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RE: Joe The Plumber: Obama Tax Plan 'Infuriates Me' - 10/19/2008 11:48:57 AM   
Naga


Posts: 147
Joined: 10/11/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

Naga reading comprehension is indeed a wonderful thing.....go back and read my post.Where did I deny that Bil Laden was an ally during the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan....quick answer for you ,nowhere.What I did do is point out to you that bringing up that salient point.....and than in the next breath placing sole responsibility on the Clinton administration for 9/11 is ridiculous.
Care to explain to me how the Reagan administration holds no responsibility ,when they armed bin Laden....or how the Bush administration bears no responsibility when 9/11 occurred during his administration
Care to explain how you come to blame solely the Clinton administration (could it be because it was a Democrat's administration)when by any measure the fingerprints of both the preceding and subsequent administration are all over 9/11


It is difficult to point a finger at Reagan when it is largely because of broken promises by later administrations that caused bin Laden to hate the United States and led to his radicalization. bin Laden, thanks to his wealth, was perfectly capable of arming himself. If we could have kept him an ally, we would not have the issues we are having now. We can't blame those decisions on Reagan's administration.

I blame the Clinton administration because he had over six years of intelligence that he ignored about terrorists in the United States and refused to allow the FBI to bring them in. I blame Clinton because he ignore terrorism his entire administration. I blame Clinton because he actively handicapped the intelligence community in the United States. I blamed Clinton because he tried to appease bin Laden even after he actively worked against the United States. I blame Clinton because he was knowingly culpable.

I don't blame Bush because he was actively trying to reactive the intelligence and military community from the damage previously done to it. I don't blame Bush because things improved and terrorism has gone down under his watch.

I don't give a rip who is a democrat verus a republican. I am a libertarian. All of them fall short in my view. But I do blame someone who actively works against American interest and will support someone who actively works for America's interests.

quote:

As far as economics,I have read your post's ,I am not interested in the least of any critique you might have concerning my knowledge on this or any other subject....ignorance in some cases is truly bliss....good luck to you on that!


If you wish to be ignorant, so be it. I don't understand the urge, but you seem to be in quite a company when it comes to supporting Obama and pursuing his socialist agendas.

(in reply to slvemike4u)
Profile   Post #: 301
RE: Joe The Plumber: Obama Tax Plan 'Infuriates Me' - 10/19/2008 11:55:10 AM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
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quote:

Reagan when it is largely because of broken promises by later administrations that caused bin Laden to hate the United States and led to his radicalization. bin Laden, thanks to his wealth, was perfectly capable of arming himself.


Then giving bin Laden money nonetheless was stupid and pointless. Poor judgment. Also, bin Laden has long been an enemy of Saudi Arabia, a country the U.S. embraces (because of oil, ignoring their social difficulties).

quote:

Bush...was actively trying to reactive the intelligence and military community from the damage previously done to it.


Evidence?

Hell, all he and Rumsfeld tried to do is run the military---not to mention the VA---on the cheap, ignoring Pentagon leaders. They should have listened to Powell.

Further, he certainly didn't listen to that intelligence one he got it----in fact, ignored it and/or cooked it.



< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 10/19/2008 11:56:23 AM >

(in reply to Naga)
Profile   Post #: 302
RE: Joe The Plumber: Obama Tax Plan 'Infuriates Me' - 10/19/2008 11:57:47 AM   
slvemike4u


Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
Status: offline 		Naga if what I am qualifies,in your mind at least,as ignorance...then so be it.As I said in an earlier post I have neither asked, nor do I want ,any help from you in the furtherance of my education.While I am sure you have referred to me twice as ignorant with the best of intentions I will muddle along as best I can without any assistance from you...thanks for your attempt to educate me,but I will simply do the best I can as I am.....good luck and be well....Mike

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(in reply to Naga)
Profile   Post #: 303
RE: Joe The Plumber: Obama Tax Plan 'Infuriates Me' - 10/19/2008 1:03:48 PM   
Naga


Posts: 147
Joined: 10/11/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Then giving bin Laden money nonetheless was stupid and pointless. Poor judgment. Also, bin Laden has long been an enemy of Saudi Arabia, a country the U.S. embraces (because of oil, ignoring their social difficulties).


