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"transphobic" journalist in line for Stonewal... - 10/20/2008 2:32:05 AM

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Julie Bindel, a radical feminist lesbian, regarded by many as transphobic by virtue of her contributions in a column she writes for the Guardian newspaper has been nominated for a Stonewall award for her journalism

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2007/aug/01/mytransmission

Rumours are now circulating that several organisations have advised Stonewall that they shall not be attending or supporting the awards ceremony, if Ms Bindell is a nominee. They do not wish to be seen to be associated with her views or, as it would appear, an organisation which seeks to celebrate them.

E

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RE: "transphobic" journalist in line for Ston... - 10/20/2008 4:37:41 AM

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I have several issues with this lady's opinions, not in the least being that I completely reject the notion that male/female behavior is not in any way, shape or form biologically based. The fact that she thinks she speaks for all feminists when she says that they ought to go out and destroy gender roles gives me a slightly ill feeling.

Also, her explanation at the beginning of the article backpedaling away from her original statements strikes me as terribly self-serving. I highly doubt that she has ever known some one that is transgendered - aside from the few she met at that debate - and her writings come across as ill-informed, anger-based claptrap.

It is well within the prerogative of these various groups not to attend just as it is her prerogative to spout off whatever nonsense she sees fit. I am really hating that line she wrote about "Good liberals everywhere need to see this stops". Even here she drags her politics with her like an overstuffed suitcase. How about, good people everywhere ought to see that we stop treated transgendered people badly?

One of my favorite authors noted that in the world of feminism, these days the only way to be a true radical is to be a complete nut.

< Message edited by VivaciousSub -- 10/20/2008 4:49:01 AM >

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RE: "transphobic" journalist in line for Ston... - 10/20/2008 7:42:09 PM

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I think Blindel is a bigot pure and simple. Transgendered people have a hard enough life as it is without her diatribes.

I find her arguments no more convincing than a host of similar slyly put anti-gay arguments.

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RE: "transphobic" journalist in line for Ston... - 10/21/2008 1:33:56 AM

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The worst of it ('cause I'm not sure Stonewall are well known outside the UK) - Stonewall is meant to be an LGB campaign group, fighting for rights. www.stonewall.org.uk

All identities are equal, but some identities are more equal than others, it would seem; after those damned trannies are just sooo embarassing....

E

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RE: "transphobic" journalist in line for Ston... - 10/21/2008 4:49:59 AM

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Yes, and the most essential part is - in the original Stonewall-riot trans-people were actively involved. Talk about a non-consensual slap in the face.

For the first time i actually went and singed a petition, whee. :)

heidi

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RE: "transphobic" journalist in line for Ston... - 10/21/2008 5:14:07 AM

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I have to disagree.. I think Bindel raises some very interesting points, well worth discussing.

Do I think that she should have the final say on the life of a transexual? No.. everyone must make their own journey. she is, essentially, commenting from outside.

But I think that she raises one particularily interesting point.. perhaps some people who choose transgender surgery, could consider the option of just living as they were boen biologically but as homosexuals. When they receive councelling, is this option presented to them, or is surgery and gender reassignment the automatic goal?

To try and shut her down instead of just having an open discussion is bigotry and censorship.

< Message edited by scottishdove -- 10/21/2008 5:19:10 AM >

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RE: "transphobic" journalist in line for Ston... - 10/21/2008 6:06:31 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: VivaciousSub
One of my favorite authors noted that in the world of feminism, these days the only way to be a true radical is to be a complete nut.

I've certainly read some diatribes by self-described radical feminists that sounded completely divorced from reality, but that could just be my phallus talking.

The linked article didn't really seem "transphobic" to me, it just sounded as though she's committed to ignoring decades of socio/psychological research due to her personal agenda, with no scientific basis for her own views. Kinda funny to see a liberal feminist playing the "being oppressed by political correctness" card.

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RE: "transphobic" journalist in line for Ston... - 10/21/2008 6:09:49 AM

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One has to ask the question - if another woman (heterosexual) wrote a column for the Guardian, wherein she spouted off that there was no such thing as a lesbian, only women who "needed the right man", do you think Ms Bindel would take it in the same calm, collected measure with which she does the equivalent to the likes of me? There is nothing wrong with her questioning anything of course - what offends is the certainty she espouses in holding religiously to a view which like many articles of faith can de demonstrated to be wrong by scientific evidence and which in their expression generate and support the very prejudices which she would not like attracted to herself. In saying that of course, its only fair to point out too that science can get it wrong in some instances in the diagnosis and treatment of gender identity disorder and its associated conditions, but the factors at work in such errors cannot in any way be laid at the door of either the condition or the science as a whole. Bizarrely perhaps, Ms Bindel is onto something in what she says in this respect - that it is the stereotyping of male and female roles which contributes to the dangerous situation whereby some male crossdressers in particular are obliged to feel shame and then seem to think they can justify themselves by "going to the next step" and seeking out transition to do that, often pretending to symptoms upon which they have been coached in order to secure a treatment which cannot but end badly for them. That Ms Bindel may be in need of some awareness education on the differences between transvestite, transgender and transsexual would however only serve to support my overall judgement of her writing and position and undermine further, if it were possible, any authority by which she might feel enabled to comment on the subject. That her attitude would mitigate against the sort of encounters whereby she might acquire such an awareness is to be lamented. Stonewall may do as it will - her writing after all is tolerably well done even if the subject matter is questionable. But the signal it would send out by making such an award on the strength of her work in this instance is a corrosive one, the effects of which will reach further in the public mind than merely "those damned trannies". E

