RE: The differance between lifestyles (Full Version)

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DavanKael -> RE: The differance between lifestyles (11/7/2008 12:31:16 PM)

Calla said:  The difference, I think, is that Gor isn't -about- the scening or lack of it, it's really focused on the day-to-day life stuff and on the particular Gorean philosophies of being true to oneself, and to one's responsibilities and commitments, at least philosophically.

My reply:  If this is what it's about, I simply must make it a greater priority to procure those books.  'Course, what you described also sounds like what I'd call living D/s as a way of life rather than an occasional roleplay. 
  Davan




oceanwynds -> RE: The differance between lifestyles (11/7/2008 4:22:05 PM)

Colouredin
I just wanted to thank you for posting this question. Been wondering about this myself.

Thanks
oceanwynds




DavanKael -> RE: The differance between lifestyles (11/7/2008 5:51:14 PM)

Iron Bear said:  From a Gorean perspective, Honour, Integrety, Loyalty, Duty, Courage, Family, nature (and the conservation of nature) are key elements and the foundation of their being. Yet others also echo these values who are not Gorean per se.
Honour, Integrety, Loyalty, Duty, Courage, and Honesty are the mark of a MAN.  This is Gorean and yet there are many men who follow these creeds and are not Gorean.
A Gorean MAN will draw a line in the sand and stand that line to defend it with his life if needs be.

My reply:  According to these, I am a man who may be Gorean but biology says otherwise on the man piece and I don't know enough about Gor to claim that descriptor.  Thoughts? 
Davan




WinsomeDefiance -> RE: The differance between lifestyles (11/7/2008 6:24:20 PM)

Fast Reply:

I was collared to a Gorean Master for 6 months, and lived in their home for about 2 years (give or take).  In my time living with them, I've not really seen anything 'different' that made me think there was a  "THEM" vs "BDSM" because it was simply life as usual.  Some engaged in BDSM activities, some didn't - but they all held to a focus of core beliefs that each of them felt was "Gor" in their own eyes.  When I see those who live their lives with BDSM, whatever flavor of it they choose, I see pretty much the same thing.  The only differences, between Gor and "us" are the same differences you will find in those who espouse M/S over D/s or vice versa, or those who espouse SM over TPE or vice versa or any mix of whatever.  People tend to cling to what works for them, and sometimes fear what they don't understand or know.  Or, they simply focus on the semantics or zealous individual's rants, and forget that the most extreme doesn't always represent the majority.

The Gorean slaves and Masters and Free Persons love and laugh and joke around and play and live their lives pretty much the same as everyone else.

I don't subscribe to the Gorean life, because it isn't for me, but I love and adore me quite a lot of Gorean's.  I fondly refer to a few of the Gor Masters as my favorite misogynistic bastards, and they call me that vanilla slut.  Of course my Gorean friends are NOT misogynistic, but don't tell them I said that.  Would ruin my fun.

WinD




ResidentSadist -> RE: The differance between lifestyles (11/7/2008 7:37:14 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: WinsomeDefiance
......  Of course my Gorean friends are NOT misogynistic, but don't tell them I said that.  Would ruin my fun.

You did sign the oath of secrecy about that right?  You don't wanna' blow all those years of unwarranted negative misogynistic PR the Goreans have been getting do you?
 
[:D]




WinsomeDefiance -> RE: The differance between lifestyles (11/7/2008 7:56:30 PM)

Oh darn, keep forgetting to perpetuate the myth.....next thing you know, I'll be telling people what a sweet cuddly bear, pushover you are..

umm...oops




MadRabbit -> RE: The differance between lifestyles (11/7/2008 8:48:47 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rover
Now, what is it that one must decipher in order to achieve a standard by which they *are* Gorean?


It becomes revealed to you in a vision induced by magic Kool-Aid that is given to you after you read the books.




IronBear -> RE: The differance between lifestyles (11/7/2008 11:59:50 PM)

Truely, were we to put a mix of Goreans, Old  Guard, Voivtoruian Households, a variewty of non aligned M/s coiuples and an assortment of D/s folk in a large hall for a social and play time for those interested, it wouyld be hard to pick who is what and which ones are Gorean. If your looking for people sprouting horns on their head, look again. If you expect to hear a group of no noncense folk sprouting Gorean quotes, you will be dissapointed. You will probably comfuse the Old Guard and Goreans because of the ridgid protocols and specific terms (like kajira) being used and if so, you will need to delve into both to be able to separate the two groups.  




colouredin -> RE: The differance between lifestyles (11/8/2008 12:52:01 AM)

FR

I want to thank any and all that contributed to this thread, aside from one or two nasty posts it has remained a reasoned discussion. Alos I want to thank those who identify as Gorean for posting, I know that threads like this can be off putting due to the rows that can insue which is evident by how few Goreans did actualypost.