20/20 hindsight. At the time, bin Laden was the Saudi's recomendation. He was Saudi by nationality and passport and part of the ruling class. It is easy to say that Reagan made mistakes then. But at the time, at least it was an attempt to address the issues in that part of the world.

quote:

Evidence?

Hell, all he and Rumsfeld tried to do is run the military---not to mention the VA---on the cheap, ignoring Pentagon leaders. They should have listened to Powell.

Further, he certainly didn't listen to that intelligence one he got it----in fact, ignored it and/or cooked it.


Why did Clinton turn down the offer of bin Laden being handed to him? The Sudanese had already done the same thing with Calos the Jackal for the French. bin Laden was already responsible for the attack on the USS Cole, for example. Why ignore a gift like that?

Why establish a secretary to run interference with daily intelligence meetings? Why refuse to meet with your own intelligence staff? Never mind loosing the nuclear codes....

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 304
RE: Joe The Plumber: Obama Tax Plan 'Infuriates Me' - 10/19/2008 1:20:58 PM   
BitaTruble


Posts: 9779
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline 		"I cannot support a tax cut in which so many of the benefits go to the most fortunate among us at the expense of middle-class Americans who most need tax relief."

Can someone please tell me what the hell is wrong with this?


_____________________________

"Oh, so it's just like
Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."


(in reply to Naga)
Profile   Post #: 305
RE: Joe The Plumber: Obama Tax Plan 'Infuriates Me' - 10/19/2008 2:58:32 PM   
Naga


Posts: 147
Joined: 10/11/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble

"I cannot support a tax cut in which so many of the benefits go to the most fortunate among us at the expense of middle-class Americans who most need tax relief."

Can someone please tell me what the hell is wrong with this?



Yes, it is wonderful rhetoric, but it ignores the reality of the situation. It ignores the fact that jobs come from "rich" folks investing their money. If you take away their motivation to invest in business, you kill jobs. That affects everyone.

Taxes act as a brake on the economy. The more you tax people, especially the rich, the more you slow down growth and encourage a depression.

(in reply to BitaTruble)
Profile   Post #: 306
RE: Joe The Plumber: Obama Tax Plan 'Infuriates Me' - 10/19/2008 3:49:05 PM   
auburnvixen


Posts: 92
Joined: 11/19/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit

As someone who qualifies in the low income tax bracket and would benefit from it greatly, I am opposed to on the grounds of principle.

I don't want anyone else to pick up my percentage of the cost of this country and certainly don't need or want a handout, because I haven't reached a point in my life where I have achieved a large degree of financial success.

And when I get to that point, I certainly don't want anyone negating the value of my achievements by telling me I NEED to share the wealth of my hard earned success.


I <3 MadRabbit!

_____________________________

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If you're not taking flak, you're not over the target.
'Change' is not a destination, just as 'hope' is not a strategy. - Rudy Giuliani

(in reply to MadRabbit)
Profile   Post #: 307
RE: Joe The Plumber: Obama Tax Plan 'Infuriates Me' - 10/19/2008 3:51:21 PM   
Owner59


Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Naga


quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble

"I cannot support a tax cut in which so many of the benefits go to the most fortunate among us at the expense of middle-class Americans who most need tax relief."

Can someone please tell me what the hell is wrong with this?



Yes, it is wonderful rhetoric, but it ignores the reality of the situation. It ignores the fact that jobs come from "rich" folks investing their money. If you take away their motivation to invest in business, you kill jobs. That affects everyone.

Taxes act as a brake on the economy. The more you tax people, especially the rich, the more you slow down growth and encourage a depression.


Dude,that is sooooo last century.

The trickle down theory has been proven wrong over the last 8 years.Thanx George.

Rich people don`t create jobs,any more that you or I.

They avoid paying taxes,put businesses off shore,hide money in off shore accounts and game the system.

Clinton raised taxes on the wealthiest 5% and we had 8 straight years of growth and prosperity,where the poor/middle class got richer and the rich got richer,both.

