The differance between lifestyles (Full Version)

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colouredin -> The differance between lifestyles (11/7/2008 2:14:17 AM)

Firstly I do know that there is a specific Gorean forum, however i do think some people misunderstand the original purpose of that forum and I dont want to offend those that do It is not my intention to start a row or a discussion on my lazyness.I want to ask for alls opinions Gorean people do tend to have very clear sets values which rocks, i always see the words honour and respect which are of course pretty good ways to live your life.

There is unfortunatly an implicit divide between BDSM and them I think that is probably due to misunderstanding more than anything, i get that if a group of people feels as though they are only being attacked becuase of their beliefs they close ranks. Its common in most groups. I want to dispel some myths, i dont think that we are actually that differant.

I tried to stat a post there yesterday but was told to look it up myself and that it had been discussed before. I am sure this too has been discussed before because there are no new topics, there really arent and if someone wants to tell me that i would really rather you didnt waste your breath.

Ok so heres the deal, I want people to say what makes them whateve oriantation they are, what that means to them (eg the gorean honour etc) and how they percieve that to be differant. I want it to be kept light hearted please, i really think that this could teach us something i really do.

My personal perseption is there isnt much differance, most people reffer to their oriantation as just being somethin that they are, something that is dfficult to ignore and is a part of them. The main differance that I can see is that there is a percieved sense that Goreans all have the same rules, everything is definable, maybe it is I wouldnt know becsause most questions along those lines lead to the read the book response,also websites etc arent all that clear whether there is a dfferance in opinion about what it means to be Gorean. I think think that for most there isnt a big differance, but I also think that for most into BDSM there isnt really either, we just dont like to think that there is a set of rules, like my post yesterday about it being our way, we are soo keen to be original and differant we wont accept that we have any common traits.

So where Goreans embrace a common philosophy and recognise themselevs as being a group people in BDSM swear blind that they are all totoally differant, when fundementall they arent really.

Ok im expecting to be shouted at now. Oh well.



JustDarkness -> RE: The differance between lifestyles (11/7/2008 3:55:20 AM)

quote:

themselevs as being a group people in BDSM


may say they are not with in BDSM..and often you see that in how they respond to outsiders.
(and outsiders respond the same way to them)

I had a kajira that used to live as a 24/7 slave..I read the gorean books...I like the ideas from the book...but I prefer nicely to do my own thing  and not to try to fit..

See a book can be read in many ways. I read the gorean books in a certain way..and liked them. I read them my way..not the "real Gorean way" as soem want me to believe. And that is ok....peopel should be happy the way they live. But sadly there is a lott of shit going on between bdsm and Goreans by times.
(And between online and real time Goreans also btw)



Rover -> RE: The differance between lifestyles (11/7/2008 4:03:30 AM)

It's my opinion that there aren't very many differences amongst the two, though the differences that exist are fairly fundamental.
 
Here are a few of the differences I've observed:
 
1.  Gor employs gender based dominance, whereas BDSM does not.
 
2.  Strict adherants to Gor do not engage in B/D and S/M for the sake of enjoyment/pleasure (ie: they do not "scene"), whereas BDSM does.
 
3.  Gor requires fealty to a set of common principles as expressed in the John Norman books, whereas BDSM has no common doctrine.
 
4.  Gor is adaptive, as much in the Norman books cannot be realisticly employed.  As a result, there is much infighting about what and who *is* Gorean.  I'm not sure if that equates to the propensity for some folks in BDSM to talk about who *is* or *isn't* a "real" Dominant, submissive, slave, etc.
 
5.  Gor has a sincere desire to be portrayed and accepted as "better" than BDSM.  Not as a personal choice, but as an absolute.  Goreans will often counter that such a statement is evidence of insecurity on the part of BDSM, rather than superiority on the part of Gor.  But frankly, I believe that is a flimsy defense.
 
6.  Gor has evolved in much the same way as the mythical version of the "Old Guard".
 
John



colouredin -> RE: The differance between lifestyles (11/7/2008 4:35:04 AM)

Jusrdarkness, I didnt say they were a group within BDSM the sentence you quoted was in fact misquoted and i was stating them as two differant groups



RCdc -> RE: The differance between lifestyles (11/7/2008 4:51:08 AM)

Colouredingone - I am going to thrust this out there hey.
I don't see Gor as the same as BDSM
But then, I don't see Ms or Ds the same as BDSM either.
 
I personally find it a bit fucked up and confusing sticking Ds and Ms into 'BDSM' - as though they are all part of the same thing.  They aren't.  At least not in our world.  I know there is this big push to combine everything into one neat little box of BDSM.  Nah - to me, that is like certain peeps want to try and make everyone fit in, to make it inclusive.  That's pretty blergh to me.
 
I am a snob, and I am a person who believe in class and that you cannot alter what you are - only enhance it.  And that you shouldn't try to be anything other than what you are and have the potential to be.  The same goes for this whole thang.
 
And I don't want you to get shouted at - so anyone who does is gonna have to shout passed me.[:D][sm=duel.gif]
 
the.dark.