What it has shown me is what i believed anyway, the differance is largely the aplication of a label and what tha label means to you. Those who ridicule do so without understanding, as with pretty much all else in the world. I do think that people from both sides of the coin are guilty of this i doubt tat this thread has vastly changed perspectives to be honest, but it has given me a more solid foundation for what I already assumed.

People will always be fascinated by Gor, peoplenget misinfomation that draw people to it be that from someone from either side it draws people to either fascination or dislike. Though it is no ones job to dspell those myths I find it sad. I personal hate that i feel like asking a question like this will lead to insult and I find it sad that i fear stating an opinion on the other board or even asking a question. As I said the bigots do come from both sides and i personally think that its something that should be prevented. I understand the menality of protecting people from their own group however that in my view isnt always the right thing.

I do identify as being part of somethin while invlving myself in this way of life, that doesnt mean that i agree with all those that do, it also desnt mean that i cant get on with those that i dont agree with. SA choice of terminology doesnt take the person away, just as an oriantation such as gay or straight make the person any less worth getting to know.

So again I thank those who contributed, im sorry if this post comes off as touchy feel, but that i guess is how i am sometimes.




KatyLied -> RE: The differance between lifestyles (11/8/2008 3:59:26 AM)

quote:

People will always be fascinated by Gor,


I will drop in on the Gor forum just to watch, especially when they have a go at each other.  Not so much fascinating as it is entertaining.




dawntreader -> RE: The differance between lifestyles (11/8/2008 5:07:09 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: KatyLied

quote:

People will always be fascinated by Gor,


I will drop in on the Gor forum just to watch, especially when they have a go at each other.  Not so much fascinating as it is entertaining.



Katylied,
 
People have more of  "a go at each other" on this side of the fence...the archives over here bear witness~




IronBear -> RE: The differance between lifestyles (11/8/2008 5:43:14 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DavanKael

Calla said:  The difference, I think, is that Gor isn't -about- the scening or lack of it, it's really focused on the day-to-day life stuff and on the particular Gorean philosophies of being true to oneself, and to one's responsibilities and commitments, at least philosophically.

My reply:  If this is what it's about, I simply must make it a greater priority to procure those books.  'Course, what you described also sounds like what I'd call living D/s as a way of life rather than an occasional roleplay. 
Davan


Well said Davan, you have placed you finger on the key to the Gorean Lifestyle. generally depending on available finances it is possible to create a Gorean Home close to the books (also depending which civilization you are drawn to) but the most basic tenent for a Gorean Lifestyler is that they life the lifestyle and do not roleplay it when guests arive.  It is the same BTW for the Victorian Lifestyle, we live it so in boith cases it becomes what we are not what we want to be in our fantacies...

On another point and refering to your responce to a post of mine.

quote:

Iron Bear said:  From a Gorean perspective, Honour, Integrety, Loyalty, Duty, Courage, Family, nature (and the conservation of nature) are key elements and the foundation of their being. Yet others also echo these values who are not Gorean per se.
Honour, Integrety, Loyalty, Duty, Courage, and Honesty are the mark of a MAN.  This is Gorean and yet there are many men who follow these creeds and are not Gorean.
A Gorean MAN will draw a line in the sand and stand that line to defend it with his life if needs be.

My reply:  According to these, I am a man who may be Gorean but biology says otherwise on the man piece and I don't know enough about Gor to claim that descriptor.  Thoughts? 
Davan


I was specifically refering to Gorean Free Men but it also applies to Gorean Free Women. I know more than a few who will match a man in these aspects and who will also stand the line to defend their princibles. ywt were you to study human hostory and look at all the great civilizations such as Romans/Greek, Bedouins, Norsemen, Mongols and the Plains Indians of the USA, you will be able to identify the various races at their best which John Norman transposed into his Gor books.. Also much of the philosophy he espouses and which is taken and quoted as Gorean is neither Gorean noit Norman.s own philosophy but has been taken from the works of Friedrich Wilhelm Nietzsche ~ A German Philosopher (October 15, 1844 – August 25, 1900)




Padriag -> RE: The differance between lifestyles (11/8/2008 6:42:45 AM)

Go Nietzsche! [;)]




Padriag -> RE: The differance between lifestyles (11/8/2008 7:03:10 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JustDarkness

quote:

ORIGINAL: colouredin
However even the people who are posting on here say that they dont 'follow' the books in a strict doctrine kind of way


but..what causes this conflict then...
I know it is not the books that cause it..... 