Why all these bleeding hearts, crying and bleeding over the tax rate of millionaires, baffles me.

Those poor up-trodden rich people,so put upon.

Added,when the Bush tax cuts expire,any of the "principled"folks out there are free to send some money directly to a rich person, to make up for it.If principal is so important to you.

< Message edited by Owner59 -- 10/19/2008 3:59:57 PM >

_____________________________

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President Obama

(in reply to Naga)
Profile   Post #: 308
RE: Joe The Plumber: Obama Tax Plan 'Infuriates Me' - 10/19/2008 4:20:12 PM   
Naga


Posts: 147
Joined: 10/11/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

Dude,that is sooooo last century.

The trickle down theory has been proven wrong over the last 8 years.Thanx George.



Evidence? Sources?

quote:

Rich people don`t create jobs,any more that you or I.


Who does? And who pays for it? And actually I do. Maybe you don't, but that is all you can speak for.

quote:

They avoid paying taxes,put businesses off shore,hide money in off shore accounts and game the system.


Forced into that by the one of the worst tax systems in the world. Taxation is violence; theft at gun point by government. You are always justified in protecting yourself from violence.

quote:

Clinton raised taxes on the wealthiest 5% and we had 8 straight years of growth and prosperity,where the poor/middle class got richer and the rich got richer,both.


False growth that was not supported by the system, which has since collapsed. We are right in the middle of that right now.

quote:

Why all these bleeding hearts, crying and bleeding over the tax rate of millionaires, baffles me.

Those poor up-trodden rich people,so put upon.


Perhaps a class in economics might educate your opinion on this subject?

(in reply to Owner59)
Profile   Post #: 309
RE: Joe The Plumber: Obama Tax Plan 'Infuriates Me' - 10/19/2008 4:23:51 PM   
Owner59


Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline 		I`ll just use your standard of evidence,and say so.

Next.

_____________________________

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President Obama

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Profile   Post #: 310
RE: Joe The Plumber: Obama Tax Plan 'Infuriates Me' - 10/19/2008 4:37:17 PM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline
quote:


quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

Dude,that is sooooo last century.

The trickle down theory has been proven wrong over the last 8 years.Thanx George.



Evidence? Sources?


59 is inaccurate on this one---

Reagan's own financial people admitted their economic policies were a failure (David Stockman in particular).

And even before that, people were ridiculing Reagan's policies as "Reaganomics" and "Voodoo Economics."

Those people?

Bob Dole and Herbert Walker Bush during the 1980s primary.

That shit don't hunt. It doesn't trickle down......it trickles on us, and not in a good way (think Jonathan Swift).

< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 10/19/2008 5:18:25 PM >

(in reply to Naga)
Profile   Post #: 311
RE: Joe The Plumber: Obama Tax Plan 'Infuriates Me' - 10/19/2008 5:00:46 PM   
Owner59


Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline 		 I stand rebuked...

_____________________________

"As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals"

President Obama

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 312
RE: Joe The Plumber: Obama Tax Plan 'Infuriates Me' - 10/19/2008 5:16:31 PM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		Naw. Just a little background.

(in reply to Owner59)
Profile   Post #: 313
RE: Joe The Plumber: Obama Tax Plan 'Infuriates Me' - 10/19/2008 9:39:01 PM   
Hippiekinkster


Posts: 5512
Joined: 11/20/2007
From: Liechtenstein
Status: offline 		Rich people don't provide jobs. The majority of jobs are created by small businesses. They do that by getting loans from banks to expand or start their enterprises (or use savings, like I did). Those loans are possible because people save. The more they save, the more money becomes available for lending. If people don't save, then the money for banks to lend must be borrowed. Borrowed from the Fed, which in turn borrowed from abroad (mainly China) by heaving the Treasury issue bonds.

So, anyway, I wonder at what point the working-class and middle-class rightwingers will come to understand that the Neocon economic philosophy of borrow-and-spend combined with no oversight has screwed them. When they are living in refrigerator boxes and standing in soup lines?