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RE: "transphobic" journalist in line for Ston... - 10/21/2008 6:13:59 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: scottishdove
.. perhaps some people who choose transgender surgery, could consider the option of just living as they were boen biologically but as homosexuals.

Homosexuality - sexuality
Transgender/Transsexual - identity

Oddly, many M2F transsexuals who get the surgery are homosexual after it (ie they become lesbians)

E

< Message edited by LadyEllen -- 10/21/2008 6:16:23 AM >

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RE: "transphobic" journalist in line for Ston... - 10/21/2008 8:55:17 AM

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Yea, I think that many M-F Trans people are sexually attracted to women - I know I am. I chose to not go through SRS and identify as trans and bisexual. If I did go through the total transformation, I would have still been attracted mainly to women.

I am afraid that I could not get through the article - I try to avoid hate as much as I can and it just smacked as that right wing conservative claptrap to me.

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RE: "transphobic" journalist in line for Ston... - 10/21/2008 12:11:34 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: scottishdove

But I think that she raises one particularily interesting point.. perhaps some people who choose transgender surgery, could consider the option of just living as they were boen biologically but as homosexuals. When they receive councelling, is this option presented to them, or is surgery and gender reassignment the automatic goal?

i agree with you to a certain point, but i feel that you are confusing sexual orientation and gender expression. How is becoming homosexual an answer to someones desire to be perceived as a woman/female in this society? i feel that more flexible gender roles and persons right to define him/herself as he/she wants no matter how that person was born would ease the situation for many.

heidi

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RE: "transphobic" journalist in line for Ston... - 10/21/2008 4:05:39 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

One has to ask the question - if another woman (heterosexual) wrote a column for the Guardian, wherein she spouted off that there was no such thing as a lesbian, only women who "needed the right man", do you think Ms Bindel would take it in the same calm, collected measure with which she does the equivalent to the likes of me?

Oh, that would be a riot! Of course, it would have to pay serious lip service to "transcending stereotypical gender roles" as well. I don't think I would be able to resist tossing some Freud in there and wrecking the whole thing, though.

quote:

Stonewall may do as it will - her writing after all is tolerably well done even if the subject matter is questionable. But the signal it would send out by making such an award on the strength of her work in this instance is a corrosive one, the effects of which will reach further in the public mind than merely "those damned trannies". E

I'm sure there are some in the homosexual political community that resent the way transfolk have been "lumped in" with them. Perhaps the Stonewall folks are amongst them? (I don't know anything about the organization other than what it was named for)

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RE: "transphobic" journalist in line for Ston... - 10/21/2008 4:13:38 PM

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To be honest OMW - I often think its wrong for us to be lumped in with them too!

But whatever the categorisations, I find it ridiculous that someone fighting for their own rights should in any way so much as suggest that others do not deserve theirs.

And (edited to add) the LG bit of LGBT should bear in mind that their claimed right to marry in many ways derives from the odd situation we Ts generate - after all, right now I can marry a woman - post SRS I can marry a man - thats what makes gay marriage bans utterly daft!

E

< Message edited by LadyEllen -- 10/21/2008 4:15:23 PM >

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RE: "transphobic" journalist in line for Ston... - 10/21/2008 5:39:40 PM

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I just got the feeling she was playing devils advocate. I thought she was asking, why is it liberals think we cant say anything bad about transgendered people. Or why cant we question it. She had also made some sort of bad joke about someone being a man in a womans dress. And she got a lot of flack about it.

I guess the point was, if she was transgendred, could she have said that same thing and no one would have freaked out? I wasnt offended by her writing at all. As a matter of fact, I thought she had some valid thoughts on the subject. Certainly worth exploring more of. I have no idea what else she writes, so I can only comment on this one article.

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RE: "transphobic" journalist in line for Ston... - 10/21/2008 10:38:33 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sophia37

I guess the point was, if she was transgendred, could she have said that same thing and no one would have freaked out? I wasnt offended by her writing at all. As a matter of fact, I thought she had some valid thoughts on the subject. Certainly worth exploring more of. I have no idea what else she writes, so I can only comment on this one article.

