christians. They're all misguided idiots.

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RE: We HATES Her - 10/6/2008 4:48:11 PM

rulemylife

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TreasureKY

There's a huge difference between saying "our troops are on a task from God" and "pray that our leaders are sending the troops on a task from God".

So, it's ok if our leaders believe they are sending troops on a task from God as long as our troops aren't really on a task from God.

Ooooooooooooooookayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy!

Glad you cleared that up.

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RE: We HATES Her - 10/6/2008 4:57:31 PM

brainiacsub

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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: brainiacsub

.. but I believe that mine is better than hers.

And this, my dear, can quickly become the basis of intolerance and dehumanization all by itself.

"Liberals" are suppose to be "tolerant" and "open-minded" about others beliefs. Sadly, I find this to be the exception to many "liberal" minded people rather than the rule.

I suspect that if you were " .. a bigot, a homophobe, a sexist, intolerant, myopic, ideological, ..." when you were a Christian, that, other than your specific targets of hatred, you might not be much different now that you have flipped over to "the dark side".

Firm

You have used a tiny snippet of my quote and taken it out of context, but I forgive you.

I am not liberal. I am a very moderate Independent, and I was raised in a very conservative home and still hold on dearly to many of my conservative traditions and values, but belief that I know the will of God is not one of them. That hardly makes me liberal...it makes me enlightened.

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RE: We HATES Her - 10/6/2008 5:06:52 PM

TNstepsout

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TreasureKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: brainiacsub

... Sarah Palin. She has been quoted as saying that US soldiers are "on a task from God" and that she wishes "God's will be done" with regard to the war.

It's a shame when news anchors like Charlie Gibson get things wrong. People have a tendency to cite their errors as truth...

Here's what Sarah Palin said:

"Pray for our military men and women who are striving to do what is right. Also, for this country, that our leaders, our national leaders, are sending them out on a task that is from God. That's what we have to make sure that we're praying for, that there is a plan and that that plan is God's plan."

You can view the video for yourself on YouTube.

There's a huge difference between saying "our troops are on a task from God" and "pray that our leaders are sending the troops on a task from God".

Please explain the difference because I don't see it.

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RE: We HATES Her - 10/6/2008 5:13:23 PM

juliaoceania

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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

Name three major "conservatives" that disagree with your beliefs, yet who you find to be principled in their disagreement.

My brother, my sister, and a workout buddy who has a brother that is a general in Iraq whom I respect his views because of this. He has become a very good friend in the last year. I agree with all these people about some things and disagree with them on others... but they all three are very fond of me and know my character as I know theirs and share their love and friendship.

I tell ya what, I am an independent, and I am not likely to change that. As long as the government stays out of my vagina, my bedroom, and my religion and quits giving my money to corporations I am happy.

Who am I voting for...Obama, I am a member of a union just like my Daddy... and I support labor

My job is done here.

Firm

Yeah, have the last word, it is so very important to you after all

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RE: We HATES Her - 10/6/2008 5:14:50 PM

juliaoceania

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quote:

but belief that I know the will of God is not one of them. That hardly makes me liberal...it makes me enlightened.

Some people would not know enlightenment if it bit them on the ass

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RE: We HATES Her - 10/6/2008 5:17:52 PM

brainiacsub

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TreasureKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

I suspect that if you were " .. a bigot, a homophobe, a sexist, intolerant, myopic, ideological, ..." when you were a Christian, that, other than your specific targets of hatred, you might not be much different now that you have flipped over to "the dark side".

lol... I thought the exact same thing reading her words.

Of course, you know, it's perfectly acceptable to be bigoted, intolerant and hateful to Christians. They're all misguided idiots.

I don't believe I have ever demonstrated that I am bigoted, intolerant or hateful to Christians since I have been participating on these forums. My position has always been:

to tell my own story in the hopes of relating to someone else
expose the hypocracy and intolerance of fundamentalist beliefs
fervently advocate against any public policy or law enacted under the assumption that it is God's will

If you can find examples of where I have been bigoted or hatelful, as opposed to just disagreeable, then I will gladly apologize.

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RE: We HATES Her - 10/6/2008 5:22:35 PM

TreasureKY

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quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: TreasureKY

There's a huge difference between saying "our troops are on a task from God" and "pray that our leaders are sending the troops on a task from God".

So, it's ok if our leaders believe they are sending troops on a task from God as long as our troops aren't really on a task from God.

Ooooooooooooooookayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy!

Glad you cleared that up.

I can see why you have a hard time keeping up with Sarah Palin and the English language.

One is a definitive statement, the other is a supplication. Kinda like the difference between saying, "I made the right decision" and "I hope I make the right decision."

Is that too hard for you to understand?

Edited to add:

quote:

ORIGINAL: TNstepsout

Please explain the difference because I don't see it.

TN, please see my explanation above. Please let me know if it's still too difficult for you to understand.

< Message edited by TreasureKY -- 10/6/2008 5:26:35 PM >

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RE: We HATES Her - 10/6/2008 5:35:48 PM

TNstepsout

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quote:

TN, please see my explanation above. Please let me know if it's still too difficult for you to understand.

Yup- still too difficult, but I'm sure pleased you're here to "splain" it to me. Backward heathen that I am.

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RE: We HATES Her - 10/6/2008 6:07:56 PM

TreasureKY

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quote:

ORIGINAL: brainiacsub

I don't believe I have ever demonstrated that I am bigoted, intolerant or hateful to Christians since I have been participating on these forums. My position has always been:
to tell my own story in the hopes of relating to someone else

expose the hypocracy and intolerance of fundamentalist beliefs

fervently advocate against any public policy or law enacted under the assumption that it is God's will
If you can find examples of where I have been bigoted or hatelful, as opposed to just disagreeable, then I will gladly apologize.

I truly believe that it would serve no purpose whatsoever to try to show you and I doubt anything I say will penetrate your faith in your own enlightenment. However, I'll leave you with some definitions of bigot...

A prejudiced person who is intolerant of any opinions differing from his own;
One strongly loyal to one's own social group, and irrationally intolerant or disdainful of others;

If you can reflect on just your own words here...

quote:

ORIGINAL: brainiacsub

It is not Palin's exact words that I - and many - object to. It is her flawed thought processes and the resultant ideas and policies.

and here...

quote:

ORIGINAL: brainiacsub

It is not their religion that is the problem, but the fact that people who are deeply religious have fundamental flaws in their thinking. They will abandon reason and logic for faith, and this is the cause of the most horrendous suffering and destruction in the history of all humanity.

and especially this...

quote:

ORIGINAL: brainiacsub
expose the hypocracy and intolerance of fundamentalist beliefs

fervently advocate against any public policy or law enacted under the assumption that it is God's will

and truthfully say that you have been respectful of Christians and supportive of their right to have their own beliefs and world-view... then you can sleep easy tonight.

Edited to add:

It's one thing to say that you don't agree with someone's views... it's even okay to say that you believe you are right and that they are wrong... but to denigrate the intelligence and thought processes of an entire group of people just because you don't believe what they believe is bigoted.

< Message edited by TreasureKY -- 10/6/2008 6:25:19 PM >

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