IrishMist -> RE: The differance between lifestyles (11/7/2008 4:52:02 AM)

I almost agree with Rover; almost being that while his points are, to some degree correct; they are not wholly correct.

quote:

1.  Gor employs gender based dominance, whereas BDSM does not.

This is partially correct in that while FC's would be seen as 'dominant' to slaves; within the big picture, they are still submissive.
quote:

  2.  Strict adherants to Gor do not engage in B/D and S/M for the sake of enjoyment/pleasure (ie: they do not "scene"), whereas BDSM does.


This  is not true. Some very strict adherents DO 'play' in the same sense that those within BDSM do. However, their relationships are not based on BDSM; it is nothing more than a 'side dish' to them; they can take it or leave it. For them, it is the dynamic that should always be upheld first.
quote:

3.  Gor requires fealty to a set of common principles as expressed in the John Norman books, whereas BDSM has no common doctrine.

Gor and BDSM are more alike than you realize. Neither adheres to a 'strict set of guidelines or rules'; both are able to bend to fit the 'user'. While Gor DOES use a specific set of ethics and morals as their base; not all consider that to be the only set; nor do they consider it to be something that can not be shaped around the person, so to speak.
quote:

4.  Gor is adaptive, as much in the Norman books cannot be realisticly employed.  As a result, there is much infighting about what and who *is* Gorean.  I'm not sure if that equates to the propensity for some folks in BDSM to talk about who *is* or *isn't* a "real" Dominant, submissive, slave, etc.

Actually, the Goreans I have met in real life...notice I said in real life...do not even bother with such incidentals. They wait for a person to ''prove' themselves; not as a Gorean, but as a person of honor.
On the message boards, nine times out of ten, the arguments come from those who shout the loudest that they are Gorean and everyone should acknowledge such a claim. [:D] We tend to snicker at such arrogance.
quote:

5.  Gor has a sincere desire to be portrayed and accepted as "better" than BDSM.  Not as a personal choice, but as an absolute.  Goreans will often counter that such a statement is evidence of insecurity on the part of BDSM, rather than superiority on the part of Gor.  But frankly, I believe that is a flimsy defense.

I disagree. I have never met a Gorean yet who insists that they are better than those who are  into BDSM only. In fact, it has been my experience, that they go out of their way to seperate themselves completly from any mentioon of being compared to, or part of, the BDSM groups.

It's important to note that Goreans have very little to no tolerance for online role-play. Many times, the role-players portray themselves as the 'real Goreans'; what is seen online in such cases has no comparison to how a Gorean will behave or treat others in  real life.



OrionTheWolf -> RE: The differance between lifestyles (11/7/2008 5:01:02 AM)

I must say that I am very impressed with the posts so far. I am not going to pick nit's, as that would serve no purpose but I am glad that there are some that have met non-RP Goreans and can tell there is a huge difference between those that live it, and those that play at it.



JustDarkness -> RE: The differance between lifestyles (11/7/2008 5:17:36 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: colouredin

Jusrdarkness, I didnt say they were a group within BDSM the sentence you quoted was in fact misquoted and i was stating them as two differant groups


how can a quote be misquoted?
But ok...I said they see themselfs often as not with in bdsm , so in the end we agree.
And I can understand that..because I don't see myself as BDSM-er either....lol



IrishMist -> RE: The differance between lifestyles (11/7/2008 5:20:34 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JustDarkness

quote:

ORIGINAL: colouredin

Jusrdarkness, I didnt say they were a group within BDSM the sentence you quoted was in fact misquoted and i was stating them as two differant groups


how can a quote be misquoted?
Anyway..I said they see themselfs often as not with in bdsm , so in the end we agree.

Actually, if you take the time to go back and read/look at the PART of the quote that you used...she is correct...you DID misquote her.



JustDarkness -> RE: The differance between lifestyles (11/7/2008 5:21:25 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: IrishMist
Actually, if you take the time to go back and read/look at the PART of the quote that you used...she is correct...you DID misquote her.


I copy pasted the thing .
or do you mean the context is wrong?

**yes agree...I saw I misread afther 10 times reading.**

Anyway.. the conclusion IS the same.
(wanted to try the caps also :P )



KatyLied -> RE: The differance between lifestyles (11/7/2008 5:22:13 AM)

quote:

There is unfortunatly an implicit divide between BDSM and them I think that is probably due to misunderstanding more than anything,


It's the complete opposite.  There is a divide because many people understand that they do not want to be Gorean and have no desire to follow the Norman books.



IrishMist -> RE: The differance between lifestyles (11/7/2008 5:24:25 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JustDarkness

quote:

ORIGINAL: IrishMist

quote:

ORIGINAL: JustDarkness

quote:

ORIGINAL: colouredin

Jusrdarkness, I didnt say they were a group within BDSM the sentence you quoted was in fact misquoted and i was stating them as two differant groups


how can a quote be misquoted?
Anyway..I said they see themselfs often as not with in bdsm , so in the end we agree.

Actually, if you take the time to go back and read/look at the PART of the quote that you used...she is correct...you DID misquote her.