_____________________________

"We are convinced that freedom w/o Socialism is privilege and injustice, and that Socialism w/o freedom is slavery and brutality." Bakunin

“Nothing we do, however virtuous, can be accomplished alone; therefore we are saved by love.” Reinhold Ne

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 314
RE: Joe The Plumber: Obama Tax Plan 'Infuriates Me' - 10/19/2008 10:36:50 PM   
BitaTruble


Posts: 9779
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Naga

Yes, it is wonderful rhetoric, but it ignores the reality of the situation. It ignores the fact that jobs come from "rich" folks investing their money. If you take away their motivation to invest in business, you kill jobs. That affects everyone.

Taxes act as a brake on the economy. The more you tax people, especially the rich, the more you slow down growth and encourage a depression.


How does an increase in tax take away the motivation to invest especially a slight increase? Especially if taxes haven't been raised for a good long while? It seems to me that if the best way to get rich is to make sure the economy is stimulated then it would be cutting off your nose to spite your face to hoard that money rather than keep investing it and let it grow to recoup the small bit you lost due to a tax increase?

_____________________________

"Oh, so it's just like
Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."


(in reply to Naga)
Profile   Post #: 315
RE: Joe The Plumber: Obama Tax Plan 'Infuriates Me' - 10/19/2008 11:06:31 PM   
MrRodgers


Posts: 10540
Joined: 7/30/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Naga

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

Dude,that is sooooo last century.

The trickle down theory has been proven wrong over the last 8 years.Thanx George.


Evidence? Sources?

quote:

Rich people don`t create jobs,any more that you or I.


Who does? And who pays for it? And actually I do. Maybe you don't, but that is all you can speak for.

quote:

They avoid paying taxes,put businesses off shore,hide money in off shore accounts and game the system.


Forced into that by the one of the worst tax systems in the world. Taxation is violence; theft at gun point by government. You are always justified in protecting yourself from violence.

quote:

Clinton raised taxes on the wealthiest 5% and we had 8 straight years of growth and prosperity,where the poor/middle class got richer and the rich got richer,both.


False growth that was not supported by the system, which has since collapsed. We are right in the middle of that right now.

quote:

Why all these bleeding hearts, crying and bleeding over the tax rate of millionaires, baffles me.

Those poor up-trodden rich people,so put upon.


Perhaps a class in economics might educate your opinion on this subject?

First, trickle down does happen...the problem is...it's a trickle while most (almost all) of the return on efforts for 40 years is the return on capital...not the return on labor.

Evidence is out there...10% of the people own 90% of the wealth. and pay 40% of the taxes. Most of this income is produced by capital gains (selling paper and things) and subject to a 15% federal long term capital gains tax and after only ONE year. While the highest paid labor is taxed at 35%. What a joke.

10% of the people own 85% of ALL stocks.

50% of the people own 1% of the stock and 15% of the wealth and pay 40% of ALL taxes.

The marketplace creates jobs over 90% of which by small businesses and their are no heroes here. If not for you...then sombody else. The fortune 500 has NOT created even ONE new NET job in this country in 40 years but created (moved) an estimated 5-7 million jobs to India, Viet Nam and China in that time.

Corporate America's full time job is REDUCING employment and reducing labor expenses.

What the hell do you mean 'Clinton's' jobs weren't created by 'the sysytem ?' It is and has been the same system all along. Same as now there were the capitalists OVER speculating and every dot.com that went public. There's your bubble created once again by the paper-traders.

Clinton created a fucking surplus and W gave it all back to the wealthiest people in this country, and still DOUBLED our federal debt ot over $TEN (10) TRILLION went to war, created much BIGGER govt. and pandered to the old and created a prescription drug benefit, to benefit the drug cos. as much as the old.

The paper-traders do NOT serve society and create no jobs. They are simply speculators and on new bullshit forms of paper. Which is what has caused the street to go bankrupt and we are redistributing our income up AGAIN to bailout the rich in a $trillion swindle.

And BTW, the US has among the friendliest of any tax environments in all of western civilization.

(in reply to Naga)
Profile   Post #: 316
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