One academic researcher here in Finland said that the trans-community is now approximately at the same point than the gay and lesbian communities were in the 60's or 70's. With the trans-community we are still talking about same basic rights that all humans should have - rights against discrimination, violence and forced intersectionality.

Personally i see the critique she is getting from this angle. She is attacking a group that has very little rights. Did you know that suicide precentages amongst young trans-people are app. 30%? People like her are not helping anyone. People like her are the ones why i felt for such a long time that i should probably join that 30% because there is no love or acceptance in this world for people like us.

And the comment about a "sacred cow." Please, to me the fact that women can wear both jeans and skirts and men can't is the real sacred cow.

heidi

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RE: "transphobic" journalist in line for Ston... - 10/23/2008 6:09:44 AM

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I missed the "sacred cow" part. So I cant say what that is. But Im curious as to why you think transgendered people have, "very few rights". I think thats what you said. I might be wrong. Very few rights? Dont transgendred people have the same rights as all human beings? I dont think theres some rule book that says this group and this group and this group have rights. But this group and this group and this group have none.

I think what might be true is that trnasgendered people are still a novelty. I think families have a difficult time trying to understand and come to terms with transgendered people. And I think that transgendered people themselves have a hard time explaining to people why they've up and become someone else. The process or going from male to female certainly isnt some secret. But it can be difficult to watch over time, if you're not seeing what the transgendered person is telling you you should be seeing.

I also think theres nothing wrong with discussing whether some people might have been better off staying in the sex they were. I thought somewhere in that essay the woman asked if sometimes we now dont knee jerk push a person into thinking transgendering might be the fix, when perhaps in some cases, staying in ones own sex might be ok as well. I truly believe transgendeing can leave you no better off afterwards than you were before in some cases.

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RE: "transphobic" journalist in line for Ston... - 10/23/2008 7:19:48 AM

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Sophia? please reply to the post you're replying to (Heidi Ann's in this case I think?)? My heart cant take the stress of having stuff attributed to me that I didnt say or imply!

Anyway, my answer to the point you raised (which is a good one) about people being directed down a path which is unsuitable, is given in post 8 paragraph 3, if it your point was directed at me.

E

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RE: "transphobic" journalist in line for Ston... - 10/23/2008 9:25:06 AM

RCdc

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sophia37
Very few rights? Dont transgendred people have the same rights as all human beings? I dont think theres some rule book that says this group and this group and this group have rights. But this group and this group and this group have none.

Hmm... well funny basic things like peeing tend to put transgendered peoples without certain rights. So yes, they have less oppotunity to exercise their rights than non transgendered.

quote:

I think what might be true is that trnasgendered people are still a novelty. I think families have a difficult time trying to understand and come to terms with transgendered people. And I think that transgendered people themselves have a hard time explaining to people why they've up and become someone else.

Only they aren't necessarily becoming 'someone else' - but themselves.

quote:

I also think theres nothing wrong with discussing whether some people might have been better off staying in the sex they were. I thought somewhere in that essay the woman asked if sometimes we now dont knee jerk push a person into thinking transgendering might be the fix, when perhaps in some cases, staying in ones own sex might be ok as well. I truly believe transgendeing can leave you no better off afterwards than you were before in some cases.

There is nothing wrong with discussing - provided you are willing to remain open minded and not stuck in ones own self belief when you have no way of understanding what's going on in another persons brain. Are you transgendered? Do you have a significant relationship with someone who is either at the beginning, during or after their transition? If not, that may be a belief, but it isn't founded in reality nor experience(even vicariously). If you really believe that the road of gender alteration is that simple, you simply have had no real personal experience. It's not a case of just going to a doctor and ordering a 32C or a whole 12 Inches- nor jumping on the first plane to some remote country and having yourself 'done'.

the.dark.

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RE: "transphobic" journalist in line for Ston... - 10/23/2008 11:05:20 AM

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quote:

dangerous situation whereby some male crossdressers in particular are obliged to feel shame

Aww. Poor guys, having to feel shame.

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RE: "transphobic" journalist in line for Ston... - 10/23/2008 12:04:28 PM

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Well RL, its nice that you see no shame, but this is a very real factor in producing incorrect diagnoses and very poor prognoses too (if you consider suicide a poor prognosis that is) that dont help the situation overall or more importantly the individuals who feel that shame and embark on a transition that can only end badly for them.

It also doesnt help the genuine - those of us who tell the medics what and how we really feel and think rather than the coached thoughts and feelings that we're supposed to have by reference to the testimonies of what I can imagine would be the majority of patients presenting for treatment.

If you really, truly dont see that there is shame attached to a male dressing as a female, derived from the fact that the males concerned will be feeling the enormous weight of society's hostility for their behaviour, and that this leads to a yearning for acceptance and some sort of justification for that behaviour, then I'd be most interested in your alternative take on all this?

E

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