I copy pasted the thing

/sigh

Ok then

THIS is what she said
quote:

  So where Goreans embrace a common philosophy and recognise themselevs as being a group

AND THIS IS WHAT YOU QUOTED HER AS SAYING
quote:

  themselevs as being a group people in BDSM


Understand where the 'misquote' is coming from  now? Or do we need to go over it again?



colouredin -> RE: The differance between lifestyles (11/7/2008 5:25:26 AM)

Fair point the.darkness and I would agree with you, i figured just calling it BDSM would be easier in the OP because that is what some do consider it.

Also I agree that you cant fundementally change what or who you are, that you are compelled by various hings, but i do think you can change attitudes towards what you are.

Thankyou to both Rover and Irishmist, there are elements of both of your posts that I agree with, I think it very much depends on who you are talking to or where you get your infomation about Goreans. Just like with people involved in D/s there will be people that I personally dont agree with, if someone only gets their perspective iti is no wonder that they view D/s like that.

It links to what the.darkness says about BDSM, its a list of activites, D/s isnt but if people only see it as the BDSM part its understandablethat it is viewed as a game. I have spoke to people who distance themselves fom BDSM because of the activites, that isnt a distance from D/s but often they lump the two together. I have however heard real life Goreans place a value judgement on it, just as i have heard real life D's and s's who place a value judgment on  Goreans, but thats human nature, you will get it with anything



JustDarkness -> RE: The differance between lifestyles (11/7/2008 5:26:31 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: IrishMist

sigh

Ok then

THIS is what she said
quote:

  So where Goreans embrace a common philosophy and recognise themselevs as being a group

AND THIS IS WHAT YOU QUOTED HER AS SAYING
quote:

  themselevs as being a group people in BDSM


Understand where the 'misquote' is coming from  now? Or do we need to go over it again?


read up :P
and don't act so upset

my god...you will not die because I misread...calm down



IrishMist -> RE: The differance between lifestyles (11/7/2008 5:28:23 AM)

quote:

read up :P
and don't act so upset

my god...you will not die because I misread...calm down

LMAO
What makes you think I am upset? Seriously, if you think that, then you have not been exposed to me enough. [8D]



IronBear -> RE: The differance between lifestyles (11/7/2008 5:30:19 AM)

I agree with IrishMist here, Some of you know I spent almost ten years as a Gorean Master living a Gorean Lifestyle. I have many friends (all ex military and most ex special forces as am I and interrestingly enough nearly all of them are Native American) who still are living the Gorean Lifestyle and practiing those princlples. Than I moved on to what is even more my natural lifestyle than Gor was, was siply a driving need to bring back those values, manners and ettequate of the Victorian Period. Much of what I do is so close to Gorean that it doesn't matter and I will train any slave collared to both Bruin Cottage and myself as though they were Gorean and expect the same high standards.

Gor and the Victorian Lifestyles are neither slave nor BDSM based. owning slaves is just on og the perks but one can happily and veryu successfully live either lifestyle slaveless and without BDSM. Owning a slave does entain some form of bondage and certainly disclipline with both not being a game or playtime.  Thus those of us who do become involved in BDSM and as such mingle qith the ommunity, do so for our own pleasure. On a personal footnote, it has been my experience that the shunning or avoidance of Goreans by the wider BDSM community is often because some pseudo Goreans have pontificated and mislerad those arounf them. Certainly most Goreans tell it like it is without regard if it offends or not. That Goreans are feared incase they sleeo slaves from non Gorean Dominants is BS unless a slave makes comparisons and finds she prefers the Gorean way of life. But tht is just life inside and outside the world of kink isn't it?



JustDarkness -> RE: The differance between lifestyles (11/7/2008 5:30:58 AM)

We had once a discussion in a certain thread in the Gorean forum about this same issue.
Personally I thought making 1 forum would be the best to bring both groups together. But then some one mentioned they didn't want to be part of BDSM.
To me ..then..it looked weird, because the Gorean forum is still a sub-forum on a BDSM website.



MistresseLotus -> RE: The difference between lifestyles (11/7/2008 5:31:02 AM)

I am a free thinking, dominant woman because I don't base my reality on porn stories or science fiction novels.



lusciouslips19 -> RE: The differance between lifestyles (11/7/2008 5:31:25 AM)

I have never understood why someone would take books of fiction and turn them into a way of life. Although I suppose I shouldn't be suprised as people took other books and turned them into religions. As for myself, I have always lived outside of guidelines.



JustDarkness -> RE: The differance between lifestyles (11/7/2008 5:32:26 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: IrishMist

quote:

read up :P
and don't act so upset

my god...you will not die because I misread...calm down

LMAO
What makes you think I am upset? Seriously, if you think that, then you have not been exposed to me enough. [8D]


lol [:D] I don't regret that..exposure was enough for today   grin

quote:

  would take books of fiction and turn them into a way of life


some people listen to Oprah or Cosby and follow their suggestions. :P  (or dr Phil)
When I read the gorean books...it wasn't something new...it was already something I liked and knew.
It was just a world that was fully as I had in mind (not every detail).
Became more like a reminder..then actually a guide to live. (for me).
Others chose to fully live like it in detail and that is ok. All involved choose too.



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