In one word... pride.

Consider it this way... within America people often identify as West Coasters, Midwesterners, Southerners and Notherners.  They are all Americans, they all speak the same language, pledge allegiance to the same flag, spend the same money, obey pretty much the same laws, answer to the same federal government... yet these groups insist on their distinctiveness.

Are they really that distinct?  The differences are cultural... which really means they differ in their customs and mannerisms in some way... most of which are fairly trivial.  But, you will find individuals among each group who very loudly and very proudly insist on just how different their group is from another... because of pride.  Their personal identity is wrapped up in being part of that culture, so when they defend it, they are actually defending their personal self image... and they do so with all the vigor of someone defending their own life.

Its no different with Gor vs BDSM vs Old Guard vs Victorians.  The biggest difference between each is culture... customs and mannerisms... jargon and lingo... ways of doing the same basic things.  Some will defend those differences with great energy, and in such cases I would suspect that upon examination you would find that those individuals have connected who they see themselves as with that particular subculture... the stronger that connection, the more stridently they'll defend it.

None of this is uncommon or unusual... we humans are social creatures, we naturally tend to identify with groups, and identify others by groups.

Personally, I find it a far more interesting question to examine why someone is drawn to identify themselves with BDSM, Goreans, Victorians, Old Guard, etc.




LuckyAlbatross -> RE: The differance between lifestyles (11/8/2008 8:35:33 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: lusciouslips19
I have never understood why someone would take books of fiction and turn them into a way of life. Although I suppose I shouldn't be suprised as people took other books and turned them into religions. As for myself, I have always lived outside of guidelines.

Exactly.  Choosing to be gorean is no different than choosing to be a christian.  Just because the source is fiction doesn't mean the way of life is as well.




MarcEsadrian -> RE: The differance between lifestyles (11/8/2008 9:00:19 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: colouredin

Firstly I do know that there is a specific Gorean forum, however I do think some people misunderstand the original purpose of that forum and I don't want to offend those that do It is not my intention to start a row or a discussion on my laziness want to ask for alls opinions Gorean people do tend to have very clear sets values which rocks, i always see the words honor and respect which are of course pretty good ways to live your life.

There is unfortunately an implicit divide between BDSM and them I think that is probably due to misunderstanding more than anything, I get that if a group of people feels as though they are only being attacked because of their beliefs they close ranks. Its common in most groups. I want to dispel some myths, I don't think that we are actually that different.



Hi Coloured,

My only issue with the Gorean subculture is how it has become a sort of assigned official badge for anyone who rigidly believes in the natural right of male dominance and female submission. I believe it is inappropriate to label an authentic, Male-led relationship based in reality as "Gorean", unless the practitioners involved overtly claim to be. When building a profile, one need only glance at the available lifestyles interests list on this website to see an example of this confusion, where "Female Supremacy" is listed but "Male Supremacy" is not; instead we have "Gorean Lifestyle" as its insinuated corollary. This is an example of either willful or unwillful ignorance—or a subtle bias, in the very least.




IronBear -> RE: The differance between lifestyles (11/8/2008 11:40:19 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MarcEsadrian

My only issue with the Gorean subculture is how it has become a sort of assigned official badge for anyone who rigidly believes in the natural right of male dominance and female submission. I believe it is inappropriate to label an authentic, Male-led relationship based in reality as "Gorean", unless the practitioners involved overtly claim to be. When building a profile, one need only glance at the available lifestyles interests list on this website to see an example of this confusion, where "Female Supremacy" is listed but "Male Supremacy" is not; instead we have "Gorean Lifestyle" as its insinuated corollary. This is an example of either willful or unwillful ignorance—or a subtle bias, in the very least.


It is interseting old chap tht when I was posting to the Gorean Forum and of course belonging to the Gorean Lifestyle, hoiw many strong minded individuals, Masters, who whilst having so much in common woith us and who were most valued posters and contributors, proudly maintained their own distance and individuality by not identifying as Gorean. To me this was a most excelent happening and just showed that most Gorean Lifestylers are not so blinkered or bloody minded as some think to believe the Gor is the only way.  Often I have founf that the points of separation are more semantics and minor differences. In my part as I was being drawn at least socially back to the fould of a bygone era of graciousness, lavish entertaining, good manners, ridgid ettequate ( I love ladies communicating by just using fans) and the dress styles of that regal period, tht I realised that there were for me minor differences in the way I looked at some things (I could no longer view my slave as just a beast. Property and valued, even loved property but not a beast to be disguarded if necessary for example. I would no see my wife/Free Companion in such a secondary light as I would in Gor but as my right hand and partner with me remaining the senior partner of course) and thus it became a matter of honour for me to leave Gor and enter into the building of my current Victorian Lifestyle which allows me still the rigidity and disclipline of Gor and retainng, even enhancing those values which have always as far as I can remember been instilled in me  (Honour, Integrety, Loyalty and Duty etc) as a child. I simply find a sence of ammusement that some of my peers comment that I am still more Gorean in outlook than those who chose to shun me for my choice but who also set themselves up as "Gods of Gor"...

quote:

ts no different with Gor vs BDSM vs Old Guard vs Victorians.  The biggest difference between each is culture... customs and mannerisms... jargon and lingo... ways of doing the same basic things.  Some will defend those differences with great energy, and in such cases I would suspect that upon examination you would find that those individuals have connected who they see themselves as with that particular subculture... the stronger that connection, the more stridently they'll defend it.

None of this is uncommon or unusual... we humans are social creatures, we naturally tend to identify with groups, and identify others by groups.

Personally, I find it a far more interesting question to examine why someone is drawn to identify themselves with BDSM, Goreans, Victorians, Old Guard, etc.

_____________________________

Padriag


Perhaps my friend, the answer you seek is twofold.

  • Firstly, I posit that when se locate something which we can identify with on multable levels we should identify either with it or find a lable which defines our relationship with it. It is a natural thing we humans do in wanting and at times needing or being driven to belong to some group or another.
  • Secondly I cite as an explanation for some, that if we, from either our history or study have experienced something which has made such an impression that it has left a profound mark on us, or excited us to the degree that we want to replicate it in some way, we may well desire to identify with that group, society or activity. certainluy is by doing so, we have a set of guidelines on how and what to do with the possible addition of well established protocols. All hopefully enrich our life and the lives oif those close to us.




KatyLied -> RE: The differance between lifestyles (11/8/2008 1:02:34 PM)

quote:

People have more of "a go at each other" on this side of the fence...the archives over here bear witness~


Sure they do.  But they don't preemptive spew about honor and integrity before doing  it.  [:D]




JustDarkness -> RE: The differance between lifestyles (11/8/2008 2:18:12 PM)

that would be an explanation indeed.

although soemtimes the pride looks like beeing "stuborn"
(from both sides)




catize -> RE: The differance between lifestyles (11/8/2008 3:18:41 PM)

quote:

 Home Stone, caste, and natural order (as defined in the series) are the foundations of being Gorean. the first two the majority of Goreans usually agree on and good discussions on expanding the understanding of them are often had. The last one is where many have points of contention, and differeing views, because they see the word natural and do not want to dig any further into the understanding of it based upon the series.


and Rover said:
quote:

  Any philosophy that espouses a "natural order" that is applied to all of mankind (as opposed to individual relationships) has an inherent sense of superiority.  That's unavoidable and self-evident, for gender superiority or Gor or anything that professes the same.


“Natural order” is indeed the phrase that gives me pause when considering the Gorean tenets. 
Human nature is not so tidily summed up. 
If all sub-sets of humans (gender, age, race, sexual orientation, etc.) acted within what is socially deemed the “natural” parameters of their group, then that philosophy would never need to be understood, addressed or debated. 
If it was reality, then no one would chafe against their ‘natural’ role as defined by that society. 
I see it not only as a means to feel superior, but also view it as a right vs wrong, a good vs bad; very unproductive and unnecessary polemic. 
I saw a book title today that resonated with me:  “Just because I’m right doesn’t make you wrong